Went to see my first Jag XJR

[mnaylor]

Hi,

I went to see a Jag XJR yesterday. It was a 2000 in blue. It drove nicely and the car does not feel as big as it is. The bad points were as follows and I am looking for some advice:

Sagging headlining, common.

Rust on all 4 arch lips but very minor, not actually on the body with the exception of the front left wing which has about an inch worth of bubbling at the bottom. Is this common?

Knocking from rear suspension but the noise got better and better as we drove and eventually dissapeared, I am assuming shocks?

Once we had been for a drive and stopped the car a small puddle formed below the CAT, it looked and smelt like water rather than cooloant. The owner said it was condensation from the air con? Is this right?

Few car park dings that would annoy me.

This is the first one I have seen so would like to know if this sort of thing is the norm or not. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
Mike

[NormanD]

mnaylor said:

Once we had been for a drive and stopped the car a small puddle formed below the CAT, it looked and smelt like water rather than cooloant. The owner said it was condensation from the air con? Is this right?

Thanks
Mike

I expext that is condensation

Although the car sounds verry Tatty

I have a '99 I'm just about to put on the market

Again blue but in a VERRY good condition, also just had it's annual service


Not too far from you in you are interested do eMail me

[Gallen]

Hi there,

I'll try to answer some of your Q's!

op said:

Sagging headlining, common.

Does this bother you? Common issue.
http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/10279540-How-NOT-...

op said:

Rust on all 4 arch lips but very minor, not actually on the body with the exception of the front left wing which has about an inch worth of bubbling at the bottom. Is this common?

Yes - They rust out from behind the mud-flaps and it's very common.
Do consider that if there is rust on the arch lips this will only spread. It needs fixing properly to stop it.

op said:

Knocking from rear suspension but the noise got better and better as we drove and eventually dissapeared, I am assuming shocks?

Could be the bush, but its the whole assembly out so I believe:
http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xj-x308-xj8-xjr-...

op said:

Once we had been for a drive and stopped the car a small puddle formed below the CAT, it looked and smelt like water rather than cooloant. The owner said it was condensation from the air con? Is this right?

Sounds plausible

op said:

Few car park dings that would annoy me.

Do you know a dent man? Where are you based?

op said:

This is the first one I have seen so would like to know if this sort of thing is the norm or not. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

How much is the car? Does it allow these points to be fixed?


Gallen.

[mnaylor]

Thanks for the responses. I am based in East Grinstead, near Crawley/Gatwick.

It sounds like this one should be avoided so I will do so. It was the first one I had seen. The rust is my main concern as I hate the stuff and don't want to buy a car only to have to spend a load on it straight away.

I also think it is overpriced as he wants £3000 for it but it has been for sale for 2 months and I was the first person to view it! I got the impression he would have taken a lot less for it but I don't even want to make him an offer, can't be bothered to get involved with a car that needs loads of work.

It is a buyer's market so I will only buy one that I am happy with at the right price for me, I am in no rush.

Edited by mnaylor on Tuesday 30th July 16:34

[NormanD]

mnaylor said:

Thanks for the responses. I am based in East Grinstead, near Crawley/Gatwick.

It sounds like this one should be avoided so I will do so. It was the first one I had seen. The rust is my main concern as I hate the stuff and don't want to buy a car only to have to spend a load on it straight away.

I also think it is overpriced as he wants £3000 for it but it has been for sale for 2 months and I was the first person to view it! I got the impression he would have taken a lot less for it but I don't even want to make him an offer, can't be bothered to get involved with a car that needs loads of work.

It is a buyer's market so I will only buy one that I am happy with at the right price for me, I am in no rush.

Got problems with my email, someone has got into it and sent spams

Can you call me on 07860 558808 please

[Gallen]

3k is too much with those issues...and you're right it is a buyers market.

None of those issues would have put me off - had it been priced right.

They are common issues which happen in time to most examples.

- I'll PM you with details of mine which is going up soon (as this is not a "wanted" thread). It might give you an indication of value.

Gallen.

[giblet]

Sorry to hijack the thread but I would be interested in seeing what sort of educated valuation you chaps would put on my car as I'm planning to sell it at the end of August and prices seem to be all over the place.

Anthracite black metallic 1998 XJR, 103,500 miles with full history, will come with a fresh MOT and 6 months tax, 3rd gen upper and lower tensioners, recently serviced with new plugs. Bodywork has a few marks and some rust on the OSF arch but none on the rear and the usual spots underneath. Bodywork is in average condition wih a few trolley dings, Ivory interior is good aside from the drivers seat which has the usual wear for a car of this age. Headlining is sagging but I will be repairing it prior to the sale. I've spent over £1k on it in the last 3 months on a replacement engine oil and pas coolers, cam cover seals, bushes etc. Cheers

[HaylingJag]

Hi Giblet,

you may as well write off that money recently spent. Top end 3k due to the tensioners and chains but unfortunately bidding will start at about £1500 anywhere inbetween will be what someone is willing to pay.

I have the same with my XJR, last year, in fact only 3000 miles ago, i had 4 new ZZ5's, £700, charger pulley, £500 fitted, lowered uprated springs £500 fitted. 3yrs ago, head gaskets, chains, tensioners, water pump, £2,000........all unrecoverable costs and the car is probably worth £2k maybe £2.5?

I have just aquired an XJ-c that needs some spending on though i see this as an investment, unfortunatly the V8-r is neither here or there in the car pecking order. not rare enough to get collectable nor new enough to be desireable! Good news if your buying, crap if you want to sell.
I will not sell mine for £2k as i will not get the comfort, performance or prestige anywhere else for the money.

Weigh it up Giblet, if you can lock it away and forget about it for 10 years, you never know

[mnaylor]

The good news is I am looking to buy. I am hoping £3k can get me an example without any issues. Plus I am willing to hold out for the right car, some of the ones for sale on line have been sitting there for months!

[Jaguar steve]

OVERVIEW

To avoid model confusion between the several XJ variants the 1997-2002 V8 engined XJ is often referred to by its factory designation as the X308. The V8 engine in the X308 is available in a 3.2, a 4.0 with VVT and a supercharged 4.0 and all versions are 5 speed auto only
£3000 should buy you a good example, but the best low mileage cars are priced at considerably more than that. Engines were revised in late 1999 for the 2000 model year to deal with early problems and a car fitted with the revised engine version can be identified by a VIN number ending in five, not six digits.
Pre engine revision cars had weak water pumps, secondary timing chain tensioners, throttle bodies and a Nicasil coating applied directly on the aluminum block bore walls rather than using conventional liners pressed into the block.

ENGINE
Some Nicasil coatings suffered from bore erosion due to a combination of high Sulphur content fuel and repeated short trips that caused an acidic build up in the oil that etched away the Nicasil coating. Sulphur maximum allowable limits in petrol were lowered considerably in Jan 2000 so any pre 2000 Nicasil coated V8 engine that's still OK now should be fine forever. Several engines were changed under warranty so you may see a pre 2000 car with a later steel lined engine fitted - identify this by the presence of a green tag on the head at the back of the RH bank and the engine change should also be recorded in the history. Symptoms of bore erosion resulting in loss of compression are poor cold starting, a rough idle and heavy oil deposits in the breather system and air intakes. Crankcase pressure will be high too – a quick check is to slightly lift the oil filler cap at hot idle. There should be little or no internal pressure or fumes escaping. Jaguar dealers can perform a blow by check to determine engine condition. A good condition engine will show less than 25 l/m, anything over 40 l/m will make a good Top Gear coffee table.

Impellors on early water pumps can disintegrate giving a loss of efficiency leading to overheating and potential head gasket failure. An early pump can be upgraded for the later version with a metal, not plastic impellor. The temperature gauge is software driven and not always an accurate refection of actual coolant temperature.

For an indication of water pump efficiency, remove the coolant header tank cap when the engine is STONE COLD, start up and gently increase engine speed. If the water pump is healthy you should see a steady stream of coolant into the tank from the thin return pipe that runs back from the front of the engine.

You may be able to identify the later type of pump by the presence of a black plastic, not metal gasket, but the only certain way is to remove the pump and have a look and if you’re doing that stick a new one on anyway and flush the system and renew the coolant. Sprung coolant hose clips can loose tension and allow pipes to blow off and some plastic parts on the hoses, unions and thermostat housing are delicate. It’s worth replacing all the sprung coolant clips with proper Jubilee ones. Check all over for evidence of coolant leaks, particularly around the thermostat/filler cap tower as this is a fragile component.

Occasional auxiliary heater pump failures can lead to no heat output in the cabin at low engine RPM. Cycle the whole climate and a/c system through all vent operations and temperature range. Two types of coolant available for the XJ - don’t mix the later orange long life one with the earlier type.

Early throttle bodies ought to have all have been changed to the later design under a factory safety recall. Some of the early bodies suffered from weak/failing actuating motors causing to the engine to cut out completely on the overrun. The later design should be fitted to all cars from VIN 043775 onwards.

The only post 1999 revision engine issue is the secondary timing chain tensioners. These were revised to a mk 2 version at the same time as the rest of the 1999 engine revisions but the mk 2 type still had a plastic body which can crack or break up leading to slipped or broken chains. Mk 1 tensioners are actuated by engine oil pressure and failure can often be identified by a sharp rattling noise similar to a bicycle chain dragging on the chain guard on a cold start. The mk2 type is permanently tensioned by an integral spring which usually means it’ll fail silently.

A permanent solution is to retro-fit the later mk3 version tensioner made with a metal, not plastic body from the later 4.2 incarnation of the V8 engine and the only way to be sure of which tensioners are fitted to an X308 is to either have a receipt with part numbers C2A1511 and C2A1512 which are the metal bodied type and the required 4 new bolts to fit them on it relating to that particular car or remove the RH cam cover - the LH is a PITA to get off - and have a look. An orange (mk1) or cream (mk2) plastic tensioner body is bad news, a grey metal one (mk3) is good.

The cam phasing on the V8 means the timing gear works hard and timing chains can stretch at high mileages or on neglected cars. If this is identified then a full chain and tensioner replacement is required costing up to £1000. If the chains are fine then it’s a wise precaution to fit the mk3 secondary tensioners which is a fairly easy DIY job. Tensioners cost around £75 a set plus a couple of quid for new bolts. Cam setting tools for this job and all other special tools needed for any work on an X308 can all be hired from the Jaguar Enthusiasts’ Club. Secondary tensioners can also be changed without any tools by removing the exhaust cam whilst preserving the timing with a tie wrap holding the chain on the sprocket and fiddling them out.

Exhaust cam chains slipping one tooth – usually on a cold start - will give a rough running engine, more than one tooth means exhaust valves meet pistons.

A good general rule of thumb for engine condition is internal cleanliness. Bright shiny metal inside the oil filler cap and dipstick along with clean oil and no evidence of leaks is a good sign, as is clear coolant that does not smell or tasted bitter or acrid.


GEARBOX/ DRIVELINE ISSUES
All X308s have a “sealed for life” gearbox. Loads have failed now - just look on ebay in the non runners or spares and repairs section. Any car that hesitates or engages Drive with a jerk or thump as the engine speed rises has a potential gearbox failure looming, changes should be seamless and quiet and you should be able to play tunes with the throttle, Sport switch and J gate selector.
A very faint whine may be heard in intermediate gears. Any gearbox problems or concerns are potentially fatal. An oil and filter change may be all that’s needed to cure a gearbox malfunction but that’s never guaranteed.


Ideally the gearbox oil and filter should be changed at 50k then at 25k intervals; it's not a simple drain and refill on the ZF box as the final fill has to be done quickly with the engine running and within a narrow temperature range.
The ZF 5 speed box on the n/a cars requires Esso/Mobil longlife LT 71141 fluid also known as Lifeguard Fluid 5 and not conventional Dexron 3. The Mercedes gearbox in the supercharged version is also sealed for life but the same change requirement apply although you can use Dexron 3 in this box and it’s a less complex job to do. Some transmission specialists offer a flush and change service done via the oil cooler pipes which also gets the oil otherwise retained in the torque converter out.

The same applies to the rear axle. Oil should be changed but there’s no drain plug. Old oil has to be vacuum extracted out of the filler plug. Refill with a API GL5 75 or 85/90 oil

BODY, PAINT AND CORROSION
Look for corrosion on the rear wheel arches, round the front and rear screens especially underneath the screen rubbers in the bottom corners, bottom of the front wings and most importantly behind the front shocks on both sides. There's a reinforcing plate where the engine sub frame is bolted to the body rail and some cars have corroded badly here. This corrosion may also be visible in the engine compartment on the top of the body rail around the heads of the bolts that retain the top of the V mounts. It's an MOT fail too and a big welding job. Body and paintwork is otherwise pretty good however some darker coloured cars suffer from peeling lacquer. Bumper corners are susceptible to damage and bumper brackets can work loose.

Paint lacquer on the XJ is soft and easy to scratch with careless washing – don’t let a swirly, hazy or dull finish put you off though. Providing you can’t actually feel the damage and the paint colour underneath is OK it’s possible to restore the bodywork to a very good finish with a through clean, polish and wax. Stripe down body flanks if car has one is hand painted and not always completely straight.

INTERIOR
Always leather with different levels of trim and seat design. Wood trim clips on and is easy to change to different type. Drivers seat and steering wheels tend to suffer from wear. Headlinings can sag. LWB version obviously has more room in back.

SUSPENSION, TYRES AND BRAKES
X308s are hard on suspension and brakes, listen and feel very carefully for any clonking or knocking and make sure the car comes to a straight judder-free stop under both light and hard braking. A sharp rattle heard and felt through the steering over bumps combined with a little free play in the steering wheel may be a worn crush joint on the lower steering column.

A clattery rattle from the rear is likely to be failed shocks or shock bushes. X308s with weak rear A frame bushes will tend to self steer and wander about under hard acceleration.

Feel round all the tyres for uneven wear patterns; any suspension wear or bush failure giving incorrect geometry will cause tyres to feather oddly and heavy wear in the inside edges is a symptom of excess negative camber from wishbone bush failure. Very slight even feathering is normal, especially on the fronts.

All Jaguar XJs are very sensitive to wheel and tyre imbalances or damage, typically you'll feel a steering wobble between 50-70MPH and possibly vibration through the seat if there are any tyre problems or buckled wheels. Incorrect tyre pressures, worn out or cheap budget tyres will severely affect handling and ride. Some X308s exhibit a faint exhaust vibration or harmonic around 50 and another one at 65MPH. You might possibly experience a hint of driveline vibration through the body too.

Don't expect too much in the way of the legendary Jaguar ride quality either - it's pretty good on touring (black shocks) suspension and 16" wheels but sport suspension cars (green shocks) are stiffer and have a up rated front antiroll bar and one on the rear too which when combined with larger diameter wheels and lower profile tyres gives a hard crashy ride on poor roads. CATS suspension may be fitted as an option to any X308 CATS has electronically controlled valves in the shocks to vary the damping rates depending on driving style. Identify CATS by the presence of a plastic cover over the top of the front shock absorber with a lead going into it.



ELECTRICIAL/ OBD2 DIAGNOSTICS
Electrical systems are generally pretty robust. As with any old car you might have the odd problem so check absolutely everything works. Even the earliest X308 is OBD2 compliant and a £20 code reader plugged into the socket in the driver’s footwell will help diagnosis a lot. Electric aerials are vunerable, there are occasional O2 sensor, airflow meter and brake light switch failures.
XJ’s need a strong battery to avoid random error messages appearing on start up. If you get one – usually TRAC FAIL – the battery is on its way out or needs several days on a trickle charge to bring it back up to good capacity.

BUYING AND LIVING WITH AN XJ
Generally the 1998-2002 XJ8 is a strong car and capable of big mileages if maintained well and not abused or neglected. It's mostly easy enough to DIY and parts are reasonable and in good supply from several independents and the Jaguar Classic Parts scheme. Expect around 26/8 MPG on the motorway, 20/4 round town and mid teens or less if you nail it everywhere. Tyres are around £100/130 a corner in 16" diameter size. The 3.2 is quick enough (0-60 is 8s) the 4.0 is much rarer and does the same in 7.0.

Shortening intervals between servicing and using a genuine fully synthetic oil is worthwhile. It’ll help protect the timing chains and give improved fuel economy. A through rustproofing and full fluid change is a benefit too if you want to preserve the car. Official servicing is annual or 10000miles. 70k service is the expensive one on n/a cars.

One last thing. A software fault means you should never start an XJ8 from cold and then switch off again straightaway and before allowing the temp gauge to move off the cold section of the scale. Chances are it’ll flood when you next start and wash all the oil of the bores and it’s a right PITA to get it running again.

[lestershaw]

I might be tempted to sell mine ( too many cars)
1998 black with black interior
8 months mot
79,000 miles
Pulley upgrade
Latest tensioners
All chains done
Gearbox oil changed
Recent alternator
New water pump
Two new front wings
Cruise control
New front calipers and disks
New bottom steering joints
New front wheel bearing.
No knocks or clunks and drives really nicely
Lots of tread on all Tyres
Bbs wheels

Only bad points a little bit of rust on rear wings, which I will do if I keep
I would not take less than £3000 but that does include another whole black car with black interior which I have for spares. It was driving when I took it off the road but would probably need trailering. I won't reduce the price if the spare car doesn't go with it, but its my gift if anyone does want it.
Or else it's my grand Cherokee or Tvr that will go as I need a Vivaro type van

[mnaylor]

Thanks for the offer but I am after a rust free example, assuming such an example exists

[lestershaw]

I sold one earlier this year to member zippyworld. Best one I've ever seen, I bought it from him and he bought it back from me at 65,000 miles.
Sorry I didn't mean it to be like I was offering my car to you as I don't really want to sell as it is very hard to replace that much car with anything else for similar money. I would prefer to sell the Tvr as I don't use it enough.
Mind you, all/ most jags rust it's just a question of when . If you are prepared one day to treat the rust on your jag, it might be an idea to use it as a bargaining point at the outside, presuming its superficial and not terminal
Lester

[NormanD]

mnaylor said:

Thanks for the offer but I am after a rust free example, assuming such an example exists

I can't see any rust on mine !!

[Zippyworld]

Hi Lester,

Its still the best I have seen too heh heh !

Still cant quite get my head round why I parted company with it in the first place.

Fantastic cars for what they cost to buy nowadays

As for the OP theres better out there, a lot better for £3k

[mnaylor]

NormanD said:

I can't see any rust on mine !!

Norman, I will try and call you later, just been really busy with work etc.

Mike

[SV8Predator]

giblet said:

Sorry to hijack the thread but I would be interested in seeing what sort of educated valuation you chaps would put on my car as I'm planning to sell it at the end of August and prices seem to be all over the place.

Anthracite black metallic 1998 XJR, 103,500 miles with full history, will come with a fresh MOT and 6 months tax, 3rd gen upper and lower tensioners, recently serviced with new plugs. Bodywork has a few marks and some rust on the OSF arch but none on the rear and the usual spots underneath. Bodywork is in average condition wih a few trolley dings, Ivory interior is good aside from the drivers seat which has the usual wear for a car of this age. Headlining is sagging but I will be repairing it prior to the sale. I've spent over £1k on it in the last 3 months on a replacement engine oil and pas coolers, cam cover seals, bushes etc. Cheers

From the description, I would think a dealer would offer (as a trade-in of course) £600-800 and you may aim for about £1600 on a private sale.

This is the real world, remember.

[giblet]

HaylingJag said:

Hi Giblet,

you may as well write off that money recently spent. Top end 3k due to the tensioners and chains but unfortunately bidding will start at about £1500 anywhere inbetween will be what someone is willing to pay.

Weigh it up Giblet, if you can lock it away and forget about it for 10 years, you never know

I would keep it if I could but having been unemployed for 6 months now the XJR is costing me far too much to run. Averaged 14mpg on my last fillup.

SV8Predator said:

From the description, I would think a dealer would offer (as a trade-in of course) £600-800 and you may aim for about £1600 on a private sale.

This is the real world, remember.

Those are the kind of figures I was expecting. I am ideally hoping for a sale price of around the £2k mark but there are very few cars I can get for that cash that will give me the same satisfaction as the XJR. Damn these high fuel prices!

[mnaylor]

Still looking for an XJR. I will pay up to £3000 for the right car.

Thanks
Mike

[NormanD]

mnaylor said:

Still looking for an XJR. I will pay up to £3000 for the right car.

When I used to employ staff there was a Quotation. 'If you pay Peanuts you get Monkeys'

Same goes with buying cars, ' Pay Peanuts you end up buying Rustbuckets and problems' !!
OK you save a grand or two orriginally but then pay any 1,000s more putting the car right after