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ihouston

Original Poster:

149 posts

124 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Gents I am going to get the top tensioners changed and the gearbox oil and filter changed on my 2002 XK8 - I will be supplying the parts - can anyone give me an idea of what sort of labour costs I should expect from a good Jag Independent Specialist - ball park figures would be helpful.
Cheers
Ian

V12 Migaloo

476 posts

31 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
£60 per hour.... try Winspeed Motorsport in Guildford, Chris Window would be happy to oblige I'm sure

ihouston

Original Poster:

149 posts

124 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
How many hours labour involved in these two jobs

V12 Migaloo

476 posts

31 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
sorry mate, no idea

Jaguar steve

3,354 posts

95 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Gearbox oil and filter change on the ZF 'box should take no more than an hour. I'd be reassured if the garage kept the car in overnight so they could check the level once more when the transmission is stone cold. That's what I do but it's not essential.

Secondary timing chain tensioners should be no more than three hours.

Any competent mechanic would combine the two jobs in one operation and complete the work in probrably quite a bit less than that but you'll still be charged whatever the garages "book" time is for the two seperate jobs.
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timolloyd

177 posts

45 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
£60 an hour sounds right. Surrey Jag Centre in Croydon did my chains and tensioners earlier this year. Would definitely recommend them.

Rick101

2,261 posts

35 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Where abouts are you OP?

naki

123 posts

74 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
correct me if i am wrong, but i heard there is a "special procedure" for oil change on the x308 zf box? more involved than simply draining out the old oil, and refilling with the same quantity, unlike the older zf boxes.

if you are planning to keep the car, then it does sound like a good idea to do the prevention better than cure theory.

i would have thought full day in a garage would be more accurate for both upper and lower tensioner upgrade/ box oil (ie 8hrs x £60.
really though you need to be asking garages directly for a quote, as they may all have their own ideas about how long it takes!

NormanD

3,144 posts

113 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
naki said:
correct me if i am wrong, but i heard there is a "special procedure" for oil change on the x308 zf box? more involved than simply draining out the old oil, and refilling with the same quantity, unlike the older zf boxes.

if you are planning to keep the car, then it does sound like a good idea to do the prevention better than cure theory.
Correct

From memory the tensioners (a Full set) and labour + the VAT will be £1,000 give or take
Gearbox oil and filter change in the region of £300 the correct oil isn't cheep

I know not on you door step but TLJaguar at RG40-4TS 0118-976-2899 will look after you

Jaguar steve

3,354 posts

95 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
naki said:
correct me if i am wrong, but i heard there is a "special procedure" for oil change on the x308 zf box? more involved than simply draining out the old oil, and refilling with the same quantity, unlike the older zf boxes.

if you are planning to keep the car, then it does sound like a good idea to do the prevention better than cure theory.

i would have thought full day in a garage would be more accurate for both upper and lower tensioner upgrade/ box oil (ie 8hrs x £60.
really though you need to be asking garages directly for a quote, as they may all have their own ideas about how long it takes!
Yes there is. Crack off filler/wier plug and sump bolts, drain oil, remove sump, remove filter, clean sump pan, fit new filter and gasket and replace pan. Initial fill with the correct Esso/Mobil fluid to level of filler plug, then start engine and repeatedly cycle 'box through R N D whilst continuing to pump more oil in. Final level is correct when oil runs out of the filler hole for the second time with the gears being cycled and the engine still running and before the transmission temp goes above 40deg or so.

Simples.

OP asked about secondary tensioners only. I changed mine in less than 4 hours and that included coffee and thinking time as well as an hour or so cleaning up old gaskets to reuse them - so a mechanic with experience should do the job a lot faster than that.


NormanD

3,144 posts

113 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Jaguar steve said:
OP asked about secondary tensioners only. I changed mine in less than 4 hours and that included coffee and thinking time as well as an hour or so cleaning up old gaskets to reuse them - so a mechanic with experience should do the job a lot faster than that.
I would agree the top go first

But if you look at the bottom ones and the guides, the long curved shoes, they will also have cracks in them

Whey go to to trouble to only do half the job and come back to do the other half

ihouston

Original Poster:

149 posts

124 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Gents - thanks for the replies - only want to get top done as they are most prone to problems I believe
I am based in Kent so any thoughts on decent reliable Indies greatly appreciated
Cheers
Ian

NormanD

3,144 posts

113 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
ihouston said:
Gents - thanks for the replies - only want to get top done as they are most prone to problems I believe
As I said above, yes they go first, but the rest aren't far behind

Jaguar steve

3,354 posts

95 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
NormanD said:
ihouston said:
Gents - thanks for the replies - only want to get top done as they are most prone to problems I believe
As I said above, yes they go first, but the rest aren't far behind
Two entirely seperate issues here - embrittlement and premature failure of a known weak component and general wear and tear of the rest of the timing gear.

Both have roots in Jaguar's quest to save pennies and grammes, and both are compounded by an over optmistic 10000 service interval which all to often leaves severely degraded lubrication ability and highly acidic contaminants in the engine oil which fail to lubricate the chains adequately and attack the PTFE components in the timing gear. Oil contains plasticlears as part of the addative package which are designed to protect PTFE, silicon and other non metalic components in the engine and once these plasticlears are exhausted or destroyed any non metalic components are at risk. This is one reason why neglected engines develop oil leaks and blow heagaskets - seals and gaskets loose flexibility and fail or are attacked and erroded away by acidic contaminants.

The AJV8 engine also has uneven cam phasing which places repeated shockloads on the timing gear which will soon reveal any weaknesses or cracks in the tensioner bodies.

My view is provided the car has had regular oil changes and there is no visible wear on the sprockets or guides, no slack or evidence of stretch in the chains and most importantly the engine internals are bright and clean then there is no need to change all the timing gear, but it's still important to fit metal bodied secondary timing chain tensioners as the plastic versions can fail without warning. The cost of repairing an engine if valves contact pistons which they will do if the secondary tensioner fails and the exhaust cam timing slips more than one tooth is almost certainly a significant proportion of the value of most X308 or early XKs are worth now.




NormanD

3,144 posts

113 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Jaguar steve said:
Two entirely seperate issues here - embrittlement and premature failure of a known weak component and general wear and tear of the rest of the timing gear.
Same result though, they break and the engine goes POP

a8hex

3,642 posts

108 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Jaguar steve said:
The AJV8 engine also has uneven cam phasing which places repeated shockloads
Is that just a part of being a V8, you either use 1 cam or you get uneven cam timing.

Euro5stars

50 posts

26 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Got my '98 308 in to Swallows at Rooksbridge on Saturday for tensioners ( if they haven't been done, already), But im perplexed..... If you two boys cant agree, how do novices like us know what to do and how much to spend?
Guy at Swallows added to my confusion when I booked it in, by saying that he'd leave the box oil alone. His reasoning was that there are magnets(?) in the box and draining can disturb them and allow metal to ship about. He says if it works ok, he usually leaves it alone (will obviously know more when he sees it).
With the labour charge, it's always a hard decision about how you broach the subject with the garage. Push too hard on the price and they think you want a budget job doing and that's what you get OR get a fixed price, only to find he runs out of (your) money...again a shortened job. I've said to Swallows that I have a budget, give me a list of items that need doing, price it and then I add some. It's always going to be cheaper than main dealer and they will want you to come back. Recently went in to Grange in Swindon with a strong smell of petrol. They couldn't find anything, but told me the auxhillary belt was hanging by a thread....what do you do......feel £282 lighter. How do they do it? (Probably because I let em).

lestershaw

1,577 posts

43 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Will any garage actually warrantee any of the work they do if the don't supply the parts themselves, seems to me a bit of a shortcut not worth taking. Wynn jaguars in ivy chimneys wouldn't guarantee the work if I supplied the tensioner kit.
I'm very happy with Kevin's work at jagutek in ely

NormanD

3,144 posts

113 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
Euro5stars said:
Guy at Swallows added to my confusion when I booked it in, by saying that he'd leave the box oil alone. His reasoning was that there are magnets(?) in the box and draining can disturb them and allow metal to ship about.
That's rubbish, they should drain the oil then take the sump off to change the filter and clean the crud out the bottom

Jaguar steve

3,354 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
Euro5stars said:
Got my '98 308 in to Swallows at Rooksbridge on Saturday for tensioners ( if they haven't been done, already), But im perplexed..... If you two boys cant agree, how do novices like us know what to do and how much to spend?
Guy at Swallows added to my confusion when I booked it in, by saying that he'd leave the box oil alone. His reasoning was that there are magnets(?) in the box and draining can disturb them and allow metal to ship about. He says if it works ok, he usually leaves it alone (will obviously know more when he sees it).
With the labour charge, it's always a hard decision about how you broach the subject with the garage. Push too hard on the price and they think you want a budget job doing and that's what you get OR get a fixed price, only to find he runs out of (your) money...again a shortened job. I've said to Swallows that I have a budget, give me a list of items that need doing, price it and then I add some. It's always going to be cheaper than main dealer and they will want you to come back. Recently went in to Grange in Swindon with a strong smell of petrol. They couldn't find anything, but told me the auxhillary belt was hanging by a thread....what do you do......feel £282 lighter. How do they do it? (Probably because I let em).
It's not we can't agree because the bottom line is each engine must be indivdually assessed. As a general guide I tend to agree with the JEC technical experts on this one, and that is the plastic secondary tensioners can and will fail without warning at anytime and eventually at at some time and just like any other engine component the chains will stretch and the slippers and guides for those chains will wear. If you have an unlimited budget then sure, replace the lot if it'll give you peace of mind, if not then replacing the secondary tensioners alone is a cost effective bit of preventative maintainence.

One guide is engine condition. If it's a high mileage one with a patchy service history and the engine internals are contaminated with brown tarry deposits then chances are the all the timing gear will be showing signs of wear that'll be a cause for concern, if not and the engine is showing bright clean metal then it's likley all that's needed is a tensioner change.

The trade of course has a vested interest in encouraging the belief all the timing gear must be changed regardless - more chargable hours and profit for the garage in doing the full job.

As far as the gearbox goes then the advice to leave the original oil in is not in your best interest. By 50k miles the original oil will almost certainly be heavily contaminated with friction material from the clutches, and the sump magnets will have collected the inevitable metalic particles from wear and tear. Changing the oil does not get all the old oil out
(some remains in the torque converter) but it's the best you can do to preserve the gearbox. Changing oil is always cheaper than changing the component it's lubricating. Doing the job properly means removing the sump and changing the filter inside and that's the time to clean the magnets and the inside of the sump pan.

Obviously I've taken my own advice and run an XJ V8 to past 100k with no problems at all from either the timing gear or gearbox by fitting the metal bodied tensioners and changing the gearbox oil and filter the moment I bought it at 60k, and changing the oil again at around 85k.

Dispite the car having a good history and bright clean engine internals one of the two tensioners was split and the piston inside was only being held in place by the tension of the chain - disaster waiting to happen.
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