The value of a service history
Discussion
shpub said: It is all about risk management. If the car is cheap enough then you can afford to ignore things like damage or no service history as you have the cash delta to address them.
As with any risk assessment, no service history means that the potential risk of buying a dog is a lot higher than one without. Buying a car that has been "owner" serviced depends on how good the owner is and while there are good ones out there, the majority don't have the knowledge and the cars suffer big time in my experience...
As for non-dealer/specialist servicing... the risk of missing things or not doing them correctly is higher. Some are good. Most in my experience are not. The biggest problem with myths is the fact that people think they are rebodied Sierras or Land Rovers and can be treated as such.
If you want to go elsewhere because you don't want the apprentice working on your car then fine but who is going to train the guy that is working on it? How will he know whether something is really a problem or not? Who is going to pay for his learning curve.
In the end, it is your car and your decision. If you intend keeping it who cares. If you want to sell it on however, that is where the problems can occur as a most buyers will look at it and say that the risk for them is too high and walk away as there are plenty of other cars out there. To compensate, the prices will be lower.
Steve
Some time ago I bought a 7 year old chim with only 16k on the clock. The first owner had had FTVRSH and it had set him back £7480 due IMHO to outrageous overcharging by messrs Mole Valley. I paid 16k for the car and no one will convince me that I would have got such a fine car for say only 10k if it had FSH but not FTVRSH. With respect Steve you seem to believe that some very excellent motor engineers are not capable of working out the little quirks peculiar to TVR's. I can assure you that the one I now go to does a first class job. I had one experience with my local dealer which was enough. There are as far as I know no "factory trained" TVR mechanics so everybody learns as they go along. This dealer's "Service Department" comprised three very young men with no previous experience of TVR's.The engine was cutting out now and then and I took the car along for an assessment. Watching one of them at work was an education. He changed the coil the plugs the HT leads--all clueless hit and miss at £60 ph. As the car was an old one I decided to take it to someone who actually knew something about servicing cars generally. I have never regreted my decision. Mind you if I owned a Tuscan Tamora etc I would take it to the dealer because they have some very expensive diagnostic and chassis alignment equipment which is not the case with the V8's
>> Edited by clint888 on Thursday 19th December 00:30
In recent years the trend has been to force us all back to our respective main dealers, more so than ever before especially with longer warranties (on cars reliable enough to have them). On the face of it there is nothing wrong with that, they should be more familiar with the cars and should be able to repair them quickly and efficiently thus reducing the bills.
The reality of the situation is that because you are forced to go there they do not have to make much of an effort, do not have to do a good job and certainly do not have to charge sensible money. If we do not fall in with the main dealer system we have a gun to our head in fear for our resale value.
The way diagnostic systems are on cars today a small garage simply cannot invest enough money to repair all cars properly and make it pay. This has opened the door for the "specialists" to come in; they are not under the wing of the manufacturers so have to make it pay by themselves. To do the work they have to invest money into their chosen make of car, if they charge too much or do crap work they go skint, perfect environment for good quality work at sensible prices.
Once out of the warranty period a specialist on a type of car can easily provide a better service than a main dealer for less money. A good mechanic/small garage can do most things just as well but will come unstuck on some things no matter how good he is, the days of people who do not specialise are numbered.
Ivan
The reality of the situation is that because you are forced to go there they do not have to make much of an effort, do not have to do a good job and certainly do not have to charge sensible money. If we do not fall in with the main dealer system we have a gun to our head in fear for our resale value.
The way diagnostic systems are on cars today a small garage simply cannot invest enough money to repair all cars properly and make it pay. This has opened the door for the "specialists" to come in; they are not under the wing of the manufacturers so have to make it pay by themselves. To do the work they have to invest money into their chosen make of car, if they charge too much or do crap work they go skint, perfect environment for good quality work at sensible prices.
Once out of the warranty period a specialist on a type of car can easily provide a better service than a main dealer for less money. A good mechanic/small garage can do most things just as well but will come unstuck on some things no matter how good he is, the days of people who do not specialise are numbered.
Ivan
ribol said: In recent years the trend has been to force us all back to our respective main dealers, more so than ever before especially with longer warranties (on cars reliable enough to have them). On the face of it there is nothing wrong with that, they should be more familiar with the cars and should be able to repair them quickly and efficiently thus reducing the bills.
The reality of the situation is that because you are forced to go there they do not have to make much of an effort, do not have to do a good job and certainly do not have to charge sensible money. If we do not fall in with the main dealer system we have a gun to our head in fear for our resale value.
The way diagnostic systems are on cars today a small garage simply cannot invest enough money to repair all cars properly and make it pay. This has opened the door for the "specialists" to come in; they are not under the wing of the manufacturers so have to make it pay by themselves. To do the work they have to invest money into their chosen make of car, if they charge too much or do crap work they go skint, perfect environment for good quality work at sensible prices.
Once out of the warranty period a specialist on a type of car can easily provide a better service than a main dealer for less money. A good mechanic/small garage can do most things just as well but will come unstuck on some things no matter how good he is, the days of people who do not specialise are numbered.
Ivan
fair enough--but mechanically the TVR is,how shall I put it, an automobile "bicycle" ie it is constructed very simply albeit with a few quirks. A car engineer should have no problem servicing it. The so-called pitfalls are red herrings. They might apply to the do-it-yourself brigade but hardly to someone who works full-time with cars. Yes you need to have specialist equipment to service say a BMW 840 or a Tuscan but hardly for an earlier (or later come to that) chim or Griff. They are straightforward use your mechanical know-how type of cars.
the dodger said: What sort of "service history" are we talking about here? A 1996 for 12k is suspiciously good value even this time of year!
So is it Full TVR Dealer service history and the dates and mileage tie up with the MOT's etc? Or is it something less? Not that I am saying it has to be Dealer servicing - just that service history in itself means nothing. IMHO of course.
the dodger said: What sort of "service history" are we talking about here? A 1996 for 12k is suspiciously good value even this time of year!
So is it Full TVR Dealer service history and the dates and mileage tie up with the MOT's etc? Or is it something less? Not that I am saying it has to be Dealer servicing - just that service history in itself means nothing. IMHO of course.
The car in question has no service history at all, it has a reg document and is in fiarly good condition. It is available to me at £10k and i am wondering if the savings over a full documented service history car are worth the risk. i do intend to keep the car for 2 years and will develope history for it as it absorbs my funds!
the dodger said: Simon - most people here think you are considering a purchase? But after reading your original note again you could be enquiring about SELLING!
So, which is it?
I am thinking about buying, he wants 10k no service history at all, good condition but a few tatty bits, N reg, 35k miles. What do you think
Just a thought on this one to add some buying confusion.....
I bought my 2nd hand Chim (P reg) last year from a good independent and it came with a full service history (a mixed bag, some TVR, some indies) and I was quite happy with that. Like a complete dim-whit I have genuinely mislaid the service documentation and hence have now had to start building one from scratch. I'm still hopeful to find the documentation but if I were to sell at the moment (and I'm not) I would be faced with selling what I know to be a good car, that did have a FSH, with practically none. My point is that the "loss" of service history could well be genuine if the seller is a bit of a nonce like me!!
I'd give the car a go, preferably take along a knowledgable friend, get an HPI check and go for it if all seems well - especially if mileage can be confirmed (MOT docs are good for that).
Bargains do exist....
I bought my 2nd hand Chim (P reg) last year from a good independent and it came with a full service history (a mixed bag, some TVR, some indies) and I was quite happy with that. Like a complete dim-whit I have genuinely mislaid the service documentation and hence have now had to start building one from scratch. I'm still hopeful to find the documentation but if I were to sell at the moment (and I'm not) I would be faced with selling what I know to be a good car, that did have a FSH, with practically none. My point is that the "loss" of service history could well be genuine if the seller is a bit of a nonce like me!!
I'd give the car a go, preferably take along a knowledgable friend, get an HPI check and go for it if all seems well - especially if mileage can be confirmed (MOT docs are good for that).
Bargains do exist....
Winter, buyers market, specialist car with no comprehensive history etc etc. Probably £8k tops as it stands but even then get it checked out first by a TVR specialist. It could be a total dog.
Whether we like it or not most buyers of these cars want the peace of mind of a decent history. It's okay if it's TVR first 5 years and specialist thereafter (or whatever) but if it has nothing.......
Personally I'd rather pay £14k for a beautiful fully historied / garaged / pampered example that £8/10k for a pile of cack !!
Whether we like it or not most buyers of these cars want the peace of mind of a decent history. It's okay if it's TVR first 5 years and specialist thereafter (or whatever) but if it has nothing.......
Personally I'd rather pay £14k for a beautiful fully historied / garaged / pampered example that £8/10k for a pile of cack !!
I'm always intrigued by these discussions. The theory is absolutely concrete. If you have a history, the car should be much, much better than one without (and I don't really draw a distinction between the indie and the main dealer on a car like a Chimaera for the 'agricultural technology' reasons stated above!) The possession of reams of paper and invoices also tells you something about the owner and how he/she has cared for the car.
What it doesn't tell you is how they have been driven, stored, or (absolutely crucially in the case of a TVR), whether it came off the production line on a Monday morning - or a Friday night, when Dave the fitter was rushing for the pub.
Having read this forum for over a year now, and owned a Chimaera with a substantial hole in the history between 1998 and 2001, I have noted that nasty problems do occur in cars with beautiful histories and some old dogs just go on forever.
For these cars I would tend to put far more emphasis on a complete and thorough inspection and an honest dealer (not always an oxymoron in the TVR world..) than a delightful history.
However, the price you pay should reflect the amount you'll lose on sale - but if you never intend to sell it then who cares? Also - as the car ages and you can start building up a new file, the effect of the lack of history diminishes.
What it doesn't tell you is how they have been driven, stored, or (absolutely crucially in the case of a TVR), whether it came off the production line on a Monday morning - or a Friday night, when Dave the fitter was rushing for the pub.
Having read this forum for over a year now, and owned a Chimaera with a substantial hole in the history between 1998 and 2001, I have noted that nasty problems do occur in cars with beautiful histories and some old dogs just go on forever.
For these cars I would tend to put far more emphasis on a complete and thorough inspection and an honest dealer (not always an oxymoron in the TVR world..) than a delightful history.
However, the price you pay should reflect the amount you'll lose on sale - but if you never intend to sell it then who cares? Also - as the car ages and you can start building up a new file, the effect of the lack of history diminishes.
Chimaera are inplentifull supply at the moment, so if there is a choice between history and no history, I would always go with the history. There are many sheds around and I would question why there is no history, TVR's are generally owned by people who take care - yes you can lose the history, it could have been stolen from the car, it maybe that servicing has not been regular or by main or independnts. History is part of the cars provenance.
No history and take a chance = substantial reduction in price,
This is all IMHO as I have been looking for the right TVR for quite a few months.
No history and take a chance = substantial reduction in price,
This is all IMHO as I have been looking for the right TVR for quite a few months.
It's a "cosy" feeling seeing all this documentation . . .
Visting many dealers - of course they want the cars to look best etc . . I have seen a few examples "just arrive" that have been thrashed, curbed etc as the seller was moving away and needed to sell so gave it one last blast (6500 rpm?!!!) so you never know what could be around the corner (nor the owner for that matter with some of the write-offs!).
You pays your money and your warranty and your small print and at least you can ALWAYS smile if you've owned one . .
Visting many dealers - of course they want the cars to look best etc . . I have seen a few examples "just arrive" that have been thrashed, curbed etc as the seller was moving away and needed to sell so gave it one last blast (6500 rpm?!!!) so you never know what could be around the corner (nor the owner for that matter with some of the write-offs!).
You pays your money and your warranty and your small print and at least you can ALWAYS smile if you've owned one . .
I bought my chimaera from a TVRCC member with all the documentation including the original factory order. The car was bought as 100% original! I think this shows someone who takes pride in their car. In my view that is more important than having TVR main dealership stamps in the service book.(although mine has)
robkola said: It's a "cosy" feeling seeing all this documentation . . .
prior the buying my Chim I hired for 3 days a Chimaera. This was one of the dealers hire vehicle. It is now for sale "1 owner FTVRSH" I wonder how may racing drivers in ist first 18 months of life? Always try to determine the cars history. Hence documentation can highlight both goodand bad.
Rich.
well i think its a load of crap ,full tvr service yes to show that its been done and any mods from factory carried out ,but all the paperwork and ordersheets in the world wont say that the car has not been thrashed or not looked after very well just that alot of things have been replaced ,some cars need alot of work because they could be a friday afternoon job and some just dont need much doing to them at all cos they are made just right or just lucky ,but buyers seem to be just interested in the ones with loads of paperwork ,i would just say full tvrsh and use your eyes to check the rest and if you dont know what you are looking for is this really the make for you ,just look on this site some of the ones that have had full tvrsh and shedloads of paperwork still breakdown and others still carry on with no breakdowns ( just lucky),and then there are cars that have been damaged in an accident repaired with a certificate to show its done to a standard ,and most buyers on here seem to see this as a very big black mark ,the griff on the front of classic car mag had an accident repaired front end and side panels so i suppose that makes it worthless now even though it looks great ,all that paperwork will not tell you how its been used .....
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