Are TVR's Quality cars?
Discussion
well said Rich.....oh, for the record, mine has been reliable too, sorry. I think the definition of thoroughbred (pure bred) refers more to pureness of purpose and design rather than not having any 'donor' parts, something no car on the planet can lay claim to (gearboxes, springs, dampers, filters, alternators etc)
Quality of design -yes
Quality of performance - yes
Quality of build - hmm. For the bits you can see I would say yes. Under the surface its a bit too Heath-Robinson for me to call it a quality car.
When you consider the performance/pounds ratio tho' it all pales into insignificance.
Would I buy a new one - the deposit has been paid!
Quality of performance - yes
Quality of build - hmm. For the bits you can see I would say yes. Under the surface its a bit too Heath-Robinson for me to call it a quality car.
When you consider the performance/pounds ratio tho' it all pales into insignificance.
Would I buy a new one - the deposit has been paid!
RichB said: Hang on a minute your new to TVR ownership yet you’re telling us that we are in for a shock? What have you discovered in 2 months that we aren’t aware of after 5, 10 or 15 years ownership… You tell us that TVR are “not too hot on records”. Now forgive me but if you are new to TVR how do you know this? I have been to the factory a number of times and have actually been impressed by the records they do keep, Mike who does the end-of-build test drives was even able to look up his notes on the test for my first TVR a 1992 S3c, not bad eh? People seem all too ready to “slag-off” the factory without any facts so on what basis do you make your judgement?
Also it’s interesting that you say “The parts that work reliably on the car are not TVR components they are from specialist thoroughbred car builders like Fords, Vauxhall, VW” Well you seem to have an issue with having to prime the oil filter yet your argument is self defeating because (as Steve Heath has already pointed out to you) the engine is a Rover (previously Buick) V8 lump. You must have known that, so why contradict your self? p.s. Did you really refer to Vauxhall as a specialist thoroughbred car builder? Oh, what the heck you’re entitled to your opinion!
I must say Ivan, you will be missing out on a wonderful part of TVR ownership if you only use your car on sunny days, leaving it in it’s place in the garage the rest of the time. If you really know so much about TVRs you will also know that the most reliable ones are those that get regularly driven 12 months of the year, do it your way and it will suffer with those niggles that you seem to have resigned yourself to already, get out and drive it and you will own a fantastic British sports that rewards you with reliability and is a pleasure to own. Oh and finally pluck up the courage to stuck a few tools in the boot and go touring in France I can assure you it is far better than taking a boring old 5 series or something and leaving your TVR behind because you believe your own prophesy! Rich…
>> Edited by RichB on Friday 6th December 12:48
Firstly Rich, I feel you may have ruffled your feathers unnecessarily, the point of the post was to start an honest debate and not to slag off TVRs, “Don” spotted that one easily. As you have correctly spotted I am a relatively new TVR owner, if I thought they were rubbish I would not have recently bought one!
As far as technical help goes, I have spoken to the factory on several occasions before and since ownership, they are a cut above the main stream manufactures and I have nothing but praise for them. A friend of mine who works in what I believe to be the oldest TVR dealer in the country has told me countless stories about TVR records over the years. He probably does not know as much about how the factory works as you do, after all he is only on to the phone to them most days. When I told him I was going to ring the factory to look into my car’s history he laughed, undeterred I did it anyway, he was right - waste of time.
I cannot believe you did not understand the point being made about thoroughbred car builders, I can only suggest you read it again in the context of the paragraph.
I do not drive my TVR every day, I drive it several times a week for fun, hopefully I will drive it enough to enjoy it and not enough to destroy it. I have to confess I find it a nicer experience when the sun is shining but then I am new to TVR ownership so that is to be expected. I would not be so bold as to claim to know as much about cars as you, I do not know you, what little bits and pieces I have picked up are from having been in the Motor Trade for 30 odd years. Maybe you could advise me as to what tools to carry with me in case I venture out of my post code? I must also admit to not taking this all too seriously, I feel some people do.
Ivan
Owned 2 TVRs from new (Chimaera 4 and Tuscan S).
Both great cars.
Both totally reliable
Excellent dealer service.
The Tuscan S was better quality (It cost more!) but maybe that is because the factory are improving with time.
Oh and the Tuscan left the Chimaera for dead in performance and looks!!!! (IMHO)
Both great cars.
Both totally reliable
Excellent dealer service.
The Tuscan S was better quality (It cost more!) but maybe that is because the factory are improving with time.
Oh and the Tuscan left the Chimaera for dead in performance and looks!!!! (IMHO)
Always a contentious issue this as any supplier of goods will know. From a dictionary. Quality:"The totality of features and characteristics of a product or service that bear on its ability to satisfy stated or implied needs. Not to be mistaken for 'degree of excellence' or 'fitness for use' which meet only part of the definition."
So, basically if it meets your needs it's a Quality product.
So, basically if it meets your needs it's a Quality product.
Hang on Ivan, one minute you say your post was intended to spark an honest debate, and then you tell me you’re not taking it too seriously. You can’t have it both ways or is this another of your many contradictions?
ribol said:...the point of the post was to start an honest debate...
It’s like regarding the factory, you say that you have “nothing but praise” for them, yet in the next line they are a “complete waste of time” so do you actually know what you think? Perhaps not because no matter how many times I re-read your original post it still says that you think Vauxhall are a thoroughbred car manufacturer. Mind you from a “man-in-the-motor-trade” perhaps that’s to be expected, after all we have seen dealers advertising TVRs with ABS, ECC, Traction Control and even electric rear windows!
Oh and sorry to bang on about it but you didn’t answer my point about what you call the “oil-pump issue”. You imply this is a TVR design and build inadequacy, (or are you going to claim this was your attempt at post-modern irony?) yet as you know (now) the engine is a Rover lump. Your original contention was that all the quality parts are non-TVR, you then go and pick the single most important non TVR component i.e. the 5 litre V8 to illustrate your point, confused? You will be…
I’m glad you don’t take it too seriously ‘coz I certainly can’t!
Rich… MMM quality car well lets put it into context with other cars i've had.
Jago samuri kit car which i ran for about 6 years before taking it apart awaiting its latest rebuild.
4*gearboxes, 3 engines, 5 propshafts, 2 rear axles.
rac 5 times
Renault 11 gtl bougth 3 years old kept for 3 years and it needed
2* engine mounts
brake lines
5 rear dampers
fule tank
radiator
alternator
water pump
rad hoses
rac 3 times
Metro bought at 10k miles kept till 30k
paint problems
carb needed replacing
oil leaks
Range rover Vouge 3.5 efi kept 2 years
rear brake caliper
fuel lines
dampers
rear tailgate
replaced most of the electrics..
steering box
alternator
Rac once
94 Discovery 3.9 had for 4 years to date
leaks like a sive
bumpers replaced twice ( rust)
cruise control 3 times
alternator
96 4 ltr Chimaera had for 3 years
leaks if i dont reseal the clutch master cyl cover and reproof the hood every winter.
Wiper motor
water pump
rac nill
So on balance the TIV is the most reliable and best buit car i've had.
Jago samuri kit car which i ran for about 6 years before taking it apart awaiting its latest rebuild.
4*gearboxes, 3 engines, 5 propshafts, 2 rear axles.
rac 5 times
Renault 11 gtl bougth 3 years old kept for 3 years and it needed
2* engine mounts
brake lines
5 rear dampers
fule tank
radiator
alternator
water pump
rad hoses
rac 3 times
Metro bought at 10k miles kept till 30k
paint problems
carb needed replacing
oil leaks
Range rover Vouge 3.5 efi kept 2 years
rear brake caliper
fuel lines
dampers
rear tailgate
replaced most of the electrics..
steering box
alternator
Rac once
94 Discovery 3.9 had for 4 years to date
leaks like a sive
bumpers replaced twice ( rust)
cruise control 3 times
alternator
96 4 ltr Chimaera had for 3 years
leaks if i dont reseal the clutch master cyl cover and reproof the hood every winter.
Wiper motor
water pump
rac nill
So on balance the TIV is the most reliable and best buit car i've had.
Whether or not you call it "thoroughbred" or not, it is pretty obvious that Vauxhall go about building cars differently from TVR and have different expectations of the "quality" of their cars.
If a Vauxhall's interior trim started coming adrift and needed to be reattached with carpet tape by the owner in, say, 10% of their output, it would be considered a very major problem. In a TVR that kind of thing is just par for the course. Hardly seems unfair to describe that as an issue of "quality".
Design and build quality on a TVR are basically the bear minimum that is required to (a) make the car go like stink (b) make it look good (c) make it sound nice. Given that it is designed by a small team of engineers in a short period of time it is perfectly obvious that they won't achieve the same level of quality as a mass manufacturer that is trying to flog millions of cars.
To put this into some kind of perspective, a mate of mine was one of the engineers responsible for coordinating the design of the new mini's front bumper. There was a team of engineers who worked on the design of the bumper, another team who designed its manufacturing process and they were constantly working with the teams of engineers who worked on other related components.
There were more people involved in the design of a few bits of mini bodywork than the total workforce of a small scale car manufacturer.
So no surprise that there is a difference in the quality of the engineering.
But we should all know that from the outset (which I think is the point Ivan is making). It is silly to compare TVRs to Vauxhalls or Porkers becoz they come from totally different types of company.
If a Vauxhall's interior trim started coming adrift and needed to be reattached with carpet tape by the owner in, say, 10% of their output, it would be considered a very major problem. In a TVR that kind of thing is just par for the course. Hardly seems unfair to describe that as an issue of "quality".
Design and build quality on a TVR are basically the bear minimum that is required to (a) make the car go like stink (b) make it look good (c) make it sound nice. Given that it is designed by a small team of engineers in a short period of time it is perfectly obvious that they won't achieve the same level of quality as a mass manufacturer that is trying to flog millions of cars.
To put this into some kind of perspective, a mate of mine was one of the engineers responsible for coordinating the design of the new mini's front bumper. There was a team of engineers who worked on the design of the bumper, another team who designed its manufacturing process and they were constantly working with the teams of engineers who worked on other related components.
There were more people involved in the design of a few bits of mini bodywork than the total workforce of a small scale car manufacturer.
So no surprise that there is a difference in the quality of the engineering.
But we should all know that from the outset (which I think is the point Ivan is making). It is silly to compare TVRs to Vauxhalls or Porkers becoz they come from totally different types of company.
Tell you what guys, I thought I've had quality cars in the past,(look at profile) but I have to say all the BM's I've had required rad's, head gaskets, AA/RAC breakdowns (take me home please). and my latest car, Chim 500 has not come anywhere near the cr@p I've had to endure. Yes I do drive it most days and boy it's been the best car ever I've had for exhilaration and cheeky grin. Maybe I'm lucky, don't think so by what I've read in the forums to date. Life's great with my stoncker of a car. Good on you PW.
So what Ribol is saying is that if I want a goodlooking, fast, engaging and reliable sports car don't buy a TVR!
That's realy sad if it's true cause I really wanted to buy a new car made in the UK i.e. a Cerbera S6. But now I'm going to look at second hand 911's!
Sadened,
Michael McDowell
That's realy sad if it's true cause I really wanted to buy a new car made in the UK i.e. a Cerbera S6. But now I'm going to look at second hand 911's!
Sadened,
Michael McDowell
RichB said:Hang on Ivan, one minute you say your post was intended to spark an honest debate, and then you tell me you’re not taking it too seriously. You can’t have it both ways or is this another of your many contradictions?
ribol said:...the point of the post was to start an honest debate...
It’s like regarding the factory, you say that you have “nothing but praise” for them, yet in the next line they are a “complete waste of time” so do you actually know what you think? Perhaps not because no matter how many times I re-read your original post it still says that you think Vauxhall are a thoroughbred car manufacturer. Mind you from a “man-in-the-motor-trade” perhaps that’s to be expected, after all we have seen dealers advertising TVRs with ABS, ECC, Traction Control and even electric rear windows!
Oh and sorry to bang on about it but you didn’t answer my point about what you call the “oil-pump issue”. You imply this is a TVR design and build inadequacy, (or are you going to claim this was your attempt at post-modern irony?) yet as you know (now) the engine is a Rover lump. Your original contention was that all the quality parts are non-TVR, you then go and pick the single most important non TVR component i.e. the 5 litre V8 to illustrate your point, confused? You will be…
I’m glad you don’t take it too seriously ‘coz I certainly can’t!
Rich, easy ones first – you can have an honest debate with taking it all too seriously, most people manage. That is not a contradiction, it’s a matter of opinion, let me assure you I am not taking what you are saying too seriously.
I have nothing but praise for the technical help given to me by the factory, asking them about the history of the car was a “complete waste of time”. The time I spent asking them got me nowhere, so therefore I wasted my time – I hope that has cleared that up for you as you seem to be having a real problem with it?
When I wrote “specialist thoroughbred car builders like Fords, Vauxhall, VW” I meant it as a joke, I did not think anybody would have taken it seriously – I was wrong. I have not at any point commented on what you know or don’t know about cars, you should extend me the same courtesy, there is a possibility no matter how vague that I may even know something you don’t, even if I am “man-in-the-Motor-Trade.” I wonder what area of the Motor Industry you gained your practical knowledge of cars from, should be interesting?
Thank you for letting me know it is a Rover engine, you obviously did not understand that either, it was clearly written in my original post, how much of what is written do you actually take in? I was always taught you start a job; you finish it that also applies to oil changes. It is common garage practice not to leave an engine dry, it is just asking for trouble, if you stick to that there will be no “Oil-Pump-Issue” with any car.
What I like the most about these pages is there are so many people on here you can learn so much from and for that I am truly grateful.
Ivan
michaelrmcdowell said: So what Ribol is saying is that if I want a goodlooking, fast, engaging and reliable sports car don't buy a TVR!
That's realy sad if it's true cause I really wanted to buy a new car made in the UK i.e. a Cerbera S6. But now I'm going to look at second hand 911's!
Sadened,
Michael McDowell
Not entirely true, what RIBOL is saying is there is nothing wrong with the looks of any TVR, although that has to be down to personal taste. They are obviously all fast to a greater or lesser extent and by the nature of the beast must be engaging. However, I think you will find more owners of the “new breed” TVRs that would say they have had reliability problems than you will find that would claim to have had no problems.
If you want a practical well built sportscar the 911 wins easily, if you want something a bit different and with a bit more soul then a TVR makes more sense.
Ivan (happy with his old TVR)
In the seventies when Ferrari exported the Dino to these shores the quality of the car was appalling.I have heard stories that the Luggage compartment filled with water every time it rained.Ferrari's solution was to drill holes in the floor to let the water drain away! A more effective cure was to fit seals from a cortina! Nowadays Ferrari Dino's change hands at astounding prices.The moral of the story being TVR owners like Ferrari owners do not buy their cars for quality they buy them because they have soul.And please remember TVR are the only small manufacturer to build its own engines, a major feat.
clint888 said: I have my chim which I love dearly. It has a superb engine but kit-car build quality. I only use it in the summer and I NEVER take it on a long journey. It jhas done 19k miles. My second car is a BMW M5 E28 series--it has done 180k miles and is 100% reliable. I would trust it driving round the world---but given a choice I know which car I would keep--the TVR every time--sheer thrill of driving!
I would disagree about Kit car build quality.I would consider the Chimaera to be pretty well put together. It isn't in the BMW league but then again neither is my Alfa !
Well i dont care its british they go like stink sound
like angels f**ting look briliant you can work on them your self (most cars these days need a laptop to open the bonnet !) they are going to be worth good money in years to come i think the trade off against there "problems" are not worth thinking about. But if they are then you should not have one and dont bother with this site.
like angels f**ting look briliant you can work on them your self (most cars these days need a laptop to open the bonnet !) they are going to be worth good money in years to come i think the trade off against there "problems" are not worth thinking about. But if they are then you should not have one and dont bother with this site.
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