Golf Mk5 ED30 or Mk6 GTi - Impartial advice please

[p1tse]

does the mk6 gti have the same engine unit and power as the mk5 gti?
i drove the mk5 gti and was really disappointed with it that it's wearing a gti badge. rather than hot hatch i would say it's luke warm. (don't mean offence to any mk5 gti owners, however i do think they are a cracking car for the average public)

in comparison i've driven a mk7 gti dsg and was what i would expect from a hot hatch.

knowing the Ed30 is stronger and once with a few minor mods even stronger, I would say it would be the mk5 ed30 for me.

[ManOpener]

The Mk6 is EA888, chain cam and a different engine entirely. The "210" in the 6 feels about as hot as the ED30 in the Mk5 to me. Basically the same engine as the Mk7 I think.

[va1o]

Crackie said:

Thread resurrection.......

I've been trying to persuade my wife to change her 3.2TT(MK1)for a MK6GTI or ED30/Pirelli. It appears that the MK6 engine makes way more power than VW's stock claims, more than a stock ED30/Pirelli based upon Superchips' info. Has anyone any experience of this ?

I was biassed towards the ED30 but based upon the fact a MK6 is lighter and has much fitter looking dyno graphs I'm going to favour the MK6.

TIA

As much as I love my Mk5 GTI, if I had the choice to upgrade to the ED30 or Mk6 I'd definitely go with the latter 100%. You could easily remap it to ED30 power levels, but you could never modernise a ED30 to make it have the same newness and other improvements as the Mk6 does.

[cheddar]

Crackie said:

Thread resurrection.......

I've been trying to persuade my wife to change her 3.2TT(MK1)for a MK6GTI or ED30/Pirelli. It appears that the MK6 engine makes way more power than VW's stock claims, more than a stock ED30/Pirelli based upon Superchips' info. Has anyone any experience of this ?

I was biassed towards the ED30 but based upon the fact a MK6 is lighter and has much fitter looking dyno graphs I'm going to favour the MK6.

TIA

The ED30 also makes more power than VW claimed, often over 250bhp, depending on who's dyno you figures you want to quote.

[Patch1875]

Few timing chain tensioner failures appearing on the mk6.

Still love mine though!

[ManOpener]

cheddar said:

Crackie said:

Thread resurrection.......

I've been trying to persuade my wife to change her 3.2TT(MK1)for a MK6GTI or ED30/Pirelli. It appears that the MK6 engine makes way more power than VW's stock claims, more than a stock ED30/Pirelli based upon Superchips' info. Has anyone any experience of this ?

I was biassed towards the ED30 but based upon the fact a MK6 is lighter and has much fitter looking dyno graphs I'm going to favour the MK6.

TIA

The ED30 also makes more power than VW claimed, often over 250bhp, depending on who's dyno you figures you want to quote.

That's true of all the 2.0TFSI engines, both EA113 and EA888, I've seen dyno'd. Most 200bhp EA113s dyno around 220bhp and I've seen standard EA888s pushing 240-250 without any modifications, and that's on dynos that are commonly regarded as heartbreakers in some cases. I think it was Evo who had their Mk6 dyno higher than their Megane 250, and their Scirocco R put out almost the same as the Focus RS during the group test a few years ago.

I'd be very surprised if my 185PS 2.0 TFSI was producing less than 200.

[si_xsi]

I recently test drove a 61 plate mk6 GTI dsg and it id not feel much quicker than my manual 08 plate Mk 5 gti, perhaps a little more pull lower down the rev range, if anything it felt a bit wheezy nearer the top end compared to mine. The interior has moved on in a positive way, but I personally missed the indigo blue dials and instruments.

I'd love an ed30 or Mk6, both good cars.

[Crackie]

Thanks for all the replies...

ManOpener said:

The Mk6 is EA888, chain cam and a different engine entirely. The "210" in the 6 feels about as hot as the ED30 in the Mk5 to me. Basically the same engine as the Mk7 I think.

Good to know they feel similar because their stock power to weights should very similar based upon.

ED30 http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/VWGolfGTIEditio...

MK6 http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/GolfMk6GTi%20St...

The EA888 pulls from lower revs and has a usefully wider powerband; the weight difference is small but these measurements point to the MK6 being every bit as quick as an ED30. Probably more flexible in gear too.

Some very interesting info about the GTI/ED30/S3/LeonFR/Cupra power outputs here. The 2.0TFsi engines all appear to make their rated outputs but extremely few other engines do.

http://rototest-research.eu/popup/performancegraph...

Edited by Crackie on Monday 21st April 02:03

[SMB]

Crackie said:

Good to know they feel similar because their stock power to weights should very similar based upon.

ED30 http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/VWGolfGTIEditio...

MK6 http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/GolfMk6GTi%20St...

The EA888 pulls from lower revs and has a usefully wider powerband; the weight difference is small but these measurements to the MK6 being every bit as quick as an ED30. Probably more flexible in gear too.

Some very interesting info about the GTI/ED30/S3/LeonFR/Cupra power outputs here. The 2.0TFsi engines all appear to make their rated outputs but extremely few other engines do.

http://rototest-research.eu/popup/performancegraph...

Don't confuse wheel hp vs engine hp, wheel hp measures are less due to transmission losses, a rolling road estimates these and those assumptions can lead to one rr being optimistic on power vs another.

So a scirocco r using the ea113 engine achieves its 266 hp at the wheels so engine output is probably nearer 275-280. An early mk5 gti using ea113 makes 180+ at the wheels so is probably very close to 197 hp from the engine. Both are ea113. One over one just on the money, so there is no sweeping statement you can make that says one engine is better than the other but the trend with turbo cars is to have them achieve slightly more than their rated output as far as vw are concerned.

Don't believe all the hype of a standard ea888 210 car achieving 240 in real life. And the mk7 has a different variation with variable valve timing so a long way from being the same as the mk6..

[Crackie]

SMB said:

Don't confuse wheel hp vs engine hp, wheel hp measures are less due to transmission losses, a rolling road estimates these and those assumptions can lead to one rr being optimistic on power vs another.

So a scirocco r using the ea113 engine achieves its 266 hp at the wheels so engine output is probably nearer 275-280. An early mk5 gti using ea113 makes 180+ at the wheels so is probably very close to 197 hp from the engine. Both are ea113. One over one just on the money, so there is no sweeping statement you can make that says one engine is better than the other but the trend with turbo cars is to have them achieve slightly more than their rated output as far as vw are concerned.

Don't believe all the hype of a standard ea888 210 car achieving 240 in real life. And the mk7 has a different variation with variable valve timing so a long way from being the same as the mk6..

I'm not sure why you thought I was confusing wheel and engine power; none of my links make any reference to wheel power . My first two links show Superchips' flywheel dyno measurements from a MK6 and an ED30. The final link shows flywheel power from an ED30 on hub dyno i.e. with no tyre slip losses.

My understanding is that the ed30, GTI pirelli, cupra r, scirroco r, golf r, cupra and s3 all use the same EA113 engine and ECU but the S3, golf R and Cupra R all have an uprated factory intercooler. This fmic can be fitted into all others.
The engines in the above are all EA113s, they use bigger K04 turbos, different injectors, a relocated dump valve and also have a different compression ratio to the EA113 185hp/197hp TFSI engines, which use the smaller K03 turbo. Not sure if there are any differences on the EA113 engine used in the ED35.

Its not a case of believing hype, I was hoping to find some more information/evidence about stock EA888 power outputs. Superchips suggest the EA888s make way more than stock and
EVO magazine 'only' measured 229bhp when they put a MK6 on a rolling road. http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2469...

The info I've found so far suggests ED30 ( EA113 BYD enginecode using K04 turbo ) produces about 240ish flywheel bhp from the factory.
The EA188 MK6 GTI has chain driven cams, an IHI turbo rather than a K0 and produces approx 225bhp stock at the fly. I don't know the specific EA188 engine code for the GTI, I've seen CCZA and CCZB mentioned. Power at the wheels seems to be fairly consistent at ~195 so the drivetrain loss conversion factor is 13.5% which seems sensible for FWD on most dynos.

Edited by Crackie on Friday 18th April 18:29

[ManOpener]

I think there's some difference in wrist pin sizes between versions of the K04 turbo EA113 too, but that might be me confusing it with the K03 version.

[SMB]

Crackie said:

I'm not sure why you thought I was confusing wheel and engine power; none of my links make any reference to wheel power . My first two links show Superchips' flywheel dyno measurements a MK6 and an ED30. The final link shows flywheel power from an ED30 on hub dyno i.e. with no tyre slip losses.

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 17th April 13:45

perhaps not clear, but my point was that even with the tyres excluded, with the final link, there are transmission losses (turning effort of the gears etc), they are not flywheel ratings. So those transmission losses vs quoted numbers by vw would vary.

[Crackie]

SMB said:

Crackie said:

I'm not sure why you thought I was confusing wheel and engine power; none of my links make any reference to wheel power . My first two links show Superchips' flywheel dyno measurements a MK6 and an ED30. The final link shows flywheel power from an ED30 on hub dyno i.e. with no tyre slip losses.

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 17th April 13:45

perhaps not clear, but my point was that even with the tyres excluded, with the final link, there are transmission losses (turning effort of the gears etc), they are not flywheel ratings. So those transmission losses vs quoted numbers by vw would vary.

Agreed that a rolling road can only make an educated guess at what's happening back at the flywheel/crank but I'm going to assume that Superchips used the same rolling road, used the same gear for each car, applied the transmission loss and that ambient conditions were close too. I can't see a reason why it would be in a tuner's , like Superchips, interest to 'overstate/hype' an engine's stock figures; it would make any gains they achieve via their tune appear less impressive.

Anyway I'm getting too bogged down in tedious specs, the ED30 has slightly better peak power to weight and the MK6 has a usefully wider power band. I now need to get my good lady out to drive the pair; I think I'd be happy with either tbh.

Edited by Crackie on Monday 21st April 02:06

[AJB88]

ManOpener said:

I think there's some difference in wrist pin sizes between versions of the K04 turbo EA113 too, but that might be me confusing it with the K03 version.

The 2.0TFSI K04 lump has had many revisions

The latest and last is the CDL lump as found in my 2010 SEAT Leon Cupra R (Also comes in S3 and MK6 Golf R) its 265ps as standard in the LCR, The same lump comes in the Edition 35 but is de-tuned

[Msportman]

Do you plan to do any track work in a MK6 GTI?

You may wish to consider this on a MK6 GTI....it can be a by bye engine issue.....oil starvation.

There is a cure but an expensive one:
http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/oil_protection_sys...

The Ed30 is a far smarter buy.....a few nice one's on here at the mo.

I've owned a couple of MK5 GTI's and Ed30's and a MK6....nice interior. The MK6 maps well but not as well as an Edition 30 which is a much stronger unit....conrods, internals etc.

[Crackie]

Msportman said:

Do you plan to do any track work in a MK6 GTI?

You may wish to consider this on a MK6 GTI....it can be a by bye engine issue.....oil starvation.

There is a cure but an expensive one:
http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/oil_protection_sys...

The Ed30 is a far smarter buy.....a few nice one's on here at the mo.

I've owned a couple of MK5 GTI's and Ed30's and a MK6....nice interior. The MK6 maps well but not as well as an Edition 30 which is a much stronger unit....conrods, internals etc.

Thanks for the info about oil starvation; not heard about that. The car isn't for me, its for my wife; our son is too big for the back of her current 3.2TT DSG. I do drive her car often hence the interest but I already have a mapped 335i.

The car will be kept stock but I have seen some videos showing how quick mapped ED30s are

[kazman]

I have often considered remapping my manual ed30, but the research suggests you have to budget an additional £1000 on top of the remap for an uprated clutch and flywheel. DSG seems the Better bet with this in mind (or accept that a circa £500 remap will actually cost about £1500).

[AJB88]

kazman said:

I have often considered remapping my manual ed30, but the research suggests you have to budget an additional £1000 on top of the remap for an uprated clutch and flywheel. DSG seems the Better bet with this in mind (or accept that a circa £500 remap will actually cost about £1500).

Stage1 map you will be fine.

[va1o]

I've been out and about in my Mk5 GTI quite a bit this weekend and it's kind of reinforced what I said earlier. Yes a few years ago it was the best hot hatchback to have but I can't help but feel its just a little baggy and slightly past its time now when compared to the new equivalent. Still an excellent and very talented car but really wouldn't buy one over a Mk6 if you've got the extra money. A totally mint and unmolested Ed30 requiring no tidying up work wouldn't come cheap either.

Definitely go for the DSG either way though, such an awesome gearbox

[ManOpener]

It probably is a little baggy, in terms of suspension at least. Mine certainly is, as I discovered with a 500 mile jaunt through the best driving roads in Wales. It could really do with a full refresh to be honest- shocks, springs, bushes and an anti-lift kit. Might start with the ALK and go from there.