xj8 with nikasil problems new engine or new liners?
Discussion
Had same problem, but first check engine not flooded as this is common problem that causes no compression, take out fuel pump fuse turn over until almost firing replace fuse may start? If you are moving short distances ie from garage to drive this can also cause same flooding symptoms, basically don't move short distances ~ common fault. If no good comfirm Nikasil linings no good. New Engine Jaguar £6500 or I went to other place £4500 with 5 year guarentee, service every 6 months. Hope this helps.
I have had the car taken to a garage, they have done a blow-by test and the results are not good, it looks like I wall have to go down the replacement engine route, unless the cylinders can be relined. I have looked on the web and there are some companies that will replace Nikasil linings but they advertise their service for motorbikes, and they are in the states. Has anyone had any experience of relined engines?
I would recommend you contact David Marks at www.davidmarksgarages.co.uk
He is well known in Jaguar circles, has a good reputation among Jaguar Enthusiast Club members & could certainly respond to your question.
He is well known in Jaguar circles, has a good reputation among Jaguar Enthusiast Club members & could certainly respond to your question.
I contacted Jaguar consumer services and spoke to Craig Anderson there, who asked me to take the car down to Ryebrook Jaguar in Warrington, they have had a look at it and couldnt get the engine started, they have spoken to Craig Anderson, but all they will offer is 25% of the new engine cost with me paying for the labour and the other 75%. Which when you add vat comes to something like £5400. (way too much).
It looks like my only affordable alternative is to get the engine taken apart, the block sent off for relining, and then everything reassembled again.
Or to find an affordable reconditioned unit.
do you know of anyone who does the relining, or a reliable engine supplier
thanks
nigel
It looks like my only affordable alternative is to get the engine taken apart, the block sent off for relining, and then everything reassembled again.
Or to find an affordable reconditioned unit.
do you know of anyone who does the relining, or a reliable engine supplier
thanks
nigel
Sorry to hear of your engine dilemma Nigel. There was an article about this in the April 2006 edition of Jaguar World magazine, which I bought this morning and currently have on my knee.
The article states that, once damaged, bore repair is impractical as the engine has to be completely stripped right down to the bare block, and very few companies have the equipment for re-application of a new Nikasil coating. The labour costs themselves would be prohibitively expensive, assuming you could even find someone with the specialist knowledge and equipment to re-apply a new Nikasil coating.
Sadly it's not like re-boring a standard iron block/steel cylinder and fitting new oversize pistons as was done in the halcyon days or yore by engine re-builders.
All the article says about steel liners is that Jaguar does this with it's reconditioned engines, and that it will certainly become common in the future. So not much help there, then.
What you do next depends very much on the value of the car and it's overall condition including how much useable life is remaining in the other expensive major components such as the gearbox and final drive units etc.
If the repair comes to roughly more than, say 70% of the cars value, you have to ask yourself is it worth repairing the engine at such huge cost, only for the gearbox to maybe fail a year later and land you with another huge bill.
You could try asking an experienced engine re-builder their opinion, and if they can do anything, although avoid like the plague those companies that only seem to fit cheap recon scrapyard-reclaimed & repainted engines to old Fords and Vauxhalls. Look for a quality engine builder that spends their lives soleley rebuilding engines, and ask their opinion.
The other alternative is to sell it quickly, put some fresh, thick oil in, and put some oil down the bores to boost compression on cold starts, and get rid of it fast.
Of course you'll have to declare the fault to any prospective buyer, and they'll either run away or offer you a very low price, but there's no easy 'quick fix' to this problem sadly.
One point I'd like to clear up now. I've seen it stated a few times that failure to start when cold on repeated attempts is due to the ECU locking into it's 'cold start' mode and overfuelling the engine, causing flooding and non-starting.
I saw one post that said that this over-fuelling causes loss of compression and hence non-starting!
Loss of compression is a major mechanical fault caused by the piston rings not sealing the bores due to excessive clearance. I've never heard it said anywhere else that flooding the engine with fuel causes loss of compression!
What actually happens is that the fuel sloshes down the bores and washes off any oil on the bore surface, causing excessive bore wear in the long term, NOT an immediate loss of compression!
You may be interested to know that this could also be related to the Nikasil problem in the following manner:
Worn bores (either Nikasil or any type of cylinder bore) were diagnosed in the old days by pouring a small amount of oil down the spark plug holes and doing a compression test. If the reading was higher than a 'dry bore' compression test, then the bores and piston rings were almost certainly worn.
With a worn Nikasil engine the compression loss is greatest when cold, before everything has chance to expand and fill the gaps. It ahs been known for totally shot Nikasil engines to spin round freely like jet turbines on the starter when cold due to a total lack of compression.
Oil would then be poured down the bores to seal the gaps, and the engine fired up and run at a fast speed to heat it up, and cause the pistons and rings to heat up, expand, and start to seal the gaps, giving enough compression to start a hot engine with no problems.
This used to be a standard desperate 'nurse it along' procedure for BMW owners also afflicted with the Nikasil issue on their engines.
It may be that on some Jag V8's with the first signs of Nikasil problems, that there is a residual coating of oil on the bore which is thick enough to seal any gaps and allow the engine to start from cold.
If the engine is then switched off shortly after, whilst still cold, and then re-started, the ECU, as others state here, does over-fuel the engine.
What may actually then happen is that this excess fuel washes any oil off the bores and then the compression drops enough to add to the starting difficulties already being caused by the over-fuelling.
I recently bought my first ever Jaguar last weekend (1995 X300 Daimler Double Six V12), after a long line of BMW's, and I currently still have my E34 540i with the V8.
I read up in great detail on the BMW Nikasil issue before I bought my 540i, and I made sure that it had had a new engine fitted after the period when BMW made all replacement V8 engine blocks of the alternative Alusil material, which is immune to the Nikasil sulphur bore wear problem due to being a completely different manufacturing procedure.
Sadly Nigel, you have a big problem with no easy fix, and whichever route you take is going to hurt very much in the wallet, as the Nikasil V8 Jags are of such an age where the engine repair costs can easily equal the car's value.
You could look at it from this point of view though. It's still a huge amount of car for the money, because of savage depreciation on all big cars, so it was exceptional value for money in the first place.
If you have a main dealer fit a new engine, you'll at least know that it's a new steel-linered block with the latest timing chain tensioners as well, and will have a Jaguar guarantee for the work done, as well as their goodwill payment towards the overall cost.
Plus, if you ever sell the car, it's a major selling point to advertise to prospective buyers that you have receipts for a new Jaguar main-dealer supplied and fitted engine. I know from my BMW experience that those cars with new Alusil blocks commanded a higher price on the used car market and were in greater demand as well, so you could recoup a small proportion of the repair costs if you ever sell the car.
I only bought my old BMW 540i because it had a new Alusil engine block fitted at the main dealer under warranty by the previous owner. I'd looked at Jag V8's and would have only considered an early V8 if it had had a new steel-linered engine block fitted with the latest timing chain tensioners as well.
In your case I'd be inclined to swallow hard, bite the bullet, and get the engine replaced. Feast on bread and water for a year, but at least you can be sitting in what I consider the most beautiful and graceful modern executive car shape ever made, knowing it's now fine in the engine department as well as looking drop-dead gorgeous!
I really wish you the best of luck in this matter
Alex
The article states that, once damaged, bore repair is impractical as the engine has to be completely stripped right down to the bare block, and very few companies have the equipment for re-application of a new Nikasil coating. The labour costs themselves would be prohibitively expensive, assuming you could even find someone with the specialist knowledge and equipment to re-apply a new Nikasil coating.
Sadly it's not like re-boring a standard iron block/steel cylinder and fitting new oversize pistons as was done in the halcyon days or yore by engine re-builders.
All the article says about steel liners is that Jaguar does this with it's reconditioned engines, and that it will certainly become common in the future. So not much help there, then.
What you do next depends very much on the value of the car and it's overall condition including how much useable life is remaining in the other expensive major components such as the gearbox and final drive units etc.
If the repair comes to roughly more than, say 70% of the cars value, you have to ask yourself is it worth repairing the engine at such huge cost, only for the gearbox to maybe fail a year later and land you with another huge bill.
You could try asking an experienced engine re-builder their opinion, and if they can do anything, although avoid like the plague those companies that only seem to fit cheap recon scrapyard-reclaimed & repainted engines to old Fords and Vauxhalls. Look for a quality engine builder that spends their lives soleley rebuilding engines, and ask their opinion.
The other alternative is to sell it quickly, put some fresh, thick oil in, and put some oil down the bores to boost compression on cold starts, and get rid of it fast.
Of course you'll have to declare the fault to any prospective buyer, and they'll either run away or offer you a very low price, but there's no easy 'quick fix' to this problem sadly.
One point I'd like to clear up now. I've seen it stated a few times that failure to start when cold on repeated attempts is due to the ECU locking into it's 'cold start' mode and overfuelling the engine, causing flooding and non-starting.
I saw one post that said that this over-fuelling causes loss of compression and hence non-starting!
Loss of compression is a major mechanical fault caused by the piston rings not sealing the bores due to excessive clearance. I've never heard it said anywhere else that flooding the engine with fuel causes loss of compression!
What actually happens is that the fuel sloshes down the bores and washes off any oil on the bore surface, causing excessive bore wear in the long term, NOT an immediate loss of compression!
You may be interested to know that this could also be related to the Nikasil problem in the following manner:
Worn bores (either Nikasil or any type of cylinder bore) were diagnosed in the old days by pouring a small amount of oil down the spark plug holes and doing a compression test. If the reading was higher than a 'dry bore' compression test, then the bores and piston rings were almost certainly worn.
With a worn Nikasil engine the compression loss is greatest when cold, before everything has chance to expand and fill the gaps. It ahs been known for totally shot Nikasil engines to spin round freely like jet turbines on the starter when cold due to a total lack of compression.
Oil would then be poured down the bores to seal the gaps, and the engine fired up and run at a fast speed to heat it up, and cause the pistons and rings to heat up, expand, and start to seal the gaps, giving enough compression to start a hot engine with no problems.
This used to be a standard desperate 'nurse it along' procedure for BMW owners also afflicted with the Nikasil issue on their engines.
It may be that on some Jag V8's with the first signs of Nikasil problems, that there is a residual coating of oil on the bore which is thick enough to seal any gaps and allow the engine to start from cold.
If the engine is then switched off shortly after, whilst still cold, and then re-started, the ECU, as others state here, does over-fuel the engine.
What may actually then happen is that this excess fuel washes any oil off the bores and then the compression drops enough to add to the starting difficulties already being caused by the over-fuelling.
I recently bought my first ever Jaguar last weekend (1995 X300 Daimler Double Six V12), after a long line of BMW's, and I currently still have my E34 540i with the V8.
I read up in great detail on the BMW Nikasil issue before I bought my 540i, and I made sure that it had had a new engine fitted after the period when BMW made all replacement V8 engine blocks of the alternative Alusil material, which is immune to the Nikasil sulphur bore wear problem due to being a completely different manufacturing procedure.
Sadly Nigel, you have a big problem with no easy fix, and whichever route you take is going to hurt very much in the wallet, as the Nikasil V8 Jags are of such an age where the engine repair costs can easily equal the car's value.
You could look at it from this point of view though. It's still a huge amount of car for the money, because of savage depreciation on all big cars, so it was exceptional value for money in the first place.
If you have a main dealer fit a new engine, you'll at least know that it's a new steel-linered block with the latest timing chain tensioners as well, and will have a Jaguar guarantee for the work done, as well as their goodwill payment towards the overall cost.
Plus, if you ever sell the car, it's a major selling point to advertise to prospective buyers that you have receipts for a new Jaguar main-dealer supplied and fitted engine. I know from my BMW experience that those cars with new Alusil blocks commanded a higher price on the used car market and were in greater demand as well, so you could recoup a small proportion of the repair costs if you ever sell the car.
I only bought my old BMW 540i because it had a new Alusil engine block fitted at the main dealer under warranty by the previous owner. I'd looked at Jag V8's and would have only considered an early V8 if it had had a new steel-linered engine block fitted with the latest timing chain tensioners as well.
In your case I'd be inclined to swallow hard, bite the bullet, and get the engine replaced. Feast on bread and water for a year, but at least you can be sitting in what I consider the most beautiful and graceful modern executive car shape ever made, knowing it's now fine in the engine department as well as looking drop-dead gorgeous!
I really wish you the best of luck in this matter
Alex
thanks for that Alex, you summed up our situation perfectly, we are curremtly getting prices for replacement overhauled engines, from anyone who can get us a price. and trying to evaluate the warranty verses milage verses costs on offer. it looks like we will make our final decision after easter, but although you have made the advantages of a jaguar replacement unit clear, there is no way that our budget will stretch to their prices, weather its 25% discount or not. will keep you posted on the outcome.
thanks again
Nigel
thanks again
Nigel
Point taken about budgetary constraints. Have you considered the possibility of finding a complete engine from an accident-damaged vehicle, preferably one that's only had rear or side impact damage and left the engine bay intact?
Perhaps a bit of a 'messy' option but maybe worth looking into, especially if it's a 2001 model year or later vehicle which had the steel linered engine?
If yours is the 4 litre V8 you have a choice of vehicles to aquire a donor engine from-XJ, XK coupe, or S-Type I believe.
Best of luck
Alex
Perhaps a bit of a 'messy' option but maybe worth looking into, especially if it's a 2001 model year or later vehicle which had the steel linered engine?
If yours is the 4 litre V8 you have a choice of vehicles to aquire a donor engine from-XJ, XK coupe, or S-Type I believe.
Best of luck
Alex
Currently there are (that I know of), three companies that can do the work you mention.
The first is Jaguar themselves but they only supply *new* engines, reconditioning and warranty work is farmed out
The second is an "unnamed" company that provides warranty rebuilds for Jaguar - all reconditioning and repairs goes through this same place. They are the only company licensed by Jaguar to do the work. All of the garages claiming to do the work simply buy a reconditioned engine through Jaguar which basically comes from these people.
The third company is Wolfdirect Racing in Essex, they can rebuild and upgrade the engines to customer requirements.
Plenty of people around doing top-end rebuilds and upgrades - that is not the same thing though, the torque and sequence information for the bottom end is information that very, very few people are privy to.
The first is Jaguar themselves but they only supply *new* engines, reconditioning and warranty work is farmed out
The second is an "unnamed" company that provides warranty rebuilds for Jaguar - all reconditioning and repairs goes through this same place. They are the only company licensed by Jaguar to do the work. All of the garages claiming to do the work simply buy a reconditioned engine through Jaguar which basically comes from these people.
The third company is Wolfdirect Racing in Essex, they can rebuild and upgrade the engines to customer requirements.
Plenty of people around doing top-end rebuilds and upgrades - that is not the same thing though, the torque and sequence information for the bottom end is information that very, very few people are privy to.
Hi,
Would this be of any help? It's certainly a cheaper option to buy this and whip the engine out of it.....just thought.
www.dhales.co.uk/cgi-bin/osa/ViewPage.cgi?templateName=item_form.htx&itemNumber=578474
Regards,
Mike.
Would this be of any help? It's certainly a cheaper option to buy this and whip the engine out of it.....just thought.
www.dhales.co.uk/cgi-bin/osa/ViewPage.cgi?templateName=item_form.htx&itemNumber=578474
Regards,
Mike.
thanks for the advice guys, have currently got an indipendant jaguar specialist looking into a replacement engine, he will get back to me after easter, have asked my local mechanic for a price to strip engine down and send block off for relining,(but I dont think I will take this option, there seems too many pitfalls with this method, and not a huge saving over the replacement engine option). I have discounted the new engine from jaguar, the bank manager/purse will not stretch to that, and like has been mentioned in this thread before, the car has still done 135k so I might have a new engine, but it doesnt mean that the running gear isnt going to cause additional costs in the future.
Yes, there is one possible pitfall over stripping the engine and sending it off to be re-lined. Chances are with that mileage on the engine, whoever strips it may well either discover or suggest that all the bearings will need renewing as well, and maybe even a crank regrind.
Having re-lined the block you'll need new piston rings and almost certainly new pistons as well, as someone is going to suggest that as you've gone to the trouble of removing and stripping the engine, you might as well renew the major components whilst the engine is dissassembled.
If your budget prevents this and will only stretch to a block re-line, then you are faced with the fact that that you've still spent a large sum of money for an engine that has had to be rebuilt with old components, which themselves may well fail in later life, leading to another engine strip-down in the future.
I don't envy you your situation one bit, and can only suggest that if the repair quotes you get are not satisfactory, that you look for an engine out of a newish accident-damaged car, and get friendly with the vehicle dismantlers and let them know to put you first on then list if an engine becomes available, preferably from as late a model as possible.
Trouble with stripping down the V8 is that it's not a simple job, as various tools have to be used when refitting & aligning all the camshafts and timing chains etc. All it takes is someone who isn't sure of the pitfalls and correct procedures, and your rebuilt engine may not run as Jaguar intended it to.
Sorry to sound like the harbinger of doom, but these are not simple engines that any old mechanic can strip down. The labour costs alone will be significant as much has to be dismantled, labelled & stored for re-assembly.
You may well also be advised that the timing chains & tensioners need replacing as well, whilst the engine is dismantled, as early V8's did have tensioner problems, and some have been known to fail and destroy the engine-not what you'd want on a rebuilt unit!
I can't speak for you, but in your situation I might consider buying a cheap old runabout for a couple of hundred quid to get you to work, and then lay the Jag up and try and get hold of a late model V8 engine from an accident damaged car and fit that instead. On many crash-damaged vehicles the engine can still be tested running in the donor vehicle, depending on the damage to the chassis.
Best of luck
Alex
Having re-lined the block you'll need new piston rings and almost certainly new pistons as well, as someone is going to suggest that as you've gone to the trouble of removing and stripping the engine, you might as well renew the major components whilst the engine is dissassembled.
If your budget prevents this and will only stretch to a block re-line, then you are faced with the fact that that you've still spent a large sum of money for an engine that has had to be rebuilt with old components, which themselves may well fail in later life, leading to another engine strip-down in the future.
I don't envy you your situation one bit, and can only suggest that if the repair quotes you get are not satisfactory, that you look for an engine out of a newish accident-damaged car, and get friendly with the vehicle dismantlers and let them know to put you first on then list if an engine becomes available, preferably from as late a model as possible.
Trouble with stripping down the V8 is that it's not a simple job, as various tools have to be used when refitting & aligning all the camshafts and timing chains etc. All it takes is someone who isn't sure of the pitfalls and correct procedures, and your rebuilt engine may not run as Jaguar intended it to.
Sorry to sound like the harbinger of doom, but these are not simple engines that any old mechanic can strip down. The labour costs alone will be significant as much has to be dismantled, labelled & stored for re-assembly.
You may well also be advised that the timing chains & tensioners need replacing as well, whilst the engine is dismantled, as early V8's did have tensioner problems, and some have been known to fail and destroy the engine-not what you'd want on a rebuilt unit!
I can't speak for you, but in your situation I might consider buying a cheap old runabout for a couple of hundred quid to get you to work, and then lay the Jag up and try and get hold of a late model V8 engine from an accident damaged car and fit that instead. On many crash-damaged vehicles the engine can still be tested running in the donor vehicle, depending on the damage to the chassis.
Best of luck
Alex
Changing the pistons rings is as vital as replacing the liners - the rings pick up metal from the liners (the whole cause of the problem in the first place) so leaving the original rings in there is bordering on insanity.
If you do want to give up on the car please let me know - I am always on the lookout
If you do want to give up on the car please let me know - I am always on the lookout
I have had a quote from Stephen Heywood in Littleborough to fit a replacement engine, its done 70k miles and comes with a 6 months parts warranty. Having investigated the relining/rebore option I think that this will be the most beneficial solution, both financially and to give me peace of mind to know that we will be getting what we want at the end of it. I am looking forwards to getting my car on the road and putting it through its paces with the new engine, cant wait. with luck all should be ready the end of next week.......look out northwest
Yes, that does sound like the best option. Do you know what year the replacement engine is? Should be nicely run-in already with that mileage on it.
With all the engines in whatever cars I've had, I've always tried to follow a routine where once I've started the engine, I won't switch it off again until it's warmed up fully, the temp gauge is in the middle, and I know the thermostat has fully opened and everything is circulating.
Only then will I switch an engine off. Yes, it uses more fuel this way, but at least I know the oil's circulated properly and most of the cold start combustion gasses have burnt off.
Best of luck and no doubt your big cat will be purring sweetly again very soon
Alex
With all the engines in whatever cars I've had, I've always tried to follow a routine where once I've started the engine, I won't switch it off again until it's warmed up fully, the temp gauge is in the middle, and I know the thermostat has fully opened and everything is circulating.
Only then will I switch an engine off. Yes, it uses more fuel this way, but at least I know the oil's circulated properly and most of the cold start combustion gasses have burnt off.
Best of luck and no doubt your big cat will be purring sweetly again very soon
Alex
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