2011 XFR - suspected dead engine
Discussion
liner33 said:
of course the remap will put extra stress on the timing chain
I'm intrigued as to why, since there's going to be be very little moment of inertia on the cam shafts increasing their rate of accelerate isn't going to increase the loading on the chain compared with the forces needed to open the valves. That force isn't going to increase appreciably. Or does the re-mapping increase the red-line. I'm interested in what I'm missing here.a8hex said:
liner33 said:
of course the remap will put extra stress on the timing chain
I'm intrigued as to why, since there's going to be be very little moment of inertia on the cam shafts increasing their rate of accelerate isn't going to increase the loading on the chain compared with the forces needed to open the valves. That force isn't going to increase appreciably. Or does the re-mapping increase the red-line. I'm interested in what I'm missing here...But as said the end load imposed on the chain i.e cam and valves is obviously far far less that that imposed on the bottom end / drive train.
Without doing any maths on this ..its very unlikely that the chain couldn't cope with such a relatively minor increase if i can't it must be manufactured to a very small level of tolerance.
I'm well out of my depth here but my thinking is the cam chain drive is directly proportional to engine rpm not engine power or torque so a map at worst (for the cam chain) will make those revs a touch quicker where traction allows but the added power/torque won't affect the chain. Basically the same as accelerating down a hill which is not going to adversely affect the chain, I hope, it's my favorite thing 
Ah I think that's what a8hex said a couple of posts ago.
Ah I think that's what a8hex said a couple of posts ago.
Edited by Jaroon on Monday 21st November 21:49
A few points and questions.
The dyno printouts are from a day that I organised (I'm Ali's brother). They were in the glovebox as that's where he left them after the day. The ones from my ISF will probably be in my glovebox too. A dyno is only as accurate as the setup. The operator provided us with two graphs, one showing WHP and one showing a calculated flywheel figure. The calculation is a generic one and doesn't account for transmission losses based on each specific gearbox type and variant so it isn't accurate.
The car was purchased as an approved used vehicle from a main dealer. The only non factory parts are the backboxes and the filters, neither of which invalidate the warranty.
From what I've read the only ways to tune the 5.0 engine is either a pulley, which his car doesn't have or a remap which again his car doesn't have. If the car was mapped prior to his ownership then surely a quick scan of the ECU would prove this?
The dealer and the warranty company are acting like a
holes. Surely the onus is on them to prove without any reasonable doubt that the car is modified?
The dyno printouts are from a day that I organised (I'm Ali's brother). They were in the glovebox as that's where he left them after the day. The ones from my ISF will probably be in my glovebox too. A dyno is only as accurate as the setup. The operator provided us with two graphs, one showing WHP and one showing a calculated flywheel figure. The calculation is a generic one and doesn't account for transmission losses based on each specific gearbox type and variant so it isn't accurate.
The car was purchased as an approved used vehicle from a main dealer. The only non factory parts are the backboxes and the filters, neither of which invalidate the warranty.
From what I've read the only ways to tune the 5.0 engine is either a pulley, which his car doesn't have or a remap which again his car doesn't have. If the car was mapped prior to his ownership then surely a quick scan of the ECU would prove this?
The dealer and the warranty company are acting like a
holes. Surely the onus is on them to prove without any reasonable doubt that the car is modified? 'The dealer and the warranty company are acting like aholes. Surely the onus is on them to prove without any reasonable doubt that the car is modified? '
In an ideal world yes..it aint. Its more about what they can present as reasonable justification to show the car has been modified.
I take your point though, They could measure the pulley diameter and compare the ECU code.
I was told by the tuners that my ECU map would be invisible to any diagnostic equipment although Code is Code.. You can't change a map without altering it's 1's an 0's so it must be possible.
Where would they after that if they came back correct ...measure the Cam profiles, check the cylinder Compression... How much money would it cost them for that level of investigation.
Good luck with it!
In an ideal world yes..it aint. Its more about what they can present as reasonable justification to show the car has been modified.
I take your point though, They could measure the pulley diameter and compare the ECU code.
I was told by the tuners that my ECU map would be invisible to any diagnostic equipment although Code is Code.. You can't change a map without altering it's 1's an 0's so it must be possible.
Where would they after that if they came back correct ...measure the Cam profiles, check the cylinder Compression... How much money would it cost them for that level of investigation.
Good luck with it!
Got a phone call from Jaguar this afternoon- the warranty company sent the Map on the ECU to Jaguar who confirmed its the OEM map and the car hasn't been remapped. I believe they also contacted Paul at RS Tuning in Leeds who confirmed he hadn't ever worked on the car so the warranty co have given the dealership verbal authorisation to begin the repair. Don't know if that means a whole new engine but that will be clarified in the next few days. Only taken 4 weeks to get the green light. Very relieved that I'm not staring at a massive repair bill!
ali_XFR said:
Got a phone call from Jaguar this afternoon- the warranty company sent the Map on the ECU to Jaguar who confirmed its the OEM map and the car hasn't been remapped. I believe they also contacted Paul at RS Tuning in Leeds who confirmed he hadn't ever worked on the car so the warranty co have given the dealership verbal authorisation to begin the repair. Don't know if that means a whole new engine but that will be clarified in the next few days. Only taken 4 weeks to get the green light. Very relieved that I'm not staring at a massive repair bill!
A good outcome. Would be good to know what the cause was. A one-off hopefully.
philmots said:
Excellent stuff.
Now it's being sorted, if you look at it from their point of view i suppose you can see why they'd try everything to get out of paying up. They're an insurance company after all!
Yeah, but why did the dealer seem to be so reluctant too, I can understand the warranty company being a pain-ita. Now it's being sorted, if you look at it from their point of view i suppose you can see why they'd try everything to get out of paying up. They're an insurance company after all!
a8hex said:
Yeah, but why did the dealer seem to be so reluctant too, I can understand the warranty company being a pain-ita.
Dealer can get a heck of a lot more labour from a naive paying customer than the official warranty co who (I assume) will have predefined labour times for each job. If they'd declined the claim I'd be looking at a bill of at least £2k just for taking the engine out and stripping it down! I don't have a problem with the warranty co being thorough. I do have a problem with the contents of my glovebox being rifled through and being accused of lying to them when they asked me if I'd remapped my car. Still hopefully I'll have it back soon (probably a good few weeks from now knowing my luck) and I can forget about all the hassle.
ali_XFR said:
......
They are convinced the two print outs show a before and after bhp level and are evidence of it being remapped.......
If the dealership cannot distinguish a difference between rolling road readouts (or not, in this case...) I'm not sure I'd be that trusting to let them loose on a repair. They are convinced the two print outs show a before and after bhp level and are evidence of it being remapped.......
Just a thought...
V88Dicky said:
I'd like to think there's a checklist for the tools required and procedure that gets ticked off as they go....
I'm sure there is but all it takes is a distraction and a critical part is not connected properly. The production people are doing it all the time but a grease monkey could easily misinterpret or just overlook something.
I know I would.
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