"Gentlemen, show your engines!"

[Pupp]

Better one

[carsy]

Pupp said:

Better one

You done well Pupp.

[SILICONEKID345HP]

Pupp said:

Better one

Would you be happy to disclose every part you used to complete the job ?

Did you take pictures in front of the radiator ? that looks superb .

[Sardonicus]

carsy said:

You done well Pupp.

Thats the bks Gary another must see

[Pupp]

Thanks - just looks a lot less busy from that angle

Darren, I'm quite happy to tell anyone what bits I've used (and how I packaged them, which is more the issue) and, in fact, it's pretty much all on here anyway since about April. But there's not a lot of point in just putting a list of parts up as that will only be relevant to my engine/install and likely not what other would want/need depending on how they want it to work. Afraid there's no alternative to doing the research and understanding how it all interacts if you want to go the homebrew route.

[Richard 858]

I know I've said it before Gary but hats off to you mate, you've achieved something outstanding and unique. Looks nice and shiny too !

[Mr Supercharged]

ChimpOnGas said:

Sardonicu:Ds said:

o air box contraption because no air mass meter Dave looks like its on MAP

Indeed Simon, in fact Mr Supercharged is on a Canems system like me

I was talking to Lloyd Specialist Developments the other day about all this and they said the very same thing, it's felt the expensive air box contraption is only needed with the Lucas AFM.

I could probably make a good guess, but TBH I don't conclusively understand the science behind why the AFM needs it but a car equipped with a MAP sensor doesn't?

Can someone explain the reason in detail?

Is it all about speed of hot wire AFM response (or the lack there of) as you transition from closed to open throttle positions?

I'm genuinely intrigued

It's quite simple Dave, with the Air Flow Meter all of the air, every last molecule has to be accounted for once it has gone through the device since it is this that tells the ECU how much fuel to inject. The complicated air box sold with the kit accepts the air that passes out through the dump valve during part or closed throttle and reuses it so it is not lost and is accounted for. On a Manifold Absolute Pressure system the ECU calculates the amount of fuel required purely from what is in the plenum chamber, what goes on before hand is immaterial.

Regarding the water charge cooler or air to air I have to say that I disagree, that is not to say that I am right and you are wrong, that is for me to say that my opinion is different that is all.

This makes for interesting reading:

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tu...

I think that under bonnet temperatures are very high on our cars and the heat soak of the charge cooler sat on top of the engine is a serious consideration. Going back to basics you are essentially using ambient air rushing into the front of the car to cool air that you have compressed by either turbo charging or supercharging. Placing a second heat exchanger into the system will surely have a second efficiency drop. Whether the combined efficiency drop is better or worse than a single efficiency drop of just one intercooler is down to design, physical size constraints and the environment (i.e. temperature) in which they sit. I would be happy to compare air inlet temperatures with someone running the same boost level / same engine displacement while driving on the same bit of road at the same time if that helps prove one way or another and if it is of interest to anyone???

If you want to use any of my design that's fine too. Let me know how I can help. I'll also have my Weiler Matador lathe up and running soon and TIG welding capabilities to help out those fellow enthusiasts in need. Cheers.

[SILICONEKID345HP]

Pupp said:

Thanks - just looks a lot less busy from that angle

Darren, I'm quite happy to tell anyone what bits I've used (and how I packaged them, which is more the issue) and, in fact, it's pretty much all on here anyway since about April. But there's not a lot of point in just putting a list of parts up as that will only be relevant to my engine/install and likely not what other would want/need depending on how they want it to work. Afraid there's no alternative to doing the research and understanding how it all interacts if you want to go the homebrew route.

Thanks Pupp ,did you have the engine especially built for forced induction .

[Richard 858]

Just as a point of interest I managed to collect some information when on my last rolling road visit. Although I didn't have an effective method of measuring actual charge air temperatures I did have an infa red digital thermometer with which I took external surface intercooler pipe readings (at uninsulated points). Readings where 48 - 50 degrees C pre intercooler & 24-25 degrees C post intercooler, granted that these where taken with mains powered cooling fan replicating airflow at speed, and unfortunately I overlooked taking a water temp reading at the time , but it does demonstrate intercooler effectiveness.

[Hoofa]

The airbox with the supercharger kit is unnessary, also due to the bracket mounting the sc fitting a charge cooler is going to be a challange , nice install Gary it looks good. At some point we do need a forced induction meeting next year.

[ChimpOnGas]

Mr Supercharged said:

It's quite simple Dave, with the Air Flow Meter all of the air, every last molecule has to be accounted for once it has gone through the device since it is this that tells the ECU how much fuel to inject. The complicated air box sold with the kit accepts the air that passes out through the dump valve during part or closed throttle and reuses it so it is not lost and is accounted for. On a Manifold Absolute Pressure system the ECU calculates the amount of fuel required purely from what is in the plenum chamber, what goes on before hand is immaterial.

Regarding the water charge cooler or air to air I have to say that I disagree, that is not to say that I am right and you are wrong, that is for me to say that my opinion is different that is all.

This makes for interesting reading:

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tu...

I think that under bonnet temperatures are very high on our cars and the heat soak of the charge cooler sat on top of the engine is a serious consideration. Going back to basics you are essentially using ambient air rushing into the front of the car to cool air that you have compressed by either turbo charging or supercharging. Placing a second heat exchanger into the system will surely have a second efficiency drop. Whether the combined efficiency drop is better or worse than a single efficiency drop of just one intercooler is down to design, physical size constraints and the environment (i.e. temperature) in which they sit. I would be happy to compare air inlet temperatures with someone running the same boost level / same engine displacement while driving on the same bit of road at the same time if that helps prove one way or another and if it is of interest to anyone???

If you want to use any of my design that's fine too. Let me know how I can help. I'll also have my Weiler Matador lathe up and running soon and TIG welding capabilities to help out those fellow enthusiasts in need. Cheers.

Thanks for all that and your offer of support, I really feel the supercharger is close now.

I wonder if SC-Power will just sell me the Rotrex unit & their CNC mounting bracket?

The rest should be relatively straightforward - famous last words :-)

[ChimpOnGas]

Pupp said:

Better one

Really like this, on 'Ol Gasbag' I just see it in reverse with a Rotrex supercharger.

Great job Pupp, much respect

[Mr Supercharged]

Quite possibly. Do you run power steering? The only real issue I have with my kit is that if the power steering pump failed it would be a pain to get at. One good thing though and something to consider is that if you do have power steering you get a new high pressure hose which works well and you do away with the horrible U bend piece that always leaks out.

You are welcome to pop round and make a list of all the bits you need. Additionally the best place to buy you Supercharger is here:

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/

prices here include VAT and are a lot cheaper than the main supplier you find in the UK.

There was a guy selling a TVR SC power charger and bracket on ebay a while back in Coventry or somewhere nearby. Could look there?

[Mr Supercharged]

Hoofa said:

The airbox with the supercharger kit is unnessary, also due to the bracket mounting the sc fitting a charge cooler is going to be a challange , nice install Gary it looks good. At some point we do need a forced induction meeting next year.

A forced induction meeting would be good next year. Great to compare ideas and experiences. Let me know when but better for me towards end of summer.

[ChimpOnGas]

Mr Supercharged said:

Quite possibly. Do you run power steering? The only real issue I have with my kit is that if the power steering pump failed it would be a pain to get at. One good thing though and something to consider is that if you do have power steering you get a new high pressure hose which works well and you do away with the horrible U bend piece that always leaks out.

You are welcome to pop round and make a list of all the bits you need. Additionally the best place to buy you Supercharger is here:

http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/

prices here include VAT and are a lot cheaper than the main supplier you find in the UK.

There was a guy selling a TVR SC power charger and bracket on ebay a while back in Coventry or somewhere nearby. Could look there?

Thanks again, I would love to meet you and see your car in the flesh.

I do have power steering but got shot of the nasty Jubilee clipped U pipe disaster with the Johnny Z kit, TBH I was thinking about fitting a Vectra electric power steering pump like Phazed, what do you think?

If I bought the Rotrex unit off GMC then I'm not sure SC-Power will been keen to sell me their CNC bracket, and from what I can tell it's the critical bracket that makes the kit.

I've never had a problem with an honest business making a profit, it's only when the their margins get greedy I may start looking at other options, no idea if SC-Power are greedy or not but they have clearly put a lot of development work into their kit so its only fair & proper they should expect a return on their investment.

[SILICONEKID345HP]

ChimpOnGas said:

Thanks again, I would love to meet you and see your car in the flesh.

I do have power steering but got shot of the nasty Jubilee clipped U pipe disaster with the Johnny Z kit, TBH I was thinking about fitting a Vectra electric power steering pump like Phazed, what do you think?

If I bought the Rotrex unit off GMC then I'm not sure SC-Power will been keen to sell me their CNC bracket, and from what I can tell it's the critical bracket that makes the kit.

I've never had a problem with an honest business making a profit, it's only when the their margins get greedy I may start looking at other options, no idea if SC-Power are greedy or not but they have clearly put a lot of development work into their kit so its only fair & proper they should expect a return on their investment.

I heard Dexterio (EFI EXTRAS) can get hold of those brackets .

Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Sunday 14th December 23:33

[Pupp]

Mr Supercharged said:

I think that under bonnet temperatures are very high on our cars and the heat soak of the charge cooler sat on top of the engine is a serious consideration. Going back to basics you are essentially using ambient air rushing into the front of the car to cool air that you have compressed by either turbo charging or supercharging. Placing a second heat exchanger into the system will surely have a second efficiency drop. Whether the combined efficiency drop is better or worse than a single efficiency drop of just one intercooler is down to design, physical size constraints and the environment (i.e. temperature) in which they sit. I would be happy to compare air inlet temperatures with someone running the same boost level / same engine displacement while driving on the same bit of road at the same time if that helps prove one way or another and if it is of interest to anyone???

I was concerned about exactly this - in practice and with the pump running, there is little soak occurring; the charge cooler is invariably cold to the touch and IC temperatures I'm logging are typically only a couple of degrees above ambient. Even with the pump off and just thermo-siphoning, it doesn't soak horribly and still provides appreciable cooling effect. Might be completely different at high boost levels on the track of course, but on the street it works very well. Soak is such a non-issue I have not bothered installing the natty SC Power heat shield I obtained to go over the nearside manifold. Really need to get the 2 channel SPA intercooler gauge working properly to reliably see what is happening in real time either side of the cooler

From the research I did, all the evidence I could find pointed toward the Rotrax units heating the air quite a bit more on a RV8 than a turbo of similar physical size, given the relative efficiencies (not a criticism before anyone gets punchy, just a comment on respective compressor map characteristics and how hard the Rotrax is working to keep pace with a relatively large engine) - I'm sure a good air/air set up will cope fine but I personally didn't see the point of heating air that much only to have to push it miles around the front of the car when there was a more direct route in with (just) enough space to get a cooler close to the plenum. Select the right turbo, in fact, and there is actually clear scope to run with no charge cooling at all...

[macdeb]

Excellent work Gary
Really look forward to seeing it at a FI met sometime [shakey 18-4-15 looks good] What boost level are you up to now? Any more thought on recirculating dumped boost, or as me do you like the sound
Completely understand the apologetic comment before someone tries to crucify you for saying something taken out of context and find myself doing it all the time, Why is that?
Anyhow again mate, top job on an entirely different approach to it

Edited by macdeb on Monday 15th December 20:46

[macdeb]

ChimpOnGas said:

Thanks for all that and your offer of support, I really feel the supercharger is close now.

I wonder if SC-Power will just sell me the Rotrex unit & their CNC mounting bracket?

The rest should be relatively straightforward - famous last words :-)

I doubt it, but good luck and go for it!

[SILICONEKID345HP]

macdeb said:

Excellent work Gary
Really look forward to seeing it at a FI met sometime [shakey 18-4-15 looks good] What boost level are you up to now? Any more thought on recirculating dumped boost, or as me do you like the sound
Completely understand the apologetic comment before someone tries to crucify you for saying something taken out of context and find myself doing it all the time, Why is that?
Anyhow again mate, top job on an entirely different approach to it

Edited by macdeb on Monday 15th December 20:46

Do they use the same amount of petrol in normal driving mode ?