RE: Jaguar unveils new coupe concept
Discussion
Yeah Havoc, intended Jaguar to be a competitor for BMW and Mercedes...
They had a great sucess with the S-type R, and the 3.0 and 4.0 v6 and v8 repsectively were great engines. The 3.0 V6 was a great engine for it's size.
Yet in the X-type, the same unit is de-tuned and mated to 4wd.
No pure rwd version.
No hot version.
Both Mercedes with AMG, and BMW with M, have range toppers that kind of promote the sporting intentions of the brand, which does help to sell the Mercs and BMW's of lesser power and performance.
Jaguar really should have looked towards actually releasing a decent X-Type range, and platform sharing with the Mondeo was probably the main problem.
I don't claim to know the answers to the problem Jag is in, nor exactly how they got there... but I do see LOADS of potential even in the current model range that simply is not being realised!
X-Type, have a RWD and an R version... since the 3.0 V6 awd, there have been no superior performance versions to "enhance" the brand like many other manufacturers do. Like RS4 in last year of old A4 production to enhance sales of rest of range etc.
Best Jag did was make cheaper nasty versions instead, and that only de-valued the brand more, making people see "expensive Mondeo" rather than cheap BMW/Merc which is what the point was from the start.
S-Type R should ideally have more grunt now. Even Evo magazine says it's the best big saloon at the moment, until the new M5 hits the roads. That is high praise indeed, and could be invigorated more by a newer updated model featuring on the front of all the magazines. 450bhp would be easy with the supercharger already on, maybe even throw in the Ford GT engine, they like component sharing
Maybe make it a proper 6 speed paddley auto like the new DB9... would appeal to the people who are after an auto but like paddles too!?
XKR, same as above //
Just a few of my opinions. They've already tempted us with some awesome cars over the last 6 years, starting with the admittedly internally made XK180...
In my opinion, if they want to compete with BMW and Mercedes, they need to do what they do, and have serious sporting models at the top of their lineup...
That Jaguar in the pic looks like it has the lights of the new Mustang, kind of all angled contrasting with the smooth sides. Not like I care, like they'll ever make it. Ford will chicken out and just release a fwd 2 litre diesel XJ!
Dave
They had a great sucess with the S-type R, and the 3.0 and 4.0 v6 and v8 repsectively were great engines. The 3.0 V6 was a great engine for it's size.
Yet in the X-type, the same unit is de-tuned and mated to 4wd.
No pure rwd version.
No hot version.
Both Mercedes with AMG, and BMW with M, have range toppers that kind of promote the sporting intentions of the brand, which does help to sell the Mercs and BMW's of lesser power and performance.
Jaguar really should have looked towards actually releasing a decent X-Type range, and platform sharing with the Mondeo was probably the main problem.
I don't claim to know the answers to the problem Jag is in, nor exactly how they got there... but I do see LOADS of potential even in the current model range that simply is not being realised!
X-Type, have a RWD and an R version... since the 3.0 V6 awd, there have been no superior performance versions to "enhance" the brand like many other manufacturers do. Like RS4 in last year of old A4 production to enhance sales of rest of range etc.
Best Jag did was make cheaper nasty versions instead, and that only de-valued the brand more, making people see "expensive Mondeo" rather than cheap BMW/Merc which is what the point was from the start.
S-Type R should ideally have more grunt now. Even Evo magazine says it's the best big saloon at the moment, until the new M5 hits the roads. That is high praise indeed, and could be invigorated more by a newer updated model featuring on the front of all the magazines. 450bhp would be easy with the supercharger already on, maybe even throw in the Ford GT engine, they like component sharing
Maybe make it a proper 6 speed paddley auto like the new DB9... would appeal to the people who are after an auto but like paddles too!? XKR, same as above //
Just a few of my opinions. They've already tempted us with some awesome cars over the last 6 years, starting with the admittedly internally made XK180...
In my opinion, if they want to compete with BMW and Mercedes, they need to do what they do, and have serious sporting models at the top of their lineup...
That Jaguar in the pic looks like it has the lights of the new Mustang, kind of all angled contrasting with the smooth sides. Not like I care, like they'll ever make it. Ford will chicken out and just release a fwd 2 litre diesel XJ!
Dave
When I saw the spy photo a while back (as some of you may recall), I mistook this thing for a disguised Mustang.
The question is not whether I was wrong, but how far off the marque I was.
I could tell immediately from the thumbnail that this was the new Jag everyone told me was hidden under that disguise. Excitement, however, quickly turned to disappointment. The nose? Excuse me, but it looks like it was taken from the '02 Ford Taurus belonging to the old lady next door.
Other angles look better, especially the profile, and I'm sure it's more impressive up close -- but still, it's uninspired, unimpressive, unworthy of the name Jaguar...
...which is not to say it can't be fixed, with a little tweaking. Perhaps the plan is to make the production version better-looking than the concept...
If you want an awesome, fresh design, hire Bertone.
If you want a car with styling cues from the 60s succesfully integrated into a modern design, get a new Mustang. At these prices, get 2 or 3.
If Ford drops Jaguar, and they have to build up from the bottom again, Swallow Sidecar style, it could be the best thing to happen to them in a very long time. Let's just hope they take a few cues from TVR.
Here's to small, independent, innovative companies.
troilus said:
If Ford drops Jaguar, and they have to build up from the bottom again, Swallow Sidecar style, it could be the best thing to happen to them in a very long time. Let's just hope they take a few cues from TVR.
Here's to small, independent, innovative companies.
Errrr.... how about Ford to drop Jag and TVR and Jag to merge with TVR power on the Brown's Lane site, with some proper Sportscar people in charge. Innovation plus heretage plus cutting edge design and better engineering and workmanship?
PS The thing at the top of this thread called a Jaguar? Well Ford know where they can stick their Blue Oval!!!
>> Edited by CiderwithCerbie on Monday 17th January 20:28
I'm not against new models and progress.
It's just that something is missing at the new XK that the old D-type / XK SS still had. That magical 'something' that no-one can describe accurately.
So I fooled around a bit with Photoshop.
My conclusion: lose the horrid side-vents, swap the Ford rear lights for some decent ones, get rid of that old-mans colour in favour of a TVR-ish green, fit slightly smaller wheels. Exaggerate some of the curves.
And still...
... no, THEN it would be quite acceptable as a Jag.
It's just that something is missing at the new XK that the old D-type / XK SS still had. That magical 'something' that no-one can describe accurately.
So I fooled around a bit with Photoshop.
My conclusion: lose the horrid side-vents, swap the Ford rear lights for some decent ones, get rid of that old-mans colour in favour of a TVR-ish green, fit slightly smaller wheels. Exaggerate some of the curves.
And still...
... no, THEN it would be quite acceptable as a Jag.
KK - agreed, that's exactly what it needs, and, hopefully, the real thing will get.
As for the rwd X-Type comment above - not feasible, not at a sensible cost. Don't know why an -R wasn't brought out, maybe because they knew it couldn't compete against the M3, while the S-Type was already a great steer...
The decisions were made on the basis of predicted volumes and profitability...that they clearly got them wrong is hindsight.
As for the rwd X-Type comment above - not feasible, not at a sensible cost. Don't know why an -R wasn't brought out, maybe because they knew it couldn't compete against the M3, while the S-Type was already a great steer...
The decisions were made on the basis of predicted volumes and profitability...that they clearly got them wrong is hindsight.
Yeah, they got them wrong because Ford decided they were not feasible or wouldn't sell in THEIR desired volumes.
Problem with that idea is that they are just trying to mass market what was a small volume brand.
Like Steven Coogan said in Top Gear a while back with the 575M GTC vs new Aston Vanquish S, the Vanquish wins because it's not perfect and has soul and character. The underdog.
A fundamentally flawed X-Type R would have won hearts... maybe not been a huge winner, but it would have been the one you want to win, even though it's not the best... I think Ford underestimate the selling potential of cars like that, well at least for Jaguar anyway... Aston Martin seems to be doing ok now!
Oh well, suppose when you go global with a brand like Jaguar, it's going to have to change from what it once was to something a bit more consumer friendly!
Dave
Problem with that idea is that they are just trying to mass market what was a small volume brand.
Like Steven Coogan said in Top Gear a while back with the 575M GTC vs new Aston Vanquish S, the Vanquish wins because it's not perfect and has soul and character. The underdog.
A fundamentally flawed X-Type R would have won hearts... maybe not been a huge winner, but it would have been the one you want to win, even though it's not the best... I think Ford underestimate the selling potential of cars like that, well at least for Jaguar anyway... Aston Martin seems to be doing ok now!
Oh well, suppose when you go global with a brand like Jaguar, it's going to have to change from what it once was to something a bit more consumer friendly!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
A fundamentally flawed X-Type R would have won hearts... maybe not been a huge winner, but it would have been the one you want to win, even though it's not the best... I think Ford underestimate the selling potential of cars like that, well at least for Jaguar anyway... Aston Martin seems to be doing ok now!
I disagree - the British may have a soft-spot for the underdog, but most Europeans and American's aren't so forgiving - they WILL go for the better car, and the USA is Jag's biggest market.
havoc said:
A fundamentally flawed X-Type R would have won hearts... maybe not been a huge winner, but it would have been the one you want to win, even though it's not the best... I think Ford underestimate the selling potential of cars like that, well at least for Jaguar anyway... Aston Martin seems to be doing ok now!
I disagree - the British may have a soft-spot for the underdog, but most Europeans and American's aren't so forgiving - they WILL go for the better car, and the USA is Jag's biggest market.
If market potential was the only goal, surely Jag would be making a Toyota Avensis clone. Or is that the next X-Type?
Ian A.
X-Type R was dropped for the simple fact that Jag could not make a sensible business case for the investments required to build another body version, ie. 3 door. I know because i was involved in the programme at that time.
All this talk of 'heart and soul' is i am afraid absolute garbage. We are talking about big businesses here people, not enthusiasts who tinker away at home building their life times' pride and joy.
THEY ARE IN THIS BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY, pure and simple, and why not?
And by the way, so are all the other illustrious names mentioned earlier.
All this talk of 'heart and soul' is i am afraid absolute garbage. We are talking about big businesses here people, not enthusiasts who tinker away at home building their life times' pride and joy.
THEY ARE IN THIS BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY, pure and simple, and why not?
And by the way, so are all the other illustrious names mentioned earlier.
pddmac said:
X-Type R was dropped for the simple fact that Jag could not make a sensible business case for the investments required to build another body version, ie. 3 door. I know because i was involved in the programme at that time.
All this talk of 'heart and soul' is i am afraid absolute garbage. We are talking about big businesses here people, not enthusiasts who tinker away at home building their life times' pride and joy.
THEY ARE IN THIS BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY, pure and simple, and why not?
And by the way, so are all the other illustrious names mentioned earlier.
Do you speak for Jaguar?, the tone sounds familiar, at least since they became "BIG BUSINESS" if you get my meaning. Not the best approach to pick up new customers.
Pride and passion in the workforce must have suffered with the takeover, and now almost died with the loss of vehicle assembly at Browns Lane. Well done Ford.
It's not bad..... perhaps good in fact... but there's no way that that's a Jaguar..... the ONLY thing I can see that IS Jaguar and that's the shut-line around the bottom of the door and the rear quarterlight shape... that's it.... everything else just isn't jaguar... in side profile it's a Volvo front end with a blown-up Cougar rear. I think there's a bit of Mustang Fastback in the rear haunches and definitely a sprinkle of Aston throughout...... what that car says to me is a genetic hotch-potch of many Ford-family design cues..... good design cues mind you. One thing I can tell you for sure... the makeup of that car certainly doesn't have any feline genes!
I want Jaguar to do well so badly but they seem to be rooted in a management structure that's working for them about as well as BL/BMC did for Triumph, Riley, Wolesley, Austin...... (the list goes on)
I want Jaguar to do well so badly but they seem to be rooted in a management structure that's working for them about as well as BL/BMC did for Triumph, Riley, Wolesley, Austin...... (the list goes on)
John Millar said:
Do you speak for Jaguar?, the tone sounds familiar, at least since they became "BIG BUSINESS" if you get my meaning. Not the best approach to pick up new customers.
Pride and passion in the workforce must have suffered with the takeover, and now almost died with the loss of vehicle assembly at Browns Lane. Well done Ford.
Please, wake up to the real world - EVERY car manufacturer from Lotus/TVR up is in it predominantly to make money...they are run by businessmen, who have to make hard, commercial decisions. The fact that these decisions are sometimes unpopular with petrolheads is not something they'll lose much sleep about.
"Not the best approach to pick up new customers" - WHAT??? The best approach, I would have thought, is to build something that will sell in large-enough numbers at the right price/cost equation, which is one of the primary goals of any of these large manufacturers...and Jag decided that the X-Type would be a better commercial proposition, GLOBALLY, than the F-Type would. That you disagree with it is immaterial, quite honestly.
Autocar reports that this concept is "80% of the production car". For once, I think the production car may be better looking than the concept. Normally the reverse is true. Jaguars don't need sparkly lights to get attention and the exhaust is truely hideous. The back end needs "all red" light clusters, preferably with round LEDs behind it and give it a couple of big round or oval pipes for the exhaust. Give it some more elegant headlights too (or at least lose the "black eyeliner"
Given that the production car is due to hit the streets in around 12mths, I would have thought it would make sense to show the real thing. Surely the final design has been signed off?
Autocar also indicated the front end design encompasses the forthcoming pedestrian legislation, hence the slightly bluff (for a sporting Jag) front end. Perhaps pedestrians should just remember the green cross code
As for the company, perhaps Jaguar could learn some lessons from Aston Martin. Dr Bez has done a superb job to turn AM around. Jaguar should adopt their superb new aluminium platform for all their models (the new XK already shares it with the XJ). Lower prodution numbers and try not to be a BMW/Mercedes competitor (in volume, anyway). I'd much prefer to see Jaguar producing beautiful niche products as opposed to churning out genetically modified Mondeos and Lincolns.
Here's what I want:
XJ - keep the underpinning but move the design forward whilst keeping the beauty and elegance of the old Series 3
S-Type - Use XJ underpinnings and wrap it in a four-door version of the R-Coupe concept.
R-Coupe - A true four seater coupe (based on the above)
XK - I like the new one as it is
F-Type - A lighter, more hardcore version of the XK (with XK180 styling). 2 seats only please.
X-Type - kill it.
All of the above could be produced using the one platform, albeit available in many wheelbase lengths.
Still, I don't have to make the sums add up, but I reckon Jaguar need to completely rethink their business plan.
Just my idle thoughts
>> Edited by Twin Turbo on Wednesday 19th January 10:38
Given that the production car is due to hit the streets in around 12mths, I would have thought it would make sense to show the real thing. Surely the final design has been signed off?
Autocar also indicated the front end design encompasses the forthcoming pedestrian legislation, hence the slightly bluff (for a sporting Jag) front end. Perhaps pedestrians should just remember the green cross code
As for the company, perhaps Jaguar could learn some lessons from Aston Martin. Dr Bez has done a superb job to turn AM around. Jaguar should adopt their superb new aluminium platform for all their models (the new XK already shares it with the XJ). Lower prodution numbers and try not to be a BMW/Mercedes competitor (in volume, anyway). I'd much prefer to see Jaguar producing beautiful niche products as opposed to churning out genetically modified Mondeos and Lincolns.
Here's what I want:
XJ - keep the underpinning but move the design forward whilst keeping the beauty and elegance of the old Series 3
S-Type - Use XJ underpinnings and wrap it in a four-door version of the R-Coupe concept.
R-Coupe - A true four seater coupe (based on the above)
XK - I like the new one as it is
F-Type - A lighter, more hardcore version of the XK (with XK180 styling). 2 seats only please.
X-Type - kill it.
All of the above could be produced using the one platform, albeit available in many wheelbase lengths.
Still, I don't have to make the sums add up, but I reckon Jaguar need to completely rethink their business plan.
Just my idle thoughts
>> Edited by Twin Turbo on Wednesday 19th January 10:38
havoc said:
That's a particularly ill thought-out reply, with absolutely no merit at all. Go back, think about it again, then try and say something sensible.
No, I won't. Your opinion on my reply is noted and ignored. My post stands.
Yes manufacturers have to make commercially viable products but when the company relies on a reputation of sporting heritige, it is important to protect that heritage.
Now if Jaguar's angle of attack is the luxury market along the XJ and S-Type models, then fine, they can make whatever they like and become a BMW clone. They've probably lost me as a customer anyway.
However if they wish to continue in the spirit of the D-Type and E-Type (as I would prefer them to), they have to be very careful not to dilute the brand.
It's obvious which market has the biggest capacity for profit.
Ian A.
IPAddis said:Have you ever worked in the car industry???
Now if Jaguar's angle of attack is the luxury market along the XJ and S-Type models, then fine, they can make whatever they like and become a BMW clone. They've probably lost me as a customer anyway.
However if they wish to continue in the spirit of the D-Type and E-Type (as I would prefer them to), they have to be very careful not to dilute the brand.
It's obvious which market has the biggest capacity for profit.
Ian A.
I do, and I can tell you that Jag will make a LOT more profit out of the S-Type and XJ than they will out of the XK. Not per unit, but overall, simply because the XK (and similarly any F-Type) are small-volume specialist cars.
You only recall the D- and E-Types from the past, because they were the "sexy" products, but I will bet any reasonable sum that Jaguar actually made the majority of it's money in that period off of the more mundane saloons they produced.
Jaguar has ALWAYS been a luxury car maker AS WELL as a sports car maker, there has never been a dilution of brand, except in your mind...those saloons you don't like mean the company keeps going and is able to make the coupes!!!
Now grow up!
Gassing Station | Jaguar | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff