2011 XFR - suspected dead engine

[Triple7]

So, as the end user having bought car as an 'approved used' who gets left holding the can?

[Piersman2]

ali_XFR said:

Woah didn't realise I'd sparked such debate. This weeks update is that the dealership and warranty co have been rifling through my car and found two print outs from a rolling road showing WHP of 466ish bhp and an estimate of flywheel BHP of 590ish bhp and are now convinced my engine has had a remap.
Except it hasn't. Not during my ownership.

Putting it on a rolling road does not invalidate the warranty. They are convinced the two print outs show a before and after bhp level and are evidence of it being remapped. I am absolutely apoplectic with rage. The dealership kindly waited til 4.55 to notify me of the warranty company's conclusion and I now have to wait til Monday morning before I can speak to someone. This is turning into an absolute nightmare.

Oooffff... those printouts will be the set the dealership keeps on standby in a drawer for when a car comes in with a borked engine - just gotta plant them in the vehicle when no one's looking!

So how come you hadn't found them before?

[WOO5IE]

8bit said:

There have been a couple of cases of lunched 5.0 S/C V8 engines in XKRs on jaguarforum.com which Jaguar themselves have attributed to incorrect spec of oil being used - I'm not totally clear on the details but could be oil-driven tensioners failing. The US Jaguar forum has one or two cases similar.

Not endemic by any means but I would make sure and use a Jaguar-approved oil if I had such a car, particularly if I still had original or approved-used warranty.

There is a long thread on this US forum

Search on Timing Chain/oil upgrade. This discusses timing chain wear on DI engines (direct injection)
It suggests that DI engines produce very small particles that get in the oil and this affects timing chains, not just Jag engines. Better oil filters and more regular oil changes .
It does get a big heated if you read through it all

[Busterbulldog]

I would be contacting the previous keeper myself to see if it was fettled.

[Shoegrip]

WOO5IE said:

There is a long thread on this US forum

Search on Timing Chain/oil upgrade. This discusses timing chain wear on DI engines (direct injection)
It suggests that DI engines produce very small particles that get in the oil and this affects timing chains, not just Jag engines. Better oil filters and more regular oil changes .
It does get a big heated if you read through it all

This sounds bks. Sorry WOO51E, not having a go at your post but you could put grinding paste into oil and it would take a long time to damage a chain.

In theory, a remapped engine being thrashed could shorten life but still sounds far fetched.

[philmots]

verynicechap said:

ali_XFR said:

Woah didn't realise I'd sparked such debate. This weeks update is that the dealership and warranty co have been rifling through my car and found two print outs from a rolling road showing WHP of 466ish bhp and an estimate of flywheel BHP of 590ish bhp and are now convinced my engine has had a remap.
Except it hasn't. Not during my ownership.

Putting it on a rolling road does not invalidate the warranty. They are convinced the two print outs show a before and after bhp level and are evidence of it being remapped. I am absolutely apoplectic with rage. The dealership kindly waited til 4.55 to notify me of the warranty company's conclusion and I now have to wait til Monday morning before I can speak to someone. This is turning into an absolute nightmare.

oh gawd no!
..Its a typical sort of output you'd expect on a DynoDynamics roller for a remapped XFR with exhaust, filters and pulley done. That is where they are coming from unfortunately.

You could try contacting Paul, see if he's willing to testify that he's not done any work to the car and give them an explanation of the graphs.

Paul's DD RR is renowned for being very tight/accurate, i was very surprised when I saw the print out of it making 593hp, that's a typical figure of what an XFR will make after a pulley and a remap. But most of them make that with around 600lbft too, iirc Ali's made 500lbft which is quite a lot shy of where a tuned one would be.

Surely it would be easy to tell if it's go a pulley fitted or not, and surely the diagnostics are clever enough to tell if it's got a map or not. You need this proof otherwise it's easy for them to just say 'it must have' and that's that.

Failing that, and it is tuned, then your supplying dealer will have some answering to do!

[a8hex]

Shoegrip said:

This sounds bks. Sorry WOO51E, not having a go at your post but you could put grinding paste into oil and it would take a long time to damage a chain.

In theory, a remapped engine being thrashed could shorten life but still sounds far fetched.

I would naively think that most tuning efforts on one of these wouldn't impact the timing chain too much, more increase stress on the bottom end. Only something which increased the redline would increase the stress on the timing gear.

If the dealer working on the car is claiming the car's been remapped and you didn't do it, then I'd be letting the supplying dealer that you are expecting a full refund on the car since they shouldn't be supplying you a car in that condition.

[anonymous-user]

a8hex said:

If the dealer working on the car is claiming the car's been remapped and you didn't do it, then I'd be letting the supplying dealer that you are expecting a full refund on the car since they shouldn't be supplying you a car in that condition.

This. If there is evidence that the car was remapped it show.dnt be hard to find out when, by whom and for whom. If the OP shows that it happened before he bought the AUC, then the problem goes back to his seller, surely?

I have assumed it is a jaguar AUC?

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 19th November 18:41

[Simpo Two]

ali_XFR said:

Woah didn't realise I'd sparked such debate. This weeks update is that the dealership and warranty co have been rifling through my car and found two print outs from a rolling road showing WHP of 466ish bhp and an estimate of flywheel BHP of 590ish bhp and are now convinced my engine has had a remap.
Except it hasn't. Not during my ownership.

You had paper printouts in your car and didn't know about it? Where were they hidden and why would anyone hide them? Seems fishy to me.

Do they have the car reg no on them or a date?

[Shoegrip]

Simpo Two said:

You had paper printouts in your car and didn't know about it? Where were they hidden and why would anyone hide them? Seems fishy to me.

Do they have the car reg no on them or a date?

So a car is in for engine trouble. What made them look for a rolling road printout in the car?

This is starting to smell like a week old cod.

[Triple7]

If it's an 'Approved used' and the poster didn't remap his car, it's Jaguar/Dealers problem.

May e print outs were stuffed in the with the service book, they would I'm sure be time/dated so easy to confirm if poster even owned car at the time.

Update!

[verynicechap]

Shoegrip said:

So a car is in for engine trouble. What made them look for a rolling road printout in the car?

This is starting to smell like a week old cod.

Also IMO ...don't publish your dyno runs on the net. unless the warranty / insurance providers are up to date with everything ...as soon as you do you've introduced potential claim issues.

[WOO5IE]

Shoegrip said:

This sounds bks. Sorry WOO51E, not having a go at your post but you could put grinding paste into oil and it would take a long time to damage a chain.

In theory, a remapped engine being thrashed could shorten life but still sounds far fetched.

I agree with you shoegrip. If you read the long post it does get a bit agitated with some guys getting hot under the collar.
They quote various docs about timing chain wear due to DI engines.

I would expect it be a lot more extensive it there was any truth in it.

It is American though

[jamieduff1981]

a8hex said:

Shoegrip said:

This sounds bks. Sorry WOO51E, not having a go at your post but you could put grinding paste into oil and it would take a long time to damage a chain.

In theory, a remapped engine being thrashed could shorten life but still sounds far fetched.

I would naively think that most tuning efforts on one of these wouldn't impact the timing chain too much, more increase stress on the bottom end. Only something which increased the redline would increase the stress on the timing gear.

If the dealer working on the car is claiming the car's been remapped and you didn't do it, then I'd be letting the supplying dealer that you are expecting a full refund on the car since they shouldn't be supplying you a car in that condition.

I don't think you're being naïve at all. I'm really struggling to think how a remap would be noticed by a timing chain at all. Increased pressure in the combustion chambers, yes. Increased stress on the piston crowns, connecting rods and crankshaft, yes. Making the camshafts harder to turn? No, I don't buy that at all.

But none of that is relevant if this alleged remap took place a) at all or b) before OP purchased the car from a Jaguar dealer

[Shoegrip]

If the engine produces more torque, the rate of change of relative speed could be greater if all the power/torque is used.

That could stretch a chain on theory but I doubt the amount of increase we are looking at here would make any difference.

None of this counts for anything though. If the warranty terms don't allow mods then that's the end of it. The Jaguar dealer however certainly has liability though in selling the thing in its current state.

My BMW dealer stripped all mods from the car I bought from them for this very same reason. Even though it cost them money to do so.

[jamieduff1981]

It's not really going to climb the revs any faster in 1st or 2nd gear as an XFR is traction limited anyway. By the time it's found decent grip in 3rd gear it'll rev out faster than it would have done previously in 3rd gear, but that's still slower than it could rev out in 1st and 2nd anyway.

I think the remap:timing chains link is tenuous at best!

[a8hex]

jamieduff1981 said:

I don't think you're being naïve at all. I'm really struggling to think how a remap would be noticed by a timing chain at all. Increased pressure in the combustion chambers, yes. Increased stress on the piston crowns, connecting rods and crankshaft, yes. Making the camshafts harder to turn? No, I don't buy that at all.

But none of that is relevant if this alleged remap took place a) at all or b) before OP purchased the car from a Jaguar dealer

"naively" because I know there a lot of people here who know a lot more than I do, I'm certainly no expert on modern engines, I've read up quite a lot about tuning XK engines (the classic straight six) and talked to a lot of people who do that for a living, enough to know I'm not an expert at those either .

[a8hex]

jamieduff1981 said:

It's not really going to climb the revs any faster in 1st or 2nd gear as an XFR is traction limited anyway. By the time it's found decent grip in 3rd gear it'll rev out faster than it would have done previously in 3rd gear, but that's still slower than it could rev out in 1st and 2nd anyway.

I think the remap:timing chains link is tenuous at best!

Does the standard mapping for these engines limit the torque output in first and second anyway? I'm sure LadyB8's Merc does, it seems to pickup it's heels in 3rd more than in the lower gears. It's a weird feeling when the car changes up and then seems to go harder. I've never really tried in my XKR since, as you say, it's traction limited. I'd assumed the Merc did it to ease the load on the gearbox or perhaps to limit how often the TC has to step in.

[GTIAlex]

[liner33]

jamieduff1981 said:

It's not really going to climb the revs any faster in 1st or 2nd gear as an XFR is traction limited anyway. By the time it's found decent grip in 3rd gear it'll rev out faster than it would have done previously in 3rd gear, but that's still slower than it could rev out in 1st and 2nd anyway.

I think the remap:timing chains link is tenuous at best!

Might not be traction limited on a dyno if it was strapped down hard enough , but thats besides the point , of course the remap will put extra stress on the timing chain just like the rest of the engine but as said that shouldn't be sufficient to cause a catastrophic failure.

But if the car has been remapped I would doubt Jag will stand buy it, I've heard of other manufacturers refusing a warranty claim on the basis that the car has been down the drag strip

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/248095-timing...