F Type lemon - consumer rights act 2015?
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
This. A low volume, up market sports car is always going to be a problem for Jaguar because they won't invest in building it properly. They've always been the same and the current owners won't change that attitude.
Since 2002 I've had nothing but new German cars, VW, BMW, MB and a Porsche. No serious issues with any and no problems arising out of poor build quality, which this thread seems to be founded on.
I did have a Mercedes in the early 90s, bought used, that was a crock of s
t though. It took me until a year ago to risk another.
My current daily, a 530D, goes for its first service in January, 22 months old with 20K miles. It's not been near the dealer since collection and has been faultless.
When I bought the BMW I considered an XF but a little research exposed the numerous issues they'd had with brakes and suspension and general build issues so I decided against. I know some people have good ones but the problems seem to be much more widespread than other 'prestige' brands.
BMW are very good at keeping problems away from the public, and must spend a lot of money to do so. How many people know about the rear floor plan cracking on the E46 for example? But it was a very common issue that cost BMW over £2k per car to fix.Since 2002 I've had nothing but new German cars, VW, BMW, MB and a Porsche. No serious issues with any and no problems arising out of poor build quality, which this thread seems to be founded on.
I did have a Mercedes in the early 90s, bought used, that was a crock of s
t though. It took me until a year ago to risk another.My current daily, a 530D, goes for its first service in January, 22 months old with 20K miles. It's not been near the dealer since collection and has been faultless.
When I bought the BMW I considered an XF but a little research exposed the numerous issues they'd had with brakes and suspension and general build issues so I decided against. I know some people have good ones but the problems seem to be much more widespread than other 'prestige' brands.
Similarly, as soon as an early Jaguar V8 engine is mentioned people discuss a Nikasil problem but BMW (and Porsche, possibly others) had the same issue but it doesn't get anywhere near the same prominence.
As for paint, I don't think I could accept any new BMW based on the amount of orange peel in the paint on those I have looked at. I have sprayed a few cars myself with cheap equipment and never had such a poor finish. I don't know how it is acceptable to BMW or the car buyers, but each to their own.
I think they have a different approach: A customer reporting a problem with the car is an opportunity for the manufacturer. They can find out what is going wrong with particular models, and give the customer a stroke. While this does cost money to implement, it's a lot cheaper than trying to 'fix' reputational damage resulting from not dealing instantly with a customer concern.
Obviously, you can't keep everybody happy...
Obviously, you can't keep everybody happy...
ftypical said:
I think they have a different approach: A customer reporting a problem with the car is an opportunity for the manufacturer. They can find out what is going wrong with particular models, and give the customer a stroke. While this does cost money to implement, it's a lot cheaper than trying to 'fix' reputational damage resulting from not dealing instantly with a customer concern.
Obviously, you can't keep everybody happy...
You are right of course but there is also the issue of what is possible. There is a video flaoting about showing the F type being built - I cant remember whether its on this forum or the F type forum. Anyway, I watched that video and with a background running manufacturing facilities, I could see why quality would not be of the best. Particularly with UK labour ( as opposed to German or Jap)the answer to decent quality is high volumes and as much automation as is possible. The F type line is neither. Its far too dependant on conscientious labour. Yes you could build a good car that way in Korea but not in the UK.Obviously, you can't keep everybody happy...
That said its likely to be every bit as good a car as an Aston, if not better. And if you really want to see how bad "hand made" can be, buy a Morgan.
I think Toyota, Honda, and Nissan UK might take issue with your view that UK car workers cannot produce a quality product.
And, if we consider the high grade end of the market, Bently, Rolls Royce and Aston Martin may also have something to say.
Having been on factory tours for several UK manufacturers, the assembly line workers can only assemble what they are given, using the processes they've been told to use.
So production engineering and management are the doors at which to leave any blame for cr*p product.
And, if we consider the high grade end of the market, Bently, Rolls Royce and Aston Martin may also have something to say.
Having been on factory tours for several UK manufacturers, the assembly line workers can only assemble what they are given, using the processes they've been told to use.
So production engineering and management are the doors at which to leave any blame for cr*p product.
Most of the automation in the Assembly Hall revolves around getting components and sub-assemblies to individual cells, and offering up sub-assemblies to the chassis within each cell. People are then required to fasten them in place.
The F-type is a little low volume in that the delivery to cell mechanism is mostly people driving forklifts. For comparison, Toyota use computer controlled buggies.
Body in White is where the cells are automated. Staff there are generally service engineers for the robots.
Morgan do things differently.
The F-type is a little low volume in that the delivery to cell mechanism is mostly people driving forklifts. For comparison, Toyota use computer controlled buggies.
Body in White is where the cells are automated. Staff there are generally service engineers for the robots.
Morgan do things differently.
bordseye said:
You are right of course but there is also the issue of what is possible. There is a video flaoting about showing the F type being built - I cant remember whether its on this forum or the F type forum. Anyway, I watched that video and with a background running manufacturing facilities, I could see why quality would not be of the best. Particularly with UK labour ( as opposed to German or Jap)the answer to decent quality is high volumes and as much automation as is possible. The F type line is neither. Its far too dependant on conscientious labour. Yes you could build a good car that way in Korea but not in the UK.
That said its likely to be every bit as good a car as an Aston, if not better. And if you really want to see how bad "hand made" can be, buy a Morgan.
Look, to be blunt, I recently considered an F-Type but bought a Boxster GTS, manual with PCCB, instead because, good looking and good to drive as the F Type is, I thought that the Porsche was a better, more solidly constructed and more practical car at a much more sensible price. Three months down the line, I think that I made the right decision and now have no desire to own an F-Type. I discussed the options on here when I was considering them, and was fairly roundly criticised for saying that Jaguar finishes are not as hard wearing as those from Porsche. Porsche seats are built by Lear. Who builds Jaguar seats?That said its likely to be every bit as good a car as an Aston, if not better. And if you really want to see how bad "hand made" can be, buy a Morgan.
I stand by my views. Jags are nice cars, but they need to be looked after carefully because they are just not as well made and robust as the German competition. Neither frankly are they in the same class as Aston Martin as far as finishes are concerned, though I know Aston have had their paintwork issues. Even Porsche wouldn't claim to be perfect. Jags are less so, a simple fact, but they are still decent cars and I would be very surprised if they didn't step up to sort your problems out and leave you with a car in an acceptable condition. The unfortunate thing about the F is that contrary to Jaguar's traditional practice, which was value for money, which then made shortcomings in finishes acceptable, the car is, massively, overpriced. Just how overpriced it is can be judged by looking at list prices for the Boxster/Cayman or even the Ford Mustang, which in V8 form is no mean piece of kit.
Would you care to share with us how you got on?
I had a few problems with my 981 Cayman but none with my F-Type. The quality was better in the Porsche though. Jaguar generally does better than Porsche on customer surveys. I think in general, German cars are overrated and Jaguars underrated, I don't think there is much in it tbh. I've got a Porsche Macan GTS on order, I think the F-Pace will give it a good run for its money and if it wasn't for the Macan's ridiculously good residuals I may well have gone for the Jagaur. I do agree some of Jaguars recent pricing has been a bit ambitious, they got it very wrong on the F-Type convertible for sure.
Little Lofty said:
I think in general, German cars are overrated and Jaguars underrated
Yep and usually by people who've owned neither.I had a Porsche Boxster. It was a bag of crap! I've got an SL55, it's pretty poor build wise and not very reliable. I've also had two Jaguars,they were uber reliable and beautifully made. Not saying that will be a typical ownership experience, but I would be very careful about buying a Porsche again and despite that I still want to scratch that 911 itch!
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