A6 C6 3.0T avant handling
Discussion
Clivey said:
I wonder if he'd have the same issue with a rival AWD product...?
When some complain about "understeer", what they often mean is that they feel that the car is nose heavy and reluctant to turn in, rather than the car actually ploughing straight on with the front wheels turned. I felt the former with the old S3 on the road but the latter at Donington.
There is no escaping the weight distribution, but that won't play much of a role in this context. The limits are so high, that an objectionable understeer event is neigh on impossible on a public road at sane speeds.When some complain about "understeer", what they often mean is that they feel that the car is nose heavy and reluctant to turn in, rather than the car actually ploughing straight on with the front wheels turned. I felt the former with the old S3 on the road but the latter at Donington.
A track is a different story, but again, weight transfer management and understanding of the dynamics of a typical nose-heavy AWD chassis vs. RWD with an overly light rear (like a BMW sedan) would nullify most complaints. Most Audis require only a set of wider EPS tires for enjoyable light track work, as the stock limits even with ESP on are above what many would or could attempt to push safely. BTW, the S3 you mention was noted for its very good turn-in characteristics.
scherzkeks said:
There is no escaping the weight distribution, but that won't play much of a role in this context. The limits are so high, that an objectionable understeer event is neigh on impossible on a public road at sane speeds.
Key phrase there. - I'm not suggesting that it happens when you're driving "normally". The same is true to a lesser extent with many FWD cars. - I've borrowed a 2012 Corsa from a family member whilst the Discovery's in for some work / upgrades. They're renowned for "safety understeer" etc. but you'll only feel that if you're pushing it.The handling characteristics of the Audis under discussion are obviously engineered-in as an attempt at giving the cars some "character"; I remember reading about the development of the A5 in Evo:
Evo Review said:
There are three main things wrong with the A5 idea. Here’s the first. Compared with other Audis with front-mounted, longitudinal engines, it has a revised disposition of major components. The differential is now between the engine and the clutch, which brings the front wheels forward to the benefit of weight distribution and looks, and the lower-mounted steering rack is connected to the front wheels by shorter, less flexible steering arms. Yet, to drive, the A5 – and S5 especially – still has the nose-heavy, inert feel the new chassis was surely intended to eradicate.
So, what happened? Dr Horst Glaser, Audi’s dynamics chief, is clearly annoyed. ‘I agree with you,’ he says, ‘but the marketing people insisted it was this way so the A5 would feel familiar to Audi buyers.’ What about those buyers Audi seeks to steal from BMW, then? ‘I hope we can change it gradually,’ Dr Glaser replies, ruefully.
It just seems like a shame and a wasted opportunity to build a better car, to be honest.So, what happened? Dr Horst Glaser, Audi’s dynamics chief, is clearly annoyed. ‘I agree with you,’ he says, ‘but the marketing people insisted it was this way so the A5 would feel familiar to Audi buyers.’ What about those buyers Audi seeks to steal from BMW, then? ‘I hope we can change it gradually,’ Dr Glaser replies, ruefully.
scherzkeks said:
A track is a different story, but again, weight transfer management and understanding of the dynamics of a typical nose-heavy AWD chassis vs. RWD with an overly light rear (like a BMW sedan) would nullify most complaints. Most Audis require only a set of wider EPS tires for enjoyable light track work, as the stock limits even with ESP on are above what many would or could attempt to push safely. BTW, the S3 you mention was noted for its very good turn-in characteristics.
Bearing in mind the above, there's obviously a lot in the setup. Now back to the OP's question(s); the key would be figuring-out what the engineers did to "make it feel familiar to Audi buyers", surely?Clivey said:
Key phrase there. - I'm not suggesting that it happens when you're driving "normally". The same is true to a lesser extent with many FWD cars. - I've borrowed a 2012 Corsa from a family member whilst the Discovery's in for some work / upgrades. They're renowned for "safety understeer" etc. but you'll only feel that if you're pushing it.
The handling characteristics of the Audis under discussion are obviously engineered-in as an attempt at giving the cars some "character"; I remember reading about the development of the A5 in Evo:
It just seems like a shame and a wasted opportunity to build a better car, to be honest.
Sure, the set up plays a major role with Audi, something I have mentioned in our past discussions. But, again, this is where the role of the driver also comes into play. The limits on the ESP and the set up are quite high, and you've got to be pretty ham-fisted to trigger an intervention in the dry (particularly on an S model). These models also get flogged around tracks in testing, truly at their limits, so the idea that the average PHer is approaching this limit to the point that objectionable understeer is occurring on a public road is silly. The handling characteristics of the Audis under discussion are obviously engineered-in as an attempt at giving the cars some "character"; I remember reading about the development of the A5 in Evo:
It just seems like a shame and a wasted opportunity to build a better car, to be honest.
You are largely talking about feel, not capability or the cars actual limits, which seems to be a key concern voiced here.
Clivey said:
Bearing in mind the above, there's obviously a lot in the setup. Now back to the OP's question(s); the key would be figuring-out what the engineers did to "make it feel familiar to Audi buyers", surely?
Sure, if he's actually going to track an A6. Geo. is where most track rats start with Audi, but this barge is going to need a bit more than that. 
scherzkeks said:
So your problem is corner entry speed? Hm, what could you do about that? Slow down on entry? Trail brake?
The idea that you are pushing the car to its "limits" on a public road is comical. The limit is so high, that driver error is far more likely. Why would you drive an AWD chassis like a RWD one and expect it to behave identically?
I didn't say I was pushing the car to its limits, I didn't expect it to behave identically, I just didn't like the way it did handle. The idea that you are pushing the car to its "limits" on a public road is comical. The limit is so high, that driver error is far more likely. Why would you drive an AWD chassis like a RWD one and expect it to behave identically?
I was simply stating that for me to take it down some nice twisty roads and have that feeling I love where a car just flows through the bends I was having to slow down too much to really enjoy it.
Slowing into the bend and then powering out, was fine, but not what I found as enjoyable as before.
With the BMWs they just seemed to have that nice gliding feeling that suited 'my driving style' far more than the nose heavy S4 V8 had, they seemed to be graceful, they just seemed to go wherever you pointed them, where as with the S4 you had to be fighting with the front and the weight of the thing as you went round the corners.
There may have been some miraculous way of changing driving styles to eliminate the above, but every single person I spoke with said 'That's just the way they are.' The exception being you.
And I just didn't want to try and find a way round the handling to try and make it fun, I had it for a few months and just thought it easier to go and buy a 335i.
scherzkeks said:
Sure, the set up plays a major role with Audi, something I have mentioned in our past discussions. But, again, this is where the role of the driver also comes into play. The limits on the ESP and the set up are quite high, and you've got to be pretty ham-fisted to trigger an intervention in the dry (particularly on an S model). These models also get flogged around tracks in testing, truly at their limits, so the idea that the average PHer is approaching this limit to the point that objectionable understeer is occurring on a public road is silly.
You're missing the point, it is not a case of it 'triggering an intervention' it is just the fact of how it feels. I like one, I didn't like the other.
scherzkeks said:
Sure, the set up plays a major role with Audi, something I have mentioned in our past discussions. But, again, this is where the role of the driver also comes into play. The limits on the ESP and the set up are quite high, and you've got to be pretty ham-fisted to trigger an intervention in the dry (particularly on an S model). These models also get flogged around tracks in testing, truly at their limits, so the idea that the average PHer is approaching this limit to the point that objectionable understeer is occurring on a public road is silly.
Nobody's claiming to be driving consistently at 10/10ths on a public road; I agree that would be silly. You can, however, take a car to some quiet country roads and make it move around in the corners. I did so just last weekend in the Mini (the e-diff is quite effective and you can have quite a bit of fun with it until the other half starts moaning 
).scherzkeks said:
You are largely talking about feel, not capability or the cars actual limits, which seems to be a key concern voiced here.
Precisely; there's a lot of talk about subjective handling, not the stopwatch. The latter is pretty meaningless for a road car and that's why I'd personally rather drive an old MX-5 for fun than something like a Golf R, which would trounce it against the clock.Having said that though, my friend's old S3 definitely couldn't corner as quickly as, and was noticeably slower than the E82 135i (his next car) & Evo IX.
scherzkeks said:
...but this barge is going to need a bit more than that.
Agreed.gizlaroc said:
scherzkeks said:
Btw, scherzkeks, why didn't you come to say hello at the Ring last month, you promised to be there to see me crash on my s
tty Supersports. scherzkeks said:
I'll bringing the Merc to TüV. Watch out on those street tires, wouldn't want you to slide into a barrier in a cloud of poetic justice.
You still haven't explained that "poetic justice" thing. Do you even know ?Clivey said:
Having said that though, my friend's old S3 definitely couldn't corner as quickly as, and was noticeably slower than the E82 135i (his next car) & Evo IX.
All things being equal that's consistent with my experience of the front end grip (or lack of) in a S3/S4s. I guess little camber, heavy+tall engines ahead of the (also heavy) front axle doesn't help, it's also usually exacerbated by 4wd. The other issue being that at least with RWD or a more aggressive 4wd you can often keep the early understeer on karting style or even neutralise the car, if you have enough road and skills...Very easy to safely find the limit of a S4's front end on the open road.
Edited by nickfrog on Friday 14th November 23:37
greggy50 said:
The V10 RS6 are comically quick in a straight line but will still default to under-steer if push it enough
Tell me more about the RS6 C6s handling, im planing on getting one and im wondering how would it compare to my A5 Sportback 3.0 TDI Quattro? Im guessing it should be better but could you tell me more?I've found that of the Audis I've driven, air suspension makes a massive difference to comfort/body control compromise, even on 19 and 21" wheels. Sport rear diff gives some corner exit oversteer in the wet. I haven't understeered at steady state cornering, only with deliberately coarse inputs and then was surprised there was oversteer. The 21" Contisport Contact 5 had a little less tread on the front than the back, so the underlying balance of the car is good. The weight distribution is more even than I thought, the engine is quite compact fore-aft. The 19" winters squeal a bit but the balance remains neutral.
I moved from a 530d Touring directly into my 3.0TDi Avant.
I don't consider myself to be a 'good' driver but even I could tell the difference between the way they handled. The 5 was pleasant to drive on country roads, the A6 just isn't.
Whether it's actually understeering or not, whether it's balance, flow or whatever when you go from one straight into the other you can tell the difference between being pulled around a corner and being pushed.
I think quattro helps Audis in this regard. The FWD 2.0d courtesy A6 we had when our 5 was being repaired, was awful in that respect.
Overall though, I still prefer the A6 as it suits my driving style - which is pretty hamfisted. Or ham-footed.
I don't consider myself to be a 'good' driver but even I could tell the difference between the way they handled. The 5 was pleasant to drive on country roads, the A6 just isn't.
Whether it's actually understeering or not, whether it's balance, flow or whatever when you go from one straight into the other you can tell the difference between being pulled around a corner and being pushed.
I think quattro helps Audis in this regard. The FWD 2.0d courtesy A6 we had when our 5 was being repaired, was awful in that respect.
Overall though, I still prefer the A6 as it suits my driving style - which is pretty hamfisted. Or ham-footed.
Maxem888 said:
Tell me more about the RS6 C6s handling, im planing on getting one and im wondering how would it compare to my A5 Sportback 3.0 TDI Quattro? Im guessing it should be better but could you tell me more?
One I drove was on a red letter style day a couple of years ago, it was the quickest car I have ever driven in a straight line I have driven a 550 Ferrari on a track as well and this felt faster to me to be honest!Handling wise due to the day could not push to limit but even at medium speeds it had the feeling pushing wide a bit in the corners and didn't seem very adjustable on the throttle. However on a track probably didn't show its strengths really never drive one on the road but imagine they are a good road car really very stable and secure and with a remap 700hp.
Personally I would take an F10 M5 myself not driven one but would assume it would be a more fun drive from what I have read and certainly better on track. However if just want a daily drive thats fast and not too fussed about on the limit handling sure the RS6 is a great car.
Put it this way if it was my only car would take the M5 if I had a weekend toy I would probably go for the RS6...
Maxem888 said:
Tell me more about the RS6 C6s handling, im planing on getting one and im wondering how would it compare to my A5 Sportback 3.0 TDI Quattro? Im guessing it should be better but could you tell me more?
I've got a 700bhp C6 RS6 and I think it handles pretty well for a car of its size and considerable weight. It is far from nimble but it does have a lot of grip and will take corners at a very high speed with a great level of perceived security. It will understeer when really pushed but as others have said this has never been a problem for me on the road. It will go so fast in a straight line it always feels pretty pointless and childish screeching round a roundabout in a 2+ tonne car only to catch and blast past pretty much anything.The RS6 also has the 3 adjustable modes, comfort, dynamic and sport. Comfort does what it says on the tin but at speed round twisties can be vague and a little scary. Dynamic is all I use for spirited driving and provides a firmer ride with far more feel and balance. Sport in the UK is basically useless unless on a smooth track, it's really harsh and the bump absorption is tragic. I often find myself going down an A road in comfort, flicking it into dynamic for bends and straight back to comfort again.
I haven't driven an A5 but I gather they understeer a bit too, I'm guessing it not as bad with quattro but obviously if it's fwd then I would imagine understeer would be more of a theme!
Maxem888 said:
greggy50 said:
Its going to be more of a weekend toy than an every day car for me!
For £30k they is a lot more interesting metal available for a weekend car something like a V8 Vantage or a 911 etc...
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