How much oil in 1500?
Discussion
so glad that its not just me thinking of oil temp before the day starts,so much faffing around in jersey do all the warm ups like lcm stated then some numpty will want to leave the hotel[we have a hotel at the start line]or some other life or death problem ie seagull flew overhead and looked at coc in a funny way,anyway was looking at the stick on pads for the sump, plug in to small genny and 30mins or so oil 80 degrees,thoughts guys. dave.
when i bought betty from lcm was told get oil 60 degrees mim to keep engine in tip top condition,and this advice backed up by bike engine builders plus would dare not go against lcm as all things he has told me has come true,apart from the world will come to a end 7 days after i bought betty lol.
doctordave said:
so glad that its not just me thinking of oil temp before the day starts,so much faffing around in jersey do all the warm ups like lcm stated then some numpty will want to leave the hotel[we have a hotel at the start line]or some other life or death problem ie seagull flew overhead and looked at coc in a funny way,anyway was looking at the stick on pads for the sump, plug in to small genny and 30mins or so oil 80 degrees,thoughts guys. dave.
The pad thing sounds interesting. I guess they could also be applied to the dry sump tank. Hmm. You have a link to the info? Ta!paulmj said:
doctordave said:
so glad that its not just me thinking of oil temp before the day starts,so much faffing around in jersey do all the warm ups like lcm stated then some numpty will want to leave the hotel[we have a hotel at the start line]or some other life or death problem ie seagull flew overhead and looked at coc in a funny way,anyway was looking at the stick on pads for the sump, plug in to small genny and 30mins or so oil 80 degrees,thoughts guys. dave.
The pad thing sounds interesting. I guess they could also be applied to the dry sump tank. Hmm. You have a link to the info? Ta!Anyone have experience with this product??? Very seriously considering it.
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/engine-pr...
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/engine-pr...
Stick on heaters...
http://dieselproducts.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro....
http://www.wolverineheater.com/
http://dieselproducts.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro....
http://www.wolverineheater.com/
Edited by MNGT3 on Saturday 21st January 15:33
Agree.
If one is so minded it seems to me that a sump pad is the way to go: if things haven't changed since my 2010 RS, RPE now use a dandy cast sump (rather than a CNC billet job) which is excellent in this respect; naturally grippy surface and good thickness which improves thermal capacity and conductivity, therefore onward transmission by conductivity to the oil.
Problem? Would it's closeness to the undertray melt it, worse still, set fire to it? .......... I know that would help heat the oil, but not quite what one had in mind? Solution? Engineer a secure removeable 'full size of pad plus a bit' flap underlying the pad? Afterall, a lot of road cars have such temporarily removeable access devices.
Alternative? When the engine is running on a dry sump motor, the majority of the overall oil quantity is up in the dry sump tank. Put a shut off valve on the supply back to engine line to keep it held in the tank at final shut down; have a heating pad wrap on the dry sump tank; upon next cold start, use that to pre-heat the oil held in the dry sump tank; get the oil to a decent temp, switch off pad, open valve and give it a short period to let it 'decant' back by gravity into engine where it would normally be held. Status quo so re-established, start the engine and commence first stage start-up cycle.
If one is so minded it seems to me that a sump pad is the way to go: if things haven't changed since my 2010 RS, RPE now use a dandy cast sump (rather than a CNC billet job) which is excellent in this respect; naturally grippy surface and good thickness which improves thermal capacity and conductivity, therefore onward transmission by conductivity to the oil.
Problem? Would it's closeness to the undertray melt it, worse still, set fire to it? .......... I know that would help heat the oil, but not quite what one had in mind? Solution? Engineer a secure removeable 'full size of pad plus a bit' flap underlying the pad? Afterall, a lot of road cars have such temporarily removeable access devices.
Alternative? When the engine is running on a dry sump motor, the majority of the overall oil quantity is up in the dry sump tank. Put a shut off valve on the supply back to engine line to keep it held in the tank at final shut down; have a heating pad wrap on the dry sump tank; upon next cold start, use that to pre-heat the oil held in the dry sump tank; get the oil to a decent temp, switch off pad, open valve and give it a short period to let it 'decant' back by gravity into engine where it would normally be held. Status quo so re-established, start the engine and commence first stage start-up cycle.
LCM said:
We fitted a small Mocal heat exchanger
Very good idea and has worked well for me, helps get the oil temp up quickly (alomst in line with water temps) and helps reduce greatly reduce the need to run the engine for long periods to get everything up to temp (and therefore minimise engine hours).In relation to the use of heating blankets for dry sumped engines, then heating up the oil in the tank, would make more sense than the sump. Going on the basis that all the oil is kept in the tank and this is where the scavenge pump takes it supply from. Any oil is the sump is just getting sent back to the tank and not to engine.
Another point to consider is that standard radical oil cooler (& water radiator come to mention it) is (are) enormous. On previous 'Busa powered cars, I successfully ran coolers less than half the size of the Radical ones. Worth considering if you are not constrainted by being 100% Rad compliant and want to shed a chunk of unnecessary weight.
Edited by tonto1 on Sunday 22 January 14:46
Surely the point is not the get the oil up to temperature but the engine.
Having a cold engine with a hot dry sump tank is not going to help anyone. What you need is to get the heat soaked through all the engine components, the normal measure of how successful that has been achieved is the oil temp.
The professional pre-heaters warm the oil (or water) externally and pump it round the engine to attain the heat soak without running the engine.
Having a cold engine with a hot dry sump tank is not going to help anyone. What you need is to get the heat soaked through all the engine components, the normal measure of how successful that has been achieved is the oil temp.
The professional pre-heaters warm the oil (or water) externally and pump it round the engine to attain the heat soak without running the engine.
SportsLibre said:
Surely the point is not the get the oil up to temperature but the engine.
Having a cold engine with a hot dry sump tank is not going to help anyone. What you need is to get the heat soaked through all the engine components, the normal measure of how successful that has been achieved is the oil temp.
The professional pre-heaters warm the oil (or water) externally and pump it round the engine to attain the heat soak without running the engine.
Blimey 'Gus is this the 3rd time we've agreed in 12 months?Having a cold engine with a hot dry sump tank is not going to help anyone. What you need is to get the heat soaked through all the engine components, the normal measure of how successful that has been achieved is the oil temp.
The professional pre-heaters warm the oil (or water) externally and pump it round the engine to attain the heat soak without running the engine.
Do you think we should get married or something?
Anyway, I think you're right. I work on the basis that starting with nicely warm fluids allows some pre-soak (bit like a detergent ad this, what?) and cuts the time that you have to run the engine to complete the job.
Picking up the sump/tank topic. Now shoot me down if I'm wrong, but in all the dry-sump 'Busas that I've had the oil drains back into the drysump pan/crankcase under gravity when the engine isn't running. This surely means that if one wanted to go the hot pad route (do they do them for drivers' backs, I wonder) then one would either have to heat the sump or adopt Trev's/Accusump's idea of holding the oil in the tank rather than letting it drain back into the engine. If anyone wants to try it, I do have a new standard Accusump valve sitting here that is surplus to requirements and would be free to a good home (collect or pay the P&P).
So the actual problem as I see it is that the previously quoted instructions to get the "oil warm enough" do not work. The determining measure is the 60 degree oil temp in the running engine. This is to do with the temp of the fluids and the core temp of the engine. So clearly just warming the bulk of the oil in the DS tank (say) will not solve this problem.
So we have to get heat into it somehow. I think we have the following possibilities:
External oil and coolant heater. Use these to warm everything up by circulating hot fluids without running the engine.
Use an oil heater in conjunction with running the engine.
Cool the coolant while the car is static (rad fan) and just run the engine for longer.
Use an oil-water intercooler to make the heating work better and run the engine
Have a thermostat on the mahoosive oil cooler to stop the oil being cooled as its run
Any more?
Bert
So we have to get heat into it somehow. I think we have the following possibilities:
External oil and coolant heater. Use these to warm everything up by circulating hot fluids without running the engine.
Use an oil heater in conjunction with running the engine.
Cool the coolant while the car is static (rad fan) and just run the engine for longer.
Use an oil-water intercooler to make the heating work better and run the engine
Have a thermostat on the mahoosive oil cooler to stop the oil being cooled as its run
Any more?
Bert
XG332 said:
The main reason we use them is it massively cuts engine running time. Over the space of a season and testing it add up to alot.
So we are back to where we started! The oil heating solution does work!The daft thing is that it really doesn't matter much at all running the engine to warm it up. It only matters in the totting up to the magic 30 hours.
Bert
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