Charles Morgan
Discussion
Speedraser said:
Why do you consider combining 3-Wheeler sales with 4-Wheeler sales misleading? They are sales, are they not?
I gather you are new to current Morgan watching. Through their short current 3Wheeler history (since 2010) the company reported 3Wheeler orders and sales separately. Indeed, it is a separate company to this day. This separate reporting continued until the 4-wheeler sales dropped and the 3Wheelers did not attain their predicted production (Charles and the Factory assured buyers and the network of 25 units weekly for 2012) Then, recently, they started presenting all vehicle sales as one figure, presumably to obscure the drops. You will also notice they also no longer report Aero-derivative sales, not even the Aero Plus 8. In sum, the only thing that misleads people (me and you) is when the parameters of reporting are changed.
Speedraser said:
I note that you joined this forum on 16 October, which is timely for this topic, and that you have rather strong views on this. I'm not suggesting you're doing anything other than contributing your perspective to this topic, but I am curious as to your connection, if any, to Morgan.
I joined specifically to address my frustrations at some of the comments (misconceptions) I read here. As a member of the public, I hate seeing people taken for fools. I have no connection with the Morgan companies whatsoever. Speedraser said:
On a more general note, I've been a Morgan enthusiast since I was a little kid, and I owned a '71 Plus 8 for a very long time (miss it badly). I had the pleasure of meeting Peter and Charles a number of times. People buy Morgans for the truly unique experience that they provide, and part of that experience has been the Morgan family's ongoing involvement in the company. When I visited the factory for the first time, meeting the son and the grandson of the founder was a wonderful and special part of the experience, as was their presence at some of the clubs' events. Losing Charles will be a massive loss to the one-of-a-kind experience that is Morgan
You are a lucky man! But have you been back since Charles ousted Peter from control in 1999? If not, stay away. You are best to keep your fond memories of it intact. Charles has never understood Morgans as well as you do. Edited by StraightShooter on Saturday 26th October 00:13
asbojohn said:
StraightShooter said:
On the other hand, the non-family bean counters who now run Morgan for the family have never put buyers and the cars as their first priority.
The guy that runs the place for the shareholders started at Morgan as an apprentice, he's worked his way up the hard way.I'd certainly have to disagree with your comment on him not having the cars and customers as priority from my own personal experience.
Speedraser said:
I note that you joined this forum on 16 October, which is timely for this topic, and that you have rather strong views on this. I'm not suggesting you're doing anything other than contributing your perspective to this topic, but I am curious as to your connection, if any, to Morgan.
Oh he's been here a long time in many guises 
asbojohn said:
StraightShooter said:
On the other hand, the non-family bean counters who now run Morgan for the family have never put buyers and the cars as their first priority.
The guy that runs the place for the shareholders started at Morgan as an apprentice, he's worked his way up the hard way.I'd certainly have to disagree with your comment on him not having the cars and customers as priority from my own personal experience.
I am constantly asked what happened on that score in such a short period, I have to point to the type of owner that has bloomed with the internet. They are usually mechanically helpless and the worst of them actually hide the problems they experience from fellow buyers. That would have been unheard of 10 years ago. Such was the buyer trust back then that the Company had pre-orders of 800 new Aeros within months of Geneva 2000. Now compare that reaction to Aero orders today..or Classics for that matter.
The "new" Morgan community has allowed the company to become what it is at this point in time and the new leaders of that community reflect the new attitude at the factory. It would be educational to post their service/warranty records. A deep learning experience in credibility. Or did you think that PhilRS is alone?
Let us hope that it is not too late to reverse the effect they have had on the marque.
Edited by StraightShooter on Saturday 26th October 11:12
absolutely. I just don't understand the subterfuge. StraightShooter said:
The "new" Morgan community has allowed the company to become what it is at this point in time and the new leaders of that community reflect the new attitude at the factory. It would be educational to post their service/warranty records. A deep learning experience in credibility. Or did you think that PhilRS is alone?
I won'taddress your cheap shots earlier as can't be bothered (wry smile) but for the purpose of clarity on reliability I will comment.3 Aero products and one trad (
) in 5 years. Recoveries? 1, failed hose on my S2 Aero. Other warranty repairs? Failed windows switch once. Not too shabby in 5 years. Much better than my 911 Turbo S or even my Ferrari 16M which required 4 failed rear light brackets when only 3 years old (at £1700 fitted!!) ok not a show stopper but another warranty claim. PS ironic new user name LG?
I always wanted a Morgan and in 1999 I bought a brand new Morgan +4. It was the stuff of dreams. I saw a dark blue +4 in 1970 and I decided I wanted one the same. 23 years later I was able to order the car and in September 1999 I took delivery. I had intended to keep it forever. I drove it for less than 18 months and fortunately managed to sell it before it was three years old and done about 20K.
In terms of manufacture and reliability it was just about the worse car I have ever owned. I was repainted twice due to corrosion. When driving out of the factory the indicators failed. It was a poor starter and sometimes would not start. The chrome on the fittings showed pitting marks. It had two new gearboxes as on occasions it would jam in 4th gear. The roof leaked and so did the scuttle and heater intake. The steering rack gaiter came off and it lost its lubricant. The front wheel bearing failed. The bearing failed on the steering shaft as the inner race cracked. There was moisture inside the dials. The starter motor was replaced. Worse of all the air intake box sucked in warm air from above the exhaust so when the car was hot performance dropped of quite a bit.
To be fair Morgan always tried to fix things, they never rejected a claim even when the car was outside its 12 month warranty. However, I would have preferred a more reliable car from the start. If that had been the case I still might have owned it.
In terms of manufacture and reliability it was just about the worse car I have ever owned. I was repainted twice due to corrosion. When driving out of the factory the indicators failed. It was a poor starter and sometimes would not start. The chrome on the fittings showed pitting marks. It had two new gearboxes as on occasions it would jam in 4th gear. The roof leaked and so did the scuttle and heater intake. The steering rack gaiter came off and it lost its lubricant. The front wheel bearing failed. The bearing failed on the steering shaft as the inner race cracked. There was moisture inside the dials. The starter motor was replaced. Worse of all the air intake box sucked in warm air from above the exhaust so when the car was hot performance dropped of quite a bit.
To be fair Morgan always tried to fix things, they never rejected a claim even when the car was outside its 12 month warranty. However, I would have preferred a more reliable car from the start. If that had been the case I still might have owned it.
The children have arrived here. Thread moved to
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&...
http://charlesmorganuk.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/up...
Update from Charles Morgan
October 31 2013 -
I have been informed that Morgan has rejected my appeal and, as a result, I have been removed from Morgan Technologies
It is incredibly disappointing news for my family and myself. We remain very grateful for the expressions of support received from Morgan fans, workers and the public since this process began.
I have been dismissed on what I believe are very contentious grounds. Over the last 12 months, it was made increasingly clear that my philosophy to modernise Morgan did not fit with the philosophy of the current management.
My view is that Morgan’s future cannot rely on its heritage alone. As such, I endeavoured to introduce our unique brand to new markets such as China; to take Morgan racing again; and to engage the passion of a new generation using social media, and by doing interesting things such as the Gumball Rally in a 3 Wheeler.
My aim has been to give Morgan a bright future as an independent company.
My record in business is something I look upon with pride – volumes doubled during my tenure and profits for the first six months of the year had increased dramatically to £1.2 million.
I remain a major shareholder in the Morgan Motor Co and am concerned for its future. I will take time to consider my next actions and potentially explore other opportunities available to me.
Where possible I will respond to media enquiries, but please contact my representation in the first instance: Will Powell - will@influenceassociates.com
- Charles Morgan
@charlesmorganuk
Update from Charles Morgan
October 31 2013 -
I have been informed that Morgan has rejected my appeal and, as a result, I have been removed from Morgan Technologies
It is incredibly disappointing news for my family and myself. We remain very grateful for the expressions of support received from Morgan fans, workers and the public since this process began.
I have been dismissed on what I believe are very contentious grounds. Over the last 12 months, it was made increasingly clear that my philosophy to modernise Morgan did not fit with the philosophy of the current management.
My view is that Morgan’s future cannot rely on its heritage alone. As such, I endeavoured to introduce our unique brand to new markets such as China; to take Morgan racing again; and to engage the passion of a new generation using social media, and by doing interesting things such as the Gumball Rally in a 3 Wheeler.
My aim has been to give Morgan a bright future as an independent company.
My record in business is something I look upon with pride – volumes doubled during my tenure and profits for the first six months of the year had increased dramatically to £1.2 million.
I remain a major shareholder in the Morgan Motor Co and am concerned for its future. I will take time to consider my next actions and potentially explore other opportunities available to me.
Where possible I will respond to media enquiries, but please contact my representation in the first instance: Will Powell - will@influenceassociates.com
- Charles Morgan
@charlesmorganuk
No attempt to address the specific accusations of misconduct; an admission of guilt? There's nothing wrong with promoting the company via a racing programme, but such things need to be budgeted and approved on the basis of the potential marketing value gained; waving the company credit card around just makes you look like a spendthrift(and gets you the sack).
There are now two threads on this subject, but I will paste my thoughts from the other one, about Mr. Morgan's latest statement.
Does anyone share my views, or have other comments?
Unfortunately, I see this loss of the 'figurehead' (which does seem to be an important part of the ownership experience for many) as possibly the start of a slippery slope for the company. A great shame, if I am correct.
Ageing ownership.
Progressive safety legislation.
Sophisticated car electronics, which do seem to appeal to car buyers now.
The list of difficulties is probably a long one.
The 3 Wheeler has been a good (surprise) sales success, but after that production slows, what happens?
........................
My thoughts after reading Mr. Charles Morgan's statement, is that he clearly has ideas for the future of the company, but the board of directors might have been horrified at the cost of implementation.
'Cannot rely on heritage alone'
- Yes, that is obvious. There is clearly little interest amongst younger age groups, and the existing demographic won't live forever.
'New markets such as China'
- Some export markets might work, perhaps it is a case of try and see.
'to take Morgan racing again'
- Usually an extremely expensive activity, where motor manufacturers do not recover the cost through extra car sales. I know there has been some racing success for Morgan, but when people think Morgan, they probably do not associate the brand with motor racing.
There are sometimes questions, about whether Aston Martin should be spending so much on motor racing, but their situation is very different. They have a long standing brand association with motor racing. That company has been racing since 1915, which includes Brooklands and an outright win at Le Mans.
'to engage the passion of a new generation using social media'
- This has now become an essential part of marketing, and with low costs.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 1st November 11:15
The demographic point is flawed. Morgans appeal to middle-aged blokes who have got a bit of money to spare an who are looking for something with a bit of heritage. They are fed up with glitzy superficiality and they want something that is, for good or ill, built by real people who care about what they do.
There is a steady supply of people like this. Not very many, admittedly, but enough to sustain a company making 500 to 1,00 vehicles a year.
Morgan need to focus on this core market. Trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, or Aston Martin is doomed to failure. They need to get their core products sorted, not extending themselves all over the place. By all means they should sponsor a degree of motor sport, but that doesn't mean spend bazillions on paying for other manufacturers to drive round Le Mans.
There is a steady supply of people like this. Not very many, admittedly, but enough to sustain a company making 500 to 1,00 vehicles a year.
Morgan need to focus on this core market. Trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, or Aston Martin is doomed to failure. They need to get their core products sorted, not extending themselves all over the place. By all means they should sponsor a degree of motor sport, but that doesn't mean spend bazillions on paying for other manufacturers to drive round Le Mans.
Gaspode said:
The demographic point is flawed. Morgans appeal to middle-aged blokes who have got a bit of money to spare an who are looking for something with a bit of heritage. They are fed up with glitzy superficiality and they want something that is, for good or ill, built by real people who care about what they do.
There is a steady supply of people like this. Not very many, admittedly, but enough to sustain a company making 500 to 1,00 vehicles a year.
Morgan need to focus on this core market. Trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, or Aston Martin is doomed to failure. They need to get their core products sorted, not extending themselves all over the place. By all means they should sponsor a degree of motor sport, but that doesn't mean spend bazillions on paying for other manufacturers to drive round Le Mans.
Agree with this. The insistence on live axles suggests that buyers in the main aren't that interested in cutting edge handling either, so not sure why CM thinks that going racing will boost sales.There is a steady supply of people like this. Not very many, admittedly, but enough to sustain a company making 500 to 1,00 vehicles a year.
Morgan need to focus on this core market. Trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, or Aston Martin is doomed to failure. They need to get their core products sorted, not extending themselves all over the place. By all means they should sponsor a degree of motor sport, but that doesn't mean spend bazillions on paying for other manufacturers to drive round Le Mans.
Couple of other observations. They aren't really 'building' 3 wheelers; they come as chassis / engine / gearbox and (I think) running gear assemblies from suppliers and are 'dressed' in the factory with an ash frame / body and interior. Nothing wrong with that - they are fairly quick to produce and seem to be selling well (>50% of sales?).
Also, there were three or four in our group who had come from overseas to see the factory, including from Germany and Holland. Suggests that the export market is doing well and China could well be lucrative. They were all (including us) middle aged blokes though...
Gaspode said:
The demographic point is flawed. Morgans appeal to middle-aged blokes who have got a bit of money to spare an who are looking for something with a bit of heritage. They are fed up with glitzy superficiality and they want something that is, for good or ill, built by real people who care about what they do.
There is a steady supply of people like this. Not very many, admittedly, but enough to sustain a company making 500 to 1,00 vehicles a year.
Morgan need to focus on this core market. Trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, or Aston Martin is doomed to failure. They need to get their core products sorted, not extending themselves all over the place. By all means they should sponsor a degree of motor sport, but that doesn't mean spend bazillions on paying for other manufacturers to drive round Le Mans.
I agree. Morgan is truly unique, and it needs to stay that way. Its market is very small, but it doesn't need to sell many cars. Trying to compete with Aston, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. won't work. The Morgan family's involvement has always been intrinsic to the appeal, and the loss of it, to this very long-time Morgan enthusiast, is very distressing. That's not to say that Charles has been "right" or that I've agreed with many of his decisions, but the figurehead matters.There is a steady supply of people like this. Not very many, admittedly, but enough to sustain a company making 500 to 1,00 vehicles a year.
Morgan need to focus on this core market. Trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, or Aston Martin is doomed to failure. They need to get their core products sorted, not extending themselves all over the place. By all means they should sponsor a degree of motor sport, but that doesn't mean spend bazillions on paying for other manufacturers to drive round Le Mans.
Regarding the rest of the nonsense on this thread, it's all starting to make (some) sense...
EskimoArapaho said:
Echoes of Bristol...
For now, the hoardes of 40-60 year olds who grew up on B+W WW2 films (pumped out non-stop on Sunday afternoons), are the market for these characterful and sometimes bonkers cars. I'm right in that category, but when I got to the age and position when there was money to spend, I toyed with the idea of a Morgan for all of the same reasons, but decided on a different long-held dream car. (Different strokes, etc.)
But this warm fuzzy emotional connection, the one that the Morgan car company has been able to live off for so long, is disappearing and will be gone within a generation or two. Those old war films are no longer shown. Kids already have no sense of plucky Britain's past, where wood and hammered metal held off disaster and ultimately triumphed. New generations will see Morgans as expensive kit cars (yes, I know they're not)...
This is a car, in whatever form, that I have hankered after for a long time, and what Eskimo says is probably part of it. But that is only part of it, and beyond that I do not agree with his assessment. The exponentially increasing interest in classic cars (most of which don't drive one tenth as good as they look) and the use of classic imagery by all the great manufacturers - Bentley, Aston Martin, Mercedes, Alfa Romeo etc etc - suggests to me that the appeal of the Morgan design is not going to be limited to those who watched every British war film from the Dambusters 1955, to Where Eagles Dare 1969 almost continuously through their formative years, though trust me we have a bit of life left in us yet.Gramrugby said:
Driving one feels like thundering away from a 1940s RAF aerodrome.
This is why he had to go - in the eyes of the other board members (and in my eyes as a company director). For now, the hoardes of 40-60 year olds who grew up on B+W WW2 films (pumped out non-stop on Sunday afternoons), are the market for these characterful and sometimes bonkers cars. I'm right in that category, but when I got to the age and position when there was money to spend, I toyed with the idea of a Morgan for all of the same reasons, but decided on a different long-held dream car. (Different strokes, etc.)
But this warm fuzzy emotional connection, the one that the Morgan car company has been able to live off for so long, is disappearing and will be gone within a generation or two. Those old war films are no longer shown. Kids already have no sense of plucky Britain's past, where wood and hammered metal held off disaster and ultimately triumphed. New generations will see Morgans as expensive kit cars (yes, I know they're not)...
What are Morgan's core values, in my perception at any rate?
I want to sit right back on the axle and look over a ridiculously long louvred bonnet framed by the headlights and wings. I want the sensation of being a 20's racing driver or Bulldog Drummond, or indeed Bob Stanford Tuck. I want the laid back, elbow over the side open air experience, comfortable as an old sports jacket. In what other car can I get all that?
The styling is iconic, and what Morgan prove is that constant change, planned obsolescence and styling gimmickry are not the solution for every part of the motor industry. Retro or not, this is genuinely beautiful, to the point where it is timeless, and no-one else can do it without ending up on the end of a lawsuit, although some try, like Wiesmann or Spyker, proving that there is a market for this.
Where else can I have a sports car, crafted to my requirements, for £35k? It carries on the handbuilt tradition, partly by not continuously changing things, and if the penalty for this is occasional quality issues, I would say that is, within reason, acceptable.
I want reliability. No car is perfect, not even a 911, but a reputation for poor quality will almost certainly be fatal. So they need a reputation for basic reliability and soundness. Surely that is not unachievable?
I want a car which handles predictably, traditionally and entertainingly. I have heard criticism of the steering system. If its a real problem, why not consider updating it to something better?
I want a car which feels fast, whether or not it is. Speed is totally relative. I have cruised Europe in Porsches, and been frequently overtaken by Opel Corsas and similar. Most of the time, actual speed on the road these days is only a reflection of the extent to which the driver is prepared to risk losing his licence. Cars like the Caterham 7-160 and Toyota GT86 prove the core demand for a lightweight fun driving experience. This is or should be absolutely Morgan's home ground.
I want a car which is safe, i.e. is not wilfully and unnecessarily dangerous to its occupants.
I want a car which keeps the water out. The Chris Harris review of driving a Plus 8 to Geneva does look a little scary in this regard. How hard can this be?
Morgan's style and approach makes them unique, and the above values IMHO are those they need to focus on, and they can and should improve their cars steadily in all of these areas, without in any way abandoning their basic car design. Not to do so would be lazy and risky, but to 'modernise' for the sake of modernity, or to try to become something they are not, would throw the baby out with the bathwater. A 2014 Morgan should be better than a 1988 Morgan, but only in the sense that it achieves more closely the ideals which the company espouses, and delivers an even better experience to the customer. Do this, and I don't see how the company could fail. As long as it is a quality product, the new markets opening up should provide all the new customers they need, though I expect some ingenious solutions to safety requirements may be needed.
Bristol, TVR and Lotus are very different cases. Bristol sold on old fashioned and very British combination of Gentleman's Club comfort and effortless power, but was overtaken by technology which could deliver this better than their formula. TVR - I agree with what was said already. Lotus suffered from trying to do too much with bad management and an indifferent owner. I would wholeheartedly accept that for a company like Aston Martin, an R&D budget in hundreds of millions is nearly essential, and, as an 'enthusiast' AM owner I would welcome a link up with Mercedes for example. Such companies, including Lamborghini and Ferrari, HAVE to be at the cutting edge. Morgan have made a virtue of being at the other end of the spectrum, and you cannot be somewhere in between. A partner like that might well be beneficial for Morgan, not in that they can teach MMC to turn out cars the way VW does, but that technology, where it does not conflict with core Morgan values, could usefully be transferred or adapted at low cost. However, I do not think it is essential provided that they have a really good, intelligent head of engineering. I am with Soichiro honda on this. Morgan will always survive. So will Aston Martin. The strength of the brands is that strong. But that doesn't mean that it won't be a rocky road.
Edited by cardigankid on Monday 9th December 08:44
Added -
The question which has to be asked is this - is it necessary to be a multi-billion pound corporate megastructure to be in the car manufacturing industry today. I would hope that the answer is no, because we face the same problem in every facet of our lives. Do we have to surrender the supply of every commodity we require to big industry? It clearly suits the suits to tell us so, but it cannot possibly be true.
The current spat at Morgan worries me, but for entirely different reasons.
Companies grow because of inspiration, focus and dedication to the company - prosperity is a byproduct of success, not the objective. Passing it on to future generations is always a risk, and in a family company they almost always end up with far too many family members with a sense of entitlement, on or off the payroll. This is both a drain on the resources which are needed elsewhere, and a distraction from the truly important stuff. The idea that there is a family squabble going on (and it can only in the end be about money) would absolutely put me off purchasing, at least until it is clearly resolved, and someone who is talented, committed, and responsible, is in charge. It would be better if that is a family member, because of the tradition, but not necessarily. They need to get to that point asap.
The question which has to be asked is this - is it necessary to be a multi-billion pound corporate megastructure to be in the car manufacturing industry today. I would hope that the answer is no, because we face the same problem in every facet of our lives. Do we have to surrender the supply of every commodity we require to big industry? It clearly suits the suits to tell us so, but it cannot possibly be true.
The current spat at Morgan worries me, but for entirely different reasons.
Companies grow because of inspiration, focus and dedication to the company - prosperity is a byproduct of success, not the objective. Passing it on to future generations is always a risk, and in a family company they almost always end up with far too many family members with a sense of entitlement, on or off the payroll. This is both a drain on the resources which are needed elsewhere, and a distraction from the truly important stuff. The idea that there is a family squabble going on (and it can only in the end be about money) would absolutely put me off purchasing, at least until it is clearly resolved, and someone who is talented, committed, and responsible, is in charge. It would be better if that is a family member, because of the tradition, but not necessarily. They need to get to that point asap.
Edited by cardigankid on Sunday 8th December 22:14
Gassing Station | Morgan | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff