Jag XFR knocking noise from engine, very worrying
Discussion
Orcadian said:
Let's go right back to your first post on this - you said that it occurred just 20 miles after picking it up - suspicious in itself. You also said that the engine management light came on with the restricted performance message. If the RP message was transient then it may not have thrown a code but the CEL would have stored a code - did the JMD check that?
Also there is no sensor on the Supercharger which could cause lights to come up - unless it was clapping its nuts off and caused a knock sensor to report. I would ask for a breakdown of what they checked, how they checked it and in what sequence. I would still press VERY hard for an expert tech man from JLR to visit before they proceed.
Ian
Would a run bearing that caused low oil pressure bring up a restricted performance indication?Also there is no sensor on the Supercharger which could cause lights to come up - unless it was clapping its nuts off and caused a knock sensor to report. I would ask for a breakdown of what they checked, how they checked it and in what sequence. I would still press VERY hard for an expert tech man from JLR to visit before they proceed.
Ian
Low oil pressure caused by a run bearing should bring on the CEL light, which in turn should invoke the restricted performance message and I have felt all along that the problem must be engine related, even if the S/C was initially at fault. BUT we are all armchair experts in this case and I have no faith in JMD's. Our man is unfortunately in the hands of folk who admit nothing and blame everyone, I just hope he gets a good outcome. At that age and mileage this unfortunate situation very rarely happens without human intervention - they are very reliable units.
Ian
Ian
Evening all.
I went to go visit the car today, unannounced, and this is what i heard.
https://youtu.be/aVGH42EpsSA
The Supercharger has been disconnected, but can anyone else hear that rattle, like it could be the timing chain?
I was told that the sound is still coming from the SC, even though it has been disconnected as air is forced into it as the revs go up. But it's still the knocking noise from before and it seems just as loud.
I'm not trained, but when i heard the knocking noise, it did seem to come from up to. I think i could feel the vibrations on the top too.
At the moment Jaguar UK say that they are not contributing because of the age of the car (2009) and that i don't have more of their cars.
You would have thought that if they wanted to keep customers, they would go out their way.
The JMD says that it will be £4K to replace, they are willing to drop this to £3400.
So i will be speaking to Jaguar UK tomorrow, to see what can be done.
I went to go visit the car today, unannounced, and this is what i heard.
https://youtu.be/aVGH42EpsSA
The Supercharger has been disconnected, but can anyone else hear that rattle, like it could be the timing chain?
I was told that the sound is still coming from the SC, even though it has been disconnected as air is forced into it as the revs go up. But it's still the knocking noise from before and it seems just as loud.
I'm not trained, but when i heard the knocking noise, it did seem to come from up to. I think i could feel the vibrations on the top too.
At the moment Jaguar UK say that they are not contributing because of the age of the car (2009) and that i don't have more of their cars.
You would have thought that if they wanted to keep customers, they would go out their way.
The JMD says that it will be £4K to replace, they are willing to drop this to £3400.
So i will be speaking to Jaguar UK tomorrow, to see what can be done.
My 2p from a quick scan of this post and one look at the video...
If that was bottom end I wouldn't expect it to just be making a noise. I'd at least expect it to be down a cyclinder, smoking, shaking its nuts off or genrally giving some other sign of death, especially after revving it whilst trying to diagnose the problem.
If that was bottom end I wouldn't expect it to just be making a noise. I'd at least expect it to be down a cyclinder, smoking, shaking its nuts off or genrally giving some other sign of death, especially after revving it whilst trying to diagnose the problem.
s p a c e m a n said:
My 2p from a quick scan of this post and one look at the video...
If that was bottom end I wouldn't expect it to just be making a noise. I'd at least expect it to be down a cyclinder, smoking, shaking its nuts off or genrally giving some other sign of death, especially after revving it whilst trying to diagnose the problem.
I cannot see why a run bearing should cause smoke or loss a cylinder or even shaking. In fact it would pretty much like the first video.If that was bottom end I wouldn't expect it to just be making a noise. I'd at least expect it to be down a cyclinder, smoking, shaking its nuts off or genrally giving some other sign of death, especially after revving it whilst trying to diagnose the problem.
Seems like this might be an engine issue.
I sent a question to a Supercharger specialist and they have said the following:
Question: One of the things I’ve been told, is that the main dealer disconnect the belt from the SC, and it was still making a noise with the engine running. I have limited knowledge of the internals of this SC, but I find this hard to believe.
Answer: Usually running the engine with the blower disconnected is a clear way to identify whether the noise was coming from the blower. If no noise, blower was the problem. If noise remains, it’s coming from somewhere other than the blower.
Question: They mentioned that the isolating springs could have worn?
Answer: There is a plastic coupler with springs at the base of the snout which is a common failure.
N.B I was told by the JMD that this was not the issue.
Question: I would have thought that with the belt disconnected from the pulley, there would be no movement from the SC at all.
Answer: No, the supercharger vanes are ‘windmilled’ by the passing air when the engine runs with the belt disconnected - if they didn’t turn no air would get to the engine. Even though turning, the unit will generally make no noise without the belt connected because it is not under load.
I've sent an email over to Jaguar UK to see what they say about a 2nd opinion.
I sent a question to a Supercharger specialist and they have said the following:
Question: One of the things I’ve been told, is that the main dealer disconnect the belt from the SC, and it was still making a noise with the engine running. I have limited knowledge of the internals of this SC, but I find this hard to believe.
Answer: Usually running the engine with the blower disconnected is a clear way to identify whether the noise was coming from the blower. If no noise, blower was the problem. If noise remains, it’s coming from somewhere other than the blower.
Question: They mentioned that the isolating springs could have worn?
Answer: There is a plastic coupler with springs at the base of the snout which is a common failure.
N.B I was told by the JMD that this was not the issue.
Question: I would have thought that with the belt disconnected from the pulley, there would be no movement from the SC at all.
Answer: No, the supercharger vanes are ‘windmilled’ by the passing air when the engine runs with the belt disconnected - if they didn’t turn no air would get to the engine. Even though turning, the unit will generally make no noise without the belt connected because it is not under load.
I've sent an email over to Jaguar UK to see what they say about a 2nd opinion.
Edited by XFRFred on Thursday 5th January 15:10
XFRFred said:
Seems like this might be an engine issue.
I sent a question to a Supercharger specialist and they have said the following:
Question: I would have thought that with the belt disconnected from the pulley, there would be no movement from the SC at all.
Answer: No, the supercharger vanes are ‘windmilled’ by the passing air when the engine runs with the belt disconnected - if they didn’t turn no air would get to the engine. Even though turning, the unit will generally make no noise without the belt connected because it is not under load.
I've sent an email over to Jaguar UK to see what they say about a 2nd opinion.
Thought these had an idle bypass so no air goes via charger at idle???I sent a question to a Supercharger specialist and they have said the following:
Question: I would have thought that with the belt disconnected from the pulley, there would be no movement from the SC at all.
Answer: No, the supercharger vanes are ‘windmilled’ by the passing air when the engine runs with the belt disconnected - if they didn’t turn no air would get to the engine. Even though turning, the unit will generally make no noise without the belt connected because it is not under load.
I've sent an email over to Jaguar UK to see what they say about a 2nd opinion.
crezzer said:
Well if thats with the SC disconnected its not sounding any where near as bad as it was before, perhaps it is the SC at fault.
It is certainly different to my ears, but the engine won't have the thrust behind a throttle blip with no forced induction. That, and the difficulty of reproducibly recording such a sound, suggests that the sound we hear on later clips is probably the same one. At this stage in the game the JMD ought to have measured oil pressure and perhaps sampled the oil looking for metal shards to see whether a big-end has gone. It should no longer be guesswork.crezzer said:
Well if thats with the SC disconnected its not sounding any where near as bad as it was before, perhaps it is the SC at fault.
I assume the inlet vacuum would cause the blower to spin up to a degree without the belt driving it and in that case make less noise ..if the noise was caused by a fault with the charger itself?XFR FRED,
Did drop you an email from your contact page the other day but did not hear back, no worries.
Google JTB00349v2, it's the current bulletin for the supercharger noise.
Have done a few now, your first vid sounded louder than I've heard one, the second not so, the JMD have told you its not the isolator, however when you were at the dealer did they rotate the S/C by hand and rock the pulley back n forth? (engine not running obviously), it would be utterly obvious if there was an issue with that part & and or charger, if the bulletin is followed then a complete S/C unit is only required if there is further damage to the rotors/bearings/housing, this will only be apparent once the top cover has been removed (that will need to happen anyway to replace either the isolator or charger).
With regard to the engine 'ingesting' parts of the charger if this were to happen then valve/bore/piston damage would be highly probable and I very much doubt the car would be running free of a misfire or far worse noise.
If you search youtube for rattling 5.0 SC noise there's quite a few vids, the design is very similar on the cadillac CT9, you may still be lucky and only require the isolator kit, still a few hundred for the kit and nigh on same time to fit as a whole unit.
The only surprising thing if it is just the S/C is that no noise was detected or reported at the service, they normally start off quite and progressively get worse, and clearly out of warranty they would have been keen to sell it to you as extra job/bits!
Pics below of the isolator kit (old one removed) you can clearly see the shaft wear from the hardened spring which breaks eventually, effectively the kit is a whole new snout.
Regards
Dan (Elite Jags)
Did drop you an email from your contact page the other day but did not hear back, no worries.
Google JTB00349v2, it's the current bulletin for the supercharger noise.
Have done a few now, your first vid sounded louder than I've heard one, the second not so, the JMD have told you its not the isolator, however when you were at the dealer did they rotate the S/C by hand and rock the pulley back n forth? (engine not running obviously), it would be utterly obvious if there was an issue with that part & and or charger, if the bulletin is followed then a complete S/C unit is only required if there is further damage to the rotors/bearings/housing, this will only be apparent once the top cover has been removed (that will need to happen anyway to replace either the isolator or charger).
With regard to the engine 'ingesting' parts of the charger if this were to happen then valve/bore/piston damage would be highly probable and I very much doubt the car would be running free of a misfire or far worse noise.
If you search youtube for rattling 5.0 SC noise there's quite a few vids, the design is very similar on the cadillac CT9, you may still be lucky and only require the isolator kit, still a few hundred for the kit and nigh on same time to fit as a whole unit.
The only surprising thing if it is just the S/C is that no noise was detected or reported at the service, they normally start off quite and progressively get worse, and clearly out of warranty they would have been keen to sell it to you as extra job/bits!
Pics below of the isolator kit (old one removed) you can clearly see the shaft wear from the hardened spring which breaks eventually, effectively the kit is a whole new snout.
Regards
Dan (Elite Jags)
DTYPE said:
XFR FRED,
Did drop you an email from your contact page the other day but did not hear back, no worries.
Google JTB00349v2, it's the current bulletin for the supercharger noise.
Have done a few now, your first vid sounded louder than I've heard one, the second not so, the JMD have told you its not the isolator, however when you were at the dealer did they rotate the S/C by hand and rock the pulley back n forth? (engine not running obviously), it would be utterly obvious if there was an issue with that part & and or charger, if the bulletin is followed then a complete S/C unit is only required if there is further damage to the rotors/bearings/housing, this will only be apparent once the top cover has been removed (that will need to happen anyway to replace either the isolator or charger).
With regard to the engine 'ingesting' parts of the charger if this were to happen then valve/bore/piston damage would be highly probable and I very much doubt the car would be running free of a misfire or far worse noise.
If you search youtube for rattling 5.0 SC noise there's quite a few vids, the design is very similar on the cadillac CT9, you may still be lucky and only require the isolator kit, still a few hundred for the kit and nigh on same time to fit as a whole unit.
The only surprising thing if it is just the S/C is that no noise was detected or reported at the service, they normally start off quite and progressively get worse, and clearly out of warranty they would have been keen to sell it to you as extra job/bits!
Pics below of the isolator kit (old one removed) you can clearly see the shaft wear from the hardened spring which breaks eventually, effectively the kit is a whole new snout.
Regards
Dan (Elite Jags)
Having looked at your website, Dan, I wish I lived in Derbyshire! You sound just like a man who knows his Jags. I may only have a humble 2.2D X Type but it's mine and I love it.Did drop you an email from your contact page the other day but did not hear back, no worries.
Google JTB00349v2, it's the current bulletin for the supercharger noise.
Have done a few now, your first vid sounded louder than I've heard one, the second not so, the JMD have told you its not the isolator, however when you were at the dealer did they rotate the S/C by hand and rock the pulley back n forth? (engine not running obviously), it would be utterly obvious if there was an issue with that part & and or charger, if the bulletin is followed then a complete S/C unit is only required if there is further damage to the rotors/bearings/housing, this will only be apparent once the top cover has been removed (that will need to happen anyway to replace either the isolator or charger).
With regard to the engine 'ingesting' parts of the charger if this were to happen then valve/bore/piston damage would be highly probable and I very much doubt the car would be running free of a misfire or far worse noise.
If you search youtube for rattling 5.0 SC noise there's quite a few vids, the design is very similar on the cadillac CT9, you may still be lucky and only require the isolator kit, still a few hundred for the kit and nigh on same time to fit as a whole unit.
The only surprising thing if it is just the S/C is that no noise was detected or reported at the service, they normally start off quite and progressively get worse, and clearly out of warranty they would have been keen to sell it to you as extra job/bits!
Pics below of the isolator kit (old one removed) you can clearly see the shaft wear from the hardened spring which breaks eventually, effectively the kit is a whole new snout.
Regards
Dan (Elite Jags)
DTYPE said:
XFR FRED,
Did drop you an email from your contact page the other day but did not hear back, no worries.
Google JTB00349v2, it's the current bulletin for the supercharger noise.
Have done a few now, your first vid sounded louder than I've heard one, the second not so, the JMD have told you its not the isolator, however when you were at the dealer did they rotate the S/C by hand and rock the pulley back n forth? (engine not running obviously), it would be utterly obvious if there was an issue with that part & and or charger, if the bulletin is followed then a complete S/C unit is only required if there is further damage to the rotors/bearings/housing, this will only be apparent once the top cover has been removed (that will need to happen anyway to replace either the isolator or charger).
With regard to the engine 'ingesting' parts of the charger if this were to happen then valve/bore/piston damage would be highly probable and I very much doubt the car would be running free of a misfire or far worse noise.
If you search youtube for rattling 5.0 SC noise there's quite a few vids, the design is very similar on the cadillac CT9, you may still be lucky and only require the isolator kit, still a few hundred for the kit and nigh on same time to fit as a whole unit.
The only surprising thing if it is just the S/C is that no noise was detected or reported at the service, they normally start off quite and progressively get worse, and clearly out of warranty they would have been keen to sell it to you as extra job/bits!
Pics below of the isolator kit (old one removed) you can clearly see the shaft wear from the hardened spring which breaks eventually, effectively the kit is a whole new snout.
Regards
Dan (Elite Jags)
Hi Dtype, just seen your email, sorry, it still goes to an old email address but it wasn't ignored. Did drop you an email from your contact page the other day but did not hear back, no worries.
Google JTB00349v2, it's the current bulletin for the supercharger noise.
Have done a few now, your first vid sounded louder than I've heard one, the second not so, the JMD have told you its not the isolator, however when you were at the dealer did they rotate the S/C by hand and rock the pulley back n forth? (engine not running obviously), it would be utterly obvious if there was an issue with that part & and or charger, if the bulletin is followed then a complete S/C unit is only required if there is further damage to the rotors/bearings/housing, this will only be apparent once the top cover has been removed (that will need to happen anyway to replace either the isolator or charger).
With regard to the engine 'ingesting' parts of the charger if this were to happen then valve/bore/piston damage would be highly probable and I very much doubt the car would be running free of a misfire or far worse noise.
If you search youtube for rattling 5.0 SC noise there's quite a few vids, the design is very similar on the cadillac CT9, you may still be lucky and only require the isolator kit, still a few hundred for the kit and nigh on same time to fit as a whole unit.
The only surprising thing if it is just the S/C is that no noise was detected or reported at the service, they normally start off quite and progressively get worse, and clearly out of warranty they would have been keen to sell it to you as extra job/bits!
Pics below of the isolator kit (old one removed) you can clearly see the shaft wear from the hardened spring which breaks eventually, effectively the kit is a whole new snout.
Regards
Dan (Elite Jags)
Will message you back in a little bit.
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