How much oil in 1500?
Discussion
A number of us in the clubmans championship have fitted these..
http://www.engineheaters.co.uk/
For an SR3 RS you need model no 16 ( 240v ) which is rated at 250watts.
The contact ( via website ) is a chap called David ( who must surely be tall dark handsome and slim ), is based in Canada, comes from Newcastle !!, and is extrememely helpful.
The above is £50 delievered to us in UK.......allow about 7 working days. Simple to fit, ( may be a bit fiddly ) and well within most DIYers capability ( including DoubleBert ).
One word of warning is that in the technical blurb it says that you should not keep them on "permanently" as it may burn the oil. It suggests about two hours ( I think ) to bring to temp. We were going to leave ours plugged in via a simple mechanical timer to switch on say 2-3 hours before engine start up..
Cheers
Tall dark hamdosme and slim chap...
http://www.engineheaters.co.uk/
For an SR3 RS you need model no 16 ( 240v ) which is rated at 250watts.
The contact ( via website ) is a chap called David ( who must surely be tall dark handsome and slim ), is based in Canada, comes from Newcastle !!, and is extrememely helpful.
The above is £50 delievered to us in UK.......allow about 7 working days. Simple to fit, ( may be a bit fiddly ) and well within most DIYers capability ( including DoubleBert ).
One word of warning is that in the technical blurb it says that you should not keep them on "permanently" as it may burn the oil. It suggests about two hours ( I think ) to bring to temp. We were going to leave ours plugged in via a simple mechanical timer to switch on say 2-3 hours before engine start up..
Cheers
Tall dark hamdosme and slim chap...
Well as I am now a fully-fledged DIY'er, I'd suggest the following...
The oil needs to be circulated round the engine as you heat the engine as well. Heating up the oil tank to 80 degrees and wanging it round a cold engine will be a complete waste of time (and all that heat). So I think it runs in conjunction with article 49 of the RPE instruction tome.
BB
The oil needs to be circulated round the engine as you heat the engine as well. Heating up the oil tank to 80 degrees and wanging it round a cold engine will be a complete waste of time (and all that heat). So I think it runs in conjunction with article 49 of the RPE instruction tome.
BB
BertBert said:
Well as I am now a fully-fledged DIY'er, I'd suggest the following...
The oil needs to be circulated round the engine as you heat the engine as well. Heating up the oil tank to 80 degrees and wanging it round a cold engine will be a complete waste of time (and all that heat). So I think it runs in conjunction with article 49 of the RPE instruction tome.
BB
The oil needs to be circulated round the engine as you heat the engine as well. Heating up the oil tank to 80 degrees and wanging it round a cold engine will be a complete waste of time (and all that heat). So I think it runs in conjunction with article 49 of the RPE instruction tome.
BB
80 degrees (C?) who said that, did I miss it?Is there a post somewhere called Racer Wheezes wherein someone has suggested adopting that well known medieval motorsport ploy of throwing very hot oil over one's competitors?
Edited by splitpin on Monday 23 January 15:58
as a very simple bloke ( and I know how technical all you girls are ) but there HAS to be some benefit to introducing a warm liquid to a cold engine..........surely ? I do realise that the engine will not immediately raise to same as oil temp, BUT it must shorten the time it takes to get the whole engine ( oil/metal/water etc ) to an acceptable level, and therefore must have a benefit....
Kind regards
A N Umpty
Kind regards
A N Umpty
double d racing said:
BUT it must shorten the time it takes to get the whole engine ( oil/metal/water etc ) to an acceptable level, and therefore must have a benefit....
Kind regards
A N Umpty
IMHO the engine oil temp thing is an indicator of two things not just the oil temp. So I would think that whilst warming the oil achieves one it will only help with the other. I suspect a little running will be needed too to achieve even design running temps of all the bits.Kind regards
A N Umpty
Surely, pre-warmed oil will have a lower viscocity, with the advantage is that it is less likely to blow your oil filter across the paddock when you start your engine with any more than 1micron of throttle open, and will flow into all those nooks and crannies. getting oil to where you want it to be. Too warm though and the viscocity will be too low and the oil won't stick to the metal bits. The importance of a warm engine I would have thought is to get all the clearances internally to the right tolerances before one thrashes the engine to within an inch of its life.
Not withstanding the reduced engine hours on tickover!
Not withstanding the reduced engine hours on tickover!
The main source of heat for the engine is those sparky up and downy things. So if you heat a tank of oil and then start the engine, you'll get some of the benefits of the hot oil, but it'll cool quickly.
So you have to do the two in conjunction. Heat the engine with running it alongside heating the oil with the tank heater. If there were also a thermostat to stop that huge oil cooler working against you, it'd be even better.
So you have to do the two in conjunction. Heat the engine with running it alongside heating the oil with the tank heater. If there were also a thermostat to stop that huge oil cooler working against you, it'd be even better.
Lots of answers here, but what is the real question and what are we hoping to 'achieve' by all this oil/engine heating??
1.) Reduced warm up time and engine running hours?
A proper engine heater (which warms and circulates hot oil/water round your engine without the engine turning) would give the optimum solution to this question and thats one of the main reason people running expensive proper 'race' engines (Judds, Cosworths, NME etc) adopt this technicque (that and the fact that these engines are built to such fine tolerances, which preclude the ability to turn them over 'cold' without damage).
A much more practical solution to this for a 'production' based engine is to run a water/oil heat exchanger, which can greatly help get the oil up to temp much quicker.
Pretty sure oil pre-heating only will have a fairly minimal effect in answer to this question.
2.) Reducing chance of damage from cold starts?
Again the only real answer to this question is the use of a proper engine heater.
Very important to bear in mind that Suzuki build these 'production' engines to be started in cold temperatures (not extreme cold) and the tolerances all those clever Japanese chaps used have not changed, so is this really necessary or overkill in normal circumstances?.
Oil pre-heating (electric pads on sump/oil tank etc) would certainly help in this regard as this will help reduce the viscosity of the oil and therefore increase it's penetrating and lubricating capabilities from the off (hence why these products are primarily aimed at use in cold climates, to avoid staring your engine with sludge in the sump and no lubrication).
3.) Some harmless technical chit-chat between like minded petrol heads?
All for that, interesting discussion so far, good job, keep it up etc etc.
1.) Reduced warm up time and engine running hours?
A proper engine heater (which warms and circulates hot oil/water round your engine without the engine turning) would give the optimum solution to this question and thats one of the main reason people running expensive proper 'race' engines (Judds, Cosworths, NME etc) adopt this technicque (that and the fact that these engines are built to such fine tolerances, which preclude the ability to turn them over 'cold' without damage).
A much more practical solution to this for a 'production' based engine is to run a water/oil heat exchanger, which can greatly help get the oil up to temp much quicker.
Pretty sure oil pre-heating only will have a fairly minimal effect in answer to this question.
2.) Reducing chance of damage from cold starts?
Again the only real answer to this question is the use of a proper engine heater.
Very important to bear in mind that Suzuki build these 'production' engines to be started in cold temperatures (not extreme cold) and the tolerances all those clever Japanese chaps used have not changed, so is this really necessary or overkill in normal circumstances?.
Oil pre-heating (electric pads on sump/oil tank etc) would certainly help in this regard as this will help reduce the viscosity of the oil and therefore increase it's penetrating and lubricating capabilities from the off (hence why these products are primarily aimed at use in cold climates, to avoid staring your engine with sludge in the sump and no lubrication).
3.) Some harmless technical chit-chat between like minded petrol heads?
All for that, interesting discussion so far, good job, keep it up etc etc.
tonto1 said:
Lots of answers here, but what is the real question and what are we hoping to 'achieve' by all this oil/engine heating??
1.) Reduced warm up time and engine running hours?
Pretty sure oil pre-heating only will have a fairly minimal effect in answer to this question.
and1.) Reduced warm up time and engine running hours?
Pretty sure oil pre-heating only will have a fairly minimal effect in answer to this question.
XG332 said:
The main reason we use them is it massively cuts engine running time. Over the space of a season and testing it add up to alot.
So in summary we're all in agreement...
1. the oil heater will not heat the engine but will deliver warm oil, and all its benefits to a cold engine...
2. We accept that the engine has to be run up to achieve required temperatures
3. This process shortens engine warm up time so has an inherent benefit on engine hours and ultimately on the £pocket.
4 And last but not least at £50 it simply is a "no brainer"...
Cheers
D D
1. the oil heater will not heat the engine but will deliver warm oil, and all its benefits to a cold engine...
2. We accept that the engine has to be run up to achieve required temperatures
3. This process shortens engine warm up time so has an inherent benefit on engine hours and ultimately on the £pocket.
4 And last but not least at £50 it simply is a "no brainer"...
Cheers
D D
A fascinating topic for sure - oil/oil viscosity etc, something of a black hole involving/demanding the attention of clever people in white coats.
We have something fairly unique here with our RPE Engines; redlined @ something like 10K, with an integral gearbox sharing lubricant with the engine (in other words a combined engine and gearbox which is only part water cooled, wherein oil has a secondary cooling function significantly beyond most other engine and gearbox combinations) and a multi-plate wet clutch. Radicals are also a global product, used in places as cold as say parts of Canada and as hot as places such as the UAE.
Unsurprisingly, we have a recommended oil spec of motorcycle engine specific 15W-50; I say 'unsurprisingly', because as one would expect, it is clearly a high viscosity fully synthetic oil aimed to perform in the environment of 'pedal firmly to the metal'. It cannot be and therefore is not an oil for 'everyday use' e.g. scrape the frost off the windscreen/cold starting, because if it was it would most likely be something like 0W/5W.
The motivation behind how the thread has involved is of course 'run time' compared to 'load time'. I seem to remember a previous thread (might have been BertBert I think) wherein the high proportion of the former compared to the latter was noted relative to the 30 Hour Warranty of the '1500' engine: I recollect roughly a data downloaded 'rate' of something like 2:1 or even higher?
Personally, I would appreciate learning what RPE think of ideas/initiatives like sump pan heaters, Accupump etc, based on the reality of such as the following scenario:
It is March, some track somewhere, 7.00am, ambient air temp 10degC (it is a nice day?!); a couple of bleary eyed Radicalers have just unloaded their Rad from the trailer in which it has sat for near on 12 hours with average overnight temperatures of say 5degC. They need to get temps up, not the least to go see that (usually deeply annoying) person with his/her (usually well overdue a calibration) noise meter.
Now, what/how best to do/what extra if anything to fit/equipment to deploy in order to both minimise run time and maximise engine longevity?
We have something fairly unique here with our RPE Engines; redlined @ something like 10K, with an integral gearbox sharing lubricant with the engine (in other words a combined engine and gearbox which is only part water cooled, wherein oil has a secondary cooling function significantly beyond most other engine and gearbox combinations) and a multi-plate wet clutch. Radicals are also a global product, used in places as cold as say parts of Canada and as hot as places such as the UAE.
Unsurprisingly, we have a recommended oil spec of motorcycle engine specific 15W-50; I say 'unsurprisingly', because as one would expect, it is clearly a high viscosity fully synthetic oil aimed to perform in the environment of 'pedal firmly to the metal'. It cannot be and therefore is not an oil for 'everyday use' e.g. scrape the frost off the windscreen/cold starting, because if it was it would most likely be something like 0W/5W.
The motivation behind how the thread has involved is of course 'run time' compared to 'load time'. I seem to remember a previous thread (might have been BertBert I think) wherein the high proportion of the former compared to the latter was noted relative to the 30 Hour Warranty of the '1500' engine: I recollect roughly a data downloaded 'rate' of something like 2:1 or even higher?
Personally, I would appreciate learning what RPE think of ideas/initiatives like sump pan heaters, Accupump etc, based on the reality of such as the following scenario:
It is March, some track somewhere, 7.00am, ambient air temp 10degC (it is a nice day?!); a couple of bleary eyed Radicalers have just unloaded their Rad from the trailer in which it has sat for near on 12 hours with average overnight temperatures of say 5degC. They need to get temps up, not the least to go see that (usually deeply annoying) person with his/her (usually well overdue a calibration) noise meter.
Now, what/how best to do/what extra if anything to fit/equipment to deploy in order to both minimise run time and maximise engine longevity?
Edited by splitpin on Tuesday 24th January 14:01
It's definitely a two and a half gaffa meeting. Depending on how cold it is, I'd be tempted to go for a legendary two and three quarter gaffas.
I am conducting my own development program with gaffa tape and string. It's pretty much finished and goes like this:
1 full bifta = 3 complete gaffas.
Decide on the desired gaffa coverage to achieve stable state oil temp when revving the nuts off in the race.
Say for snett in march that's actually the legendary 2.75 gaffas. So apply that gaffa'ing.
Then take a quarter gaffa and attach a long piece of string to it by rolling the edge of the tape around the string.
Apply said "removable" gaffa panel (now a full bifta) and tie the free end of the string to the steering wheel.
Off you go and hopefully on the warm up lap the magic 60 degrees will occur. Then with a smug flourish rip the removable gaffa off and Bob as they say is very much a close relation on either your Father or Mother's side.
BB
I am conducting my own development program with gaffa tape and string. It's pretty much finished and goes like this:
1 full bifta = 3 complete gaffas.
Decide on the desired gaffa coverage to achieve stable state oil temp when revving the nuts off in the race.
Say for snett in march that's actually the legendary 2.75 gaffas. So apply that gaffa'ing.
Then take a quarter gaffa and attach a long piece of string to it by rolling the edge of the tape around the string.
Apply said "removable" gaffa panel (now a full bifta) and tie the free end of the string to the steering wheel.
Off you go and hopefully on the warm up lap the magic 60 degrees will occur. Then with a smug flourish rip the removable gaffa off and Bob as they say is very much a close relation on either your Father or Mother's side.
BB
Very interesting reading on my PR6 have same issues heating the oil up this is my second PR6 first one was a wet sump so no issues but with the dry sump maybe i'm asking a daft question here why does the tank need to be so big i suppose i should phone Uncle Ted and ask!!
Martin Brooks has a blanket around his tank i asked him about it answer was heats oil up great in tank start it up with oil circulating temp drops down straight away his answer was one on the sump as well.
The last race of the year i did was in November v cold and windy was an alcomers at the walter hayes must of had the damm thing running for at least 45 mins to get that bloody light to go of. I was going to do the plum pudding main reason i didn't i thought i will never get the oil hot enough.
Could do what my dad used to do years ago with dry sump mini's heat the oil up in a saucepan over a gas stove.
Paul Steele had a kenlowe system fitted to one of his SR3 i thought they only heat the water up.
Martin Brooks has a blanket around his tank i asked him about it answer was heats oil up great in tank start it up with oil circulating temp drops down straight away his answer was one on the sump as well.
The last race of the year i did was in November v cold and windy was an alcomers at the walter hayes must of had the damm thing running for at least 45 mins to get that bloody light to go of. I was going to do the plum pudding main reason i didn't i thought i will never get the oil hot enough.
Could do what my dad used to do years ago with dry sump mini's heat the oil up in a saucepan over a gas stove.
Paul Steele had a kenlowe system fitted to one of his SR3 i thought they only heat the water up.
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