Suspension parts/advice

[CanoeSniffer]

ChimpOnGas said:

The polar opposite of the above strategy being what a lot of Carlos Fandango Chimaera owners seem to do, which is fit a set of of budget rose jointed adjustable coil overs, adjust them a bit too hard, fit a set of 17" wheels (or worst still 18s), and finally shod them with highly inappropriate low profile tyres.

I take it I'd be commiting the cardinal sin then by fitting Gaz Golds to complement my 17" wheels and 40/45mm sidewalls then Dave?

In my defence I'll be keeping a set of track and a set of road wheels/tyres, the track wheels being the dinged up 17s and I'll be dropping the sizes for the road wheels, as I do agree with your comments!

I guess you're a fan of the original Bilsteins? I'm completely new to all this playing with suspension malarkey and a refurb for mine (rather than replacement) isn't entirely off the table so any insight would be welcome!

[QBee]

CanoeSniffer said:

ChimpOnGas said:

The polar opposite of the above strategy being what a lot of Carlos Fandango Chimaera owners seem to do, which is fit a set of of budget rose jointed adjustable coil overs, adjust them a bit too hard, fit a set of 17" wheels (or worst still 18s), and finally shod them with highly inappropriate low profile tyres.

I take it I'd be commiting the cardinal sin then by fitting Gaz Golds to complement my 17" wheels and 40/45mm sidewalls then Dave?

In my defence I'll be keeping a set of track and a set of road wheels/tyres, the track wheels being the dinged up 17s and I'll be dropping the sizes for the road wheels, as I do agree with your comments!

I guess you're a fan of the original Bilsteins? I'm completely new to all this playing with suspension malarkey and a refurb for mine (rather than replacement) isn't entirely off the table so any insight would be welcome!

If you are planning on taking the car on track multiple times, then adjustables are pretty essential I would say, as you need to make the front as stiff as possible on track to avoid front end dive under heavy braking, and roll on corners, but as compliant as possible on the road.
I had my 80% road and 20% track car on GGPs for about two years and thought they were great. I beefed up the springs considerably too (450 front and 400 rear seemed the best compromise). Before that I had Gaz Nickels, and they felt fine too.
I am only not on Gaz dampers now because a set of Racing Reds came up at a too-good-to-refuse price and I changed them over. I sold the GGPs. I do rate the Racing Reds, but you cannot get them now.
If you are buying new rather than used, then GGPs are about £700 IIRC and Gaz Monos are about £1000 fitted. Nitrons are around £1300-1500 fitted. Of those I would go the extra half mile and be happy with Gaz Monos. Being a monotube, they handle the bumps of our appalling roads better than GGPs, and are a better track damper too.
I know people rave about Nitrons. I haven't tried them so cannot comment.
The 2016 TVR race champion, Mat Smith, won the championship on Gaz Monos, humbling many a more powerful car. But he's a better driver than i will ever be.

[WokingWedger]

I too have Racing Reds and found them a great improvement of the old Bilsteins (but maybe new Bilsteins would also have been a great improvement).

I think I read some where that RRs were actually made in the same factory as Nitrons but different branding. (could have dreamed that though)

What are you doing regarding suspension bushes Mike ?

Polybush or Metalastik ?

[s p a c e m a n]

The cheapest golds delivered that I found when I did mine a few years ago was from balance motorsport...

https://balancemotorsport.co.uk/gaz-gold-professio...

No problems with mine after about 20k miles of abuse and no rattles from them yet either

[phazed]

^^^^^^^ he is a knoladgable and good guy to deal with.

[ChimpOnGas]

CanoeSniffer said:

I take it I'd be commiting the cardinal sin then by fitting Gaz Golds to complement my 17" wheels and 40/45mm sidewalls then Dave?

In my defence I'll be keeping a set of track and a set of road wheels/tyres, the track wheels being the dinged up 17s and I'll be dropping the sizes for the road wheels, as I do agree with your comments!

I guess you're a fan of the original Bilsteins? I'm completely new to all this playing with suspension malarkey and a refurb for mine (rather than replacement) isn't entirely off the table so any insight would be welcome!

The truth is one man's hard and unyielding suspension is another man's soft and compliant, the whole suspension thing is so subjective you can't really prescribe the perfect set up over a forum because everyone's expectations are different.

I can only speak from experience, and base my comments on a personal desire to achieve the best ride quality and refinement possible from a car that by design is inherently firm and subject to vibration.

I do not track my car, it is exclusively used on the road and lets be honest our roads are not good these days. For the first two years of owning my Chimaera I ran the original Bilsteins, they gave an excellent ride but perhaps were getting a little tired, so seduced by the sexy looks and their adjustability I fitted a set of Gaz Gold Pros.

Initially the GGPs gave a jittery ride, this did diminish as the springs settled and the dampers bedded in but over the next 5 years this trait was never completely lost. I should also point out I spent the first year of running the GGPs adjusting them in a bid to find their sweet spot, in the end I came to a compromise setting and had to admit to myself they were never going to give me the ride quality I'd hoped for.

Finally at year 5 and after many thousands of GGP miles my rear units started leaking, so to just keep the car on the road while I arranged to have my GGPs refurbished I fitted my old crusty set of original Bilsteins. The results were completely unpredicted, as soon as I fitted the old Billies the car became so much nicer to drive and way way quieter, Ok so I'd just spent the last 1000 miles or more on shagged GGPs but I felt there was more to the comparison than that.

A week later I was removing the old Billies and fitting my newly refurbished GGPs back on the car, obviously the difference was significant when compared with how they performed when leaking but the jittery ride was back. My short time with the old Billies really started to get me thinking if the differences between them & the GGPs ran deeper than I'd previously given credit to.

I started to wonder if fitting the GGPs all those years ago was somewhat of a mistake given my expectations of ride quality and the way I use my car. I looked at reconditioning my old Billies which lead me to a guy called Ben Lang, Ben advertises TVR Bilstein suspension kits on eBay and initially I had no knowledge of his credentials.

A bit of investigation soon revealed Ben Lang was actually the chief chassis engineer at TVR for a period, his main work there involved working closely with the German engineers from Bilstein to develop the suspension for the then new Mk2 Tuscan and Segaris, two cars that were widely praised my the motoring press as having far superior handling than all TVR models that had come before.

Chatting to Ben revealed much of what was learned and developed on the Mk2 Tuscan and Segaris could be directly applied to earlier TVR models like my Chimaera. Ben who now works as the chief chassis & suspension engineer at Ariel of Ariel Atom fame gave me a lot of time on the phone and worked with me to design a spring rate and damper valving combination that would work best on my car and deliver the ride quality I was seeking.

The results were nothing short of outstanding, removing my now newly refurbished GGPs for the first time I felt I was running a fair and subjective back to back test. Gone was the fidgety ride that was always a feature of the GGPs and gone were the clicking & clacking noises that had proved impossible to pin down but I now know to be the GGP rose joints.

My new Mk4 Bilsteins (Tuscan 's' spec) delivered a genuinely excellent ride compared with anything I had run before, for the first time my Chimaera felt planted in a way I never expected it could. Oddly my steering felt way more direct and connected, and my brakes felt sharper and more powerful, two benefits I wasn't expecting but very welcome benefits over my newly refurbished GGPs all the same.

In all the above you may have noticed I have not directly discussed the topic of handling, the truth is I'd always felt the car handled well on the GGPs.. until that is I moved to my new Mk4 Bilsteins. What I learned from all this was while the car handled well on the GGPs on smooth roads, the ride they gave on any broken surface was such that the car was significantly slower than it is on my new Bilsteins.

Being honest with ourselves the truth is UK roads are seldom bowling green smooth, in summary I have found my Mk4 Bilsteins perform infinitely better over a much much bigger range of road surfaces. The thing is my Bilstein equipped Chimaera now handles equally as well if not better on smooth surfaces at it did on the GGPs, but as soon as the road becomes anything other than a billiard table surface the Mk4 Bilsteins are light years better.

I conclude in the real world, on real roads, the Mk4 Bilsteins are in another class. This universal compliance and far broader range of surface tolerance is a clear indication to me of product quality, the superior performance of the Mk4 Bilsteins and a direct result of all the development work completed by Ben Lang and the team of suspension engineers from Bilstein.

My guess is even on a track a Chimaera on GGPs running back to back against another Chimaera on Mk4 Bilsteins would not be miles ahead and may in certain cases be slower. Then as soon as it's time to drive home from the track day on public roads I know which car I'd choose every time.

The new Mk4 Bilsteins are ride height adjustable via snap rings that locate the springs saddles in different positions dictated by grooves machined in the damper bodies. Unlike the GGPs the damper rates are fixed, but as they have been carefully valved to deliver the correct compression & rebound in the first place there really is no need to be constantly fiddling with them as I found myself doing with my GGPs.

All the above is clearly subjective, it is merely my personal experience and findings after running newly refurbished GGPs back to back and on the same day with my new set of Mk4 Bilsteins. My new Mk4 Bilsteins don't look as sexy as the GGPs and they don't offer damping adjustment without stripping and revalving them... but in every other respect it is my personal pinion they are night and day better than a set of Gaz Gold Pros.



Have a read of my suspension changes and the Mk4 Bilstein upgrade I implemented here....

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Gaz suspension isn't terrible but it is at the budget end of things, their design is clearly aimed at the track day enthusiast but personally even if I was going to track my car.... having experienced the Mk4 Bilsteins I would never go back to GGPs!

And for the road where if we're honest with ourselves we all spend 98% of our time... there really is no comparison

[ClassicChimaera]

Put simply its all in them mothers of bump stops fitted

[ChimpOnGas]

ClassicChimaera said:

Put simply its all in them mothers of bump stops fitted

If only suspension design & engineering really was that simple Alun!

[ClassicChimaera]

I'm about to have these checked over by Gaz, might even fit them and I bet a Tenner I'll like them now I have soft tyre's

These are 4 years old and still in good fettle.

[portzi]

ChimpOnGas said:

ClassicChimaera said:

Put simply its all in them mothers of bump stops fitted

If only suspension design & engineering really was that simple Alun!

Ben's dampners look Like a fantastic bit of kit and definitely an upgrade from the originals.

Price wise are they the same or close to the nitron NTR1 dampner at about £1200 for a set of 4?

[Matthew Poxon]

Just to mirror CoG's comments. I also have Mk4 Billies on mine, they have been fitted for over 4 years now, no issues, perfectly complaint on the road and respectable on track as well.

[ClassicChimaera]

portzi said:

Ben's dampners look Like a fantastic bit of kit and definitely an upgrade from the originals.

Price wise are they the same or close to the nitron NTR1 dampner at about £1200 for a set of 4?

And this causes me many sleepless nights trying to decide which to have!
Ride height changes can be very useful in setting your car up for different driving conditions especially the rake so I'm not sure I'll be happy with the Billies for than single reason.
Truth is Mathews Griff on grippy tyre's on the older spec but newish Bilsteins body attitude on a track when I was behind him seemed excellent so ?

[portzi]

ClassicChimaera said:

portzi said:

Ben's dampners look Like a fantastic bit of kit and definitely an upgrade from the originals.

Price wise are they the same or close to the nitron NTR1 dampner at about £1200 for a set of 4?

And this causes me many sleepless nights trying to decide which to have!
Ride height changes can be very useful in setting your car up for different driving conditions especially the rake so I'm not sure I'll be happy with the Billies for than single reason.
Truth is Mathews Griff on grippy tyre's on the older spec but newish Bilsteins body attitude on a track when I was behind him seemed excellent so ?

Thats a "Yes then" , I must admit I prefer the larger diameter bushing on the Billies compared to the nitron spherical bushes. The billies look to give alot more support in a potential weaker part of the TVR chassis, this as I have noticed has been addressed on the Cerbera and the T-cars, giving the suspension top mount a very substantial and rigid mounting points, which must give increased stability of the dampner when it is dealing with the transfer of forces put through it during driving.

[ChimpOnGas]

portzi said:

Ben's dampners look Like a fantastic bit of kit and definitely an upgrade from the originals.

Price wise are they the same or close to the nitron NTR1 dampner at about £1200 for a set of 4?

Cheaper mate!

I paid just under £1,000 for my full set of Mk4 Bilsteins, it may be even slightly cheaper if you don't need them bespoke valved & sprung as I did.

On price their nearest competitor will be Gaz Monos which seem to be well liked, but I wanted to move on from rose joints which aren't really road friendly in my opinion.

Mk4 Billies are the absolute shizzle, you get high quality OEM German made suspension that just works brilliantly straight out of the box. It is also supported by both the highly respected and well established company that is Bilstein, and the former cheif chassis engineer at TVR.

And if you need a cheaper suspension solution than what £1000 buys you, the best option by far will be to get your original Bilsteins fully refurbished.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 15th February 14:15

[ClassicChimaera]

portzi said:

Thats a "Yes then" , I must admit I prefer the larger diameter bushing on the Billies compared to the nitron spherical bushes. The billies look to give alot more support in a potential weaker part of the TVR chassis, this as I have noticed has been addressed on the Cerbera and the T-cars, giving the suspension top mount a very substantial and rigid mounting points, which must give increased stability of the dampner when it is dealing with the transfer of forces put through it during driving.

Absolutely and it's something I've been looking closer at when at Powers the other week.

Before I do any of that I'm getting my Protech shocks re sprung and possibly re valved because other than them being to soft have been very consistent on the damping front. Since putting big brakes on the rebound button has been very useful.

Im hoping for road use, new heavier springs combined with softer tyre's will be my perfect combination.
For now,,,,,,

[ClassicChimaera]

ChimpOnGas said:

Cheaper, I paid just under £1,000 for the full set, it may be slightly cheaper if you don't need them bespoke valved & sprung as I did.

On price their nearest competitor will be Gaz Monos which seem to be well liked, but I wanted to move on from rose joints which aren't really road friendly in my opinion.

Mk4 Billies are the absolute shizzle, you get high quality OEM German made suspension that just works brilliantly straight out of the box. It is also supported by both the highly respected and well established company that is Bilstein, and the former cheif chassis engineer at TVR.

And if you need a cheaper suspension solution than what £1000 buys you, the best option by far will be to get your original Bilsteins fully refurbished.

Fully agree.
What ride height adjustment can you make with your Billies.
The reason I ask is I've increased my front tyre size up from standard and it's effected ride height by a good 8-10 mm at the front.
Can you adjust them slightly ?
Cheers

Arrrr, I see the rings on your pic
These are yours set to height?
If so there already close to there upper settings. Is that about 10 mm steps ?

Sorry OP if someone has some cheap shocks he might have.

Edited by ClassicChimaera on Wednesday 15th February 14:23

[portzi]

ClassicChimaera said:

Absolutely and it's something I've been looking closer at when at Powers the other week.

Before I do any of that I'm getting my Protech shocks re sprung and possibly re valved because other than them being to soft have been very consistent on the damping front. Since putting big brakes on the rebound button has been very useful.

Im hoping for road use, new heavier springs combined with softer tyre's will be my perfect combination.
For now,,,,,,

Very interesting
So is Powers looking at doing any chassis modifications in regards to the dampners and wishbones for the chimaera and Griffith chassis?

[ClassicChimaera]

portzi said:

Very interesting
So is Powers looking at doing any chassis modifications in regards to the dampners and wishbones for the chimaera and Griffith chassis?

Probably,,, if you asked.
Sorry Mark I meant I was looking at the Cerb and T car chassis with some envy at the strength.

[portzi]

ClassicChimaera said:

portzi said:

Very interesting
So is Powers looking at doing any chassis modifications in regards to the dampners and wishbones for the chimaera and Griffith chassis?

Probably,,, if you asked.
Sorry Mark I meant I was looking at the Cerb and T car chassis with some envy at the strength.

Your quite correct Alun, Someone like Powers could do wonders with the original chassis if the right client came along. I have seen the sportmotive EVO chassis which looks very impressive, but as with everything it has its cost.

[Matthew Poxon]

ClassicChimaera said:

And this causes me many sleepless nights trying to decide which to have!
Ride height changes can be very useful in setting your car up for different driving conditions especially the rake so I'm not sure I'll be happy with the Billies for than single reason.
Truth is Mathews Griff on grippy tyre's on the older spec but newish Bilsteins body attitude on a track when I was behind him seemed excellent so ?

Don't forget TVR Parts supply the parts required to upgrade the Mk4 bilstiens to a fully adjustable platform in terms of ride height:

http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...

I believe someone on here did do this upgrade.