Mk4 Golf - comfortable springs/dampers?

[911p]

I'm looking to renew the springs and dampers on my Mk4 Golf (2003 1.4) and was wondering if anybody could recommend any aftermarket kits which retain the comfort but reduce the body roll of the standard setup. The ones on the car are well past their best at 11 years old.

I don't want the car lowered too much as I'd like to retain its usability. I think pretty much all the kits available for the car are listed here.

I'm currently swaying towards just getting new OEM spec Sachs springs/dampers all round which can be had for £250. Any other recommendations?

Cheers

[skyrocket13]

When I did this to my 1m Leon Tdi, I fitted Bilstein B4 dampers. I used the original springs with these.

I also fitted new top mounts, anti-roll bar bushes, Cupra wishbone bushes and a Eibach rear anti-roll bar.

[911p]

How was the ride of yours affected after those mods? Surprisingly the Bilstein B4s are £15/set cheaper than Sachs OEM spec dampers. Any thoughts on the quality of them?

Not sure if it would still be better to go with the Sachs since you know they'll be matched to the standard springs.

[skyrocket13]

Hi, I fitted the Bilstein shock absorbers at about 87k, the car has now done over 140k, they've been fine. All the original shock absorbers were wrecked, no resistance on them at all. The Bilstein's are supposedly 10-15% stiffer than standard.

My car being a TDI is heavier, from what I read before, they are supposedly under-damped. The springs, I'm not so sure on, I know GSF or Eurocarparts are selling Sachs on Ebay. I think my car doesn't have the, 'sports' springs which would be better!

I remember the dampers made a lot of difference to the handling, because mine were shot, I think good tyres make a big difference too!

cheers

[911p]

Great, thanks for that

Think I'm going to go for Bilstein B4s and standard Sachs springs. Car should feel much nicer with those on and a geo done.

I'd love to get a thicker anti roll bar on the rear to kerb some of the understeer, but they're pretty expensive and I'm trying to keep costs down!

[scherzkeks]

911p said:

I'm looking to renew the springs and dampers on my Mk4 Golf (2003 1.4) and was wondering if anybody could recommend any aftermarket kits which retain the comfort but reduce the body roll of the standard setup. The ones on the car are well past their best at 11 years old.

I don't want the car lowered too much as I'd like to retain its usability. I think pretty much all the kits available for the car are listed here.

I'm currently swaying towards just getting new OEM spec Sachs springs/dampers all round which can be had for £250. Any other recommendations?

Cheers

Stock springs and Bilstein HD dampers. Anything that lowers the car beyond a standard stock sport spring is going to compromise handling, usually resulting in bump steer, wandering over ruts, and odd tire wear.

[Ranger 6]

skyrocket13 said:

Bilstein B4 dampers

These - if any aftermarket springs I'd suggest a Pro-Kit from Eibach.

[911p]

Thanks for all of the input everyone

How hard is it to do a DIY spring and damper change on a Mk4? Any guides around?

It's about £230 in labour at a decent garage - almost the same as the parts themselves. Add in a geo and you're well past the £500 mark!

[ManOpener]

scherzkeks said:

Anything that lowers the car beyond a standard stock sport spring is going to compromise handling, usually resulting in bump steer, wandering over ruts, and odd tire wear.

Utter codswallop. When taken to an absolute extreme, sure, but there are so many other contributing factors that you simply cannot make such an absurd generalisation.

For a DIY change you'll need spring compressors. There's an excellent guide for the Mk4 here - http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/strut-and-shock-...

Edited by ManOpener on Tuesday 15th April 14:05

[scherzkeks]

ManOpener said:

Utter codswallop. When taken to an absolute extreme, sure, but there are so many other contributing factors that you simply cannot make such an absurd generalisation.

For a DIY change you'll need spring compressors. There's an excellent guide for the Mk4 here - http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/strut-and-shock-...

Edited by ManOpener on Tuesday 15th April 14:05

VAG/Audi re-engineered the front suspension to correct the roll center on the R32 and Audi TT MK1, which were both only slightly lower than a stock MK4 GTI with sport springs.

It is very difficult to compensate for control arms that have been pushed outside of their operating range. Lowering beyond a stock sport-spring ride height will have your control arms sagging, and no off-the-shelf spring and shock kit is going to fully compensate for that. Take a visit to Shine engineering (experts on MK4 setups) and you will find the same information.

[ManOpener]

scherzkeks said:

It is very difficult to compensate for control arms that have been pushed outside of their operating range.

Yes it is; however the majority of reputable adjustable and non-adjustable spring/shock kits don't push the control arms outside of their operating range.

Shine are (were, as they went out of business a while back AFAIK) certainly well regarded but they're hardly the only experts in the area. Are all those teams in the VW Racing cup and various other racing leagues who've run aftermarket suspension with a ~35-65mm drop on standard control arms under exactly the kind of high load conditions that Shine (apparently, as I can find no mention of them setting an arbitrary "don't lower below x" point) claimed lowering decreased performance under doing it wrong, then? Have the likes of KW who have been developing high performance and racing suspension for decades got it wrong?

[scherzkeks]

ManOpener said:

Yes it is; however the majority of reputable adjustable and non-adjustable spring/shock kits don't push the control arms outside of their operating range.

Yes they do. An Eibach pro kit is lower than stock sport, which means too low, unless you plan on buying new spindles to raise the front roll center. Stock sport springs on the anniversary models were the lowest the suspension could be set according to the engineering release, hence why the R and TT variants used modded contact points and new hardware. Of course you can certainly drive the car with low springs, it just won't handle for st.

[Ranger 6]

You are right in that lowering a MkIV too much will ruin the handling, but... let's be realistic here.

Changes to the handling are incremental as the car is lowered. The Pro-Kit is barely lower than a stock GTi. Do you really think the OP is going to notice any detriment to his 1.4? No, he's going to notice the massive improvement from the new dampers and the firmer springs will give a better feeling over the old standard trampoline springs fitted to the MkIV.

So don't piss on his bonfire with all this pedantic and unnecessary detail, even if it is 'technically' correct, answer his question and give him a decent suggestion as to which springs and dampers would improve the stock 1.4.

[scherzkeks]

Ranger 6 said:

You are right in that lowering a MkIV too much will ruin the handling, but... let's be realistic here.

Changes to the handling are incremental as the car is lowered. The Pro-Kit is barely lower than a stock GTi. Do you really think the OP is going to notice any detriment to his 1.4? No, he's going to notice the massive improvement from the new dampers and the firmer springs will give a better feeling over the old standard trampoline springs fitted to the MkIV.

So don't piss on his bonfire with all this pedantic and unnecessary detail, even if it is 'technically' correct, answer his question and give him a decent suggestion as to which springs and dampers would improve the stock 1.4.

Pro Kit springs are softer than stock sport. And yes, the Pro Kit causes detrimental handling effects, bump steer being the most obvious.

Pedantic and unnecessary detail? I'm sorry if some in the face-tweet gen. don't want to hear it, but the engineering is what it is.

[Ranger 6]

scherzkeks said:

...the engineering is what it is.

and your recommendation is......???

[ManOpener]

scherzkeks said:

ManOpener said:

Yes it is; however the majority of reputable adjustable and non-adjustable spring/shock kits don't push the control arms outside of their operating range.

Yes they do. An Eibach pro kit is lower than stock sport, which means too low, unless you plan on buying new spindles to raise the front roll center. Stock sport springs on the anniversary models were the lowest the suspension could be set according to the engineering release, hence why the R and TT variants used modded contact points and new hardware. Of course you can certainly drive the car with low springs, it just won't handle for st.

So, by association you're saying a car on KW Clubsports and top mounts, but running standard control arms, will "compromise handling". On what basis? An apparent engineering release I can find no reference to or record of, your own personal assertions and the apparent claims of a long-deceased tuning company. Whilst I'm sure that you're a perfectly reputable source of information, I'm personally more inclined to trust the judgement of people who build racing suspension for a living on what might be the limitations of standard control arms and suspension components.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the main reason for adjusting the contact points and utilising different hardware for the TT and R/4MO down to the fact they were AWD? And wasn't the Mk1 TT wider track than the Golf anyway?


As for the question of what to run, my personal inclination would be for Bilstein B4s and 35mm H&R or 30mm Eibach Pro springs. Or a second hand set of KW V1 or V2s if you could pick them up.

[scherzkeks]

ManOpener said:

So, by association you're saying a car on KW Clubsports and top mounts, but running standard control arms, will "compromise handling". On what basis? An apparent engineering release I can find no reference to or record of, your own personal assertions and the apparent claims of a long-deceased tuning company. Whilst I'm sure that you're a perfectly reputable source of information, I'm personally more inclined to trust the judgement of people who build racing suspension for a living on what might be the limitations of standard control arms and suspension components.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the main reason for adjusting the contact points and utilising different hardware for the TT and R/4MO down to the fact they were AWD? And wasn't the Mk1 TT wider track than the Golf anyway?


As for the question of what to run, my personal inclination would be for Bilstein B4s and 35mm H&R or 30mm Eibach Pro springs. Or a second hand set of KW V1 or V2s if you could pick them up.

1. SRSVW.com. Plenty to read on the site about the adverse effects of lowering springs. Also, Dick Shine was a regular on VW Vortex some years ago. There is a reason their real street kit actually raises the front end over stock -- the stock geo is already at its limits from the factory on the bread-and-butter GTIs/Golfs.

2. No, as already explained, the R32, S3, and TT sat lower than the sport Golfs, and in order to maintain roll stiffness (among other things), the roll center had to be raised. They did the same thing with the MKII TT, information which is available in the SSP technical documentation on the TT.

Edit (from the MKII, but same tech applied to the MK1 and Golf R32):

Anyways, as mentioned, for someone looking for a simple solution, I'd go for stock sport springs with Bilstein HDs.

Edited by scherzkeks on Thursday 17th April 09:14