Second hand values of golf R

Second hand values of golf R

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Discussion

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Friday 6th March 2015
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foreverfalling said:
What did you rate it out of 10 crafty?

Mines the lsg. Love it smile
Difficult, not sure how to rate it really. maybe people can contribute to my dilemma....

I'm driving a well mapped Astra VXR currently. I say well, because I've driven some maps that are rubbish, I'm very pleased with the map I chose. the car is 8 years old and has been very good to me and costs little to keep on the road (I had to buy a battery last year, thats about it).

Its a nippers car and I'm a long way from being one! I've had my fun, but want something a bit more grown up. I started out with a view to buying something 2-3 years old, but I can't find anything I like that doesn't have impending wallet doom on maintenance or is any different to the astra.
New astra is more of the same, it doesn't give me anything. They haven't been a success despite good reviews. My car, despite being hated enjoyed better success. Vauxhall bowed to the media pressure and made a car thats good but has lost some character to me. Silly 20" wheels, power not massively better than mine, brembo front brakes are great but discs & pads are £1500 from a dealer (yes you read that right!). Focus ST ? again doesnt move me on from my car really and I dislike the looks.
Leon Cupra much the same, looks better than focus but its too anonymous.

So, budget is creeping up and somehow Im looking at new cars all of a sudden :|

My astra, even stock has an aggressive torque plot, its there right through the rev range. The map is a real improvement. The golf is 30lb/ft down peak on my astra, would need to have a look at some dyno plots of golfs but I'm guessing the astra holds more through the revs too. I love the aggressive nature of the LEH engine but a golf is simply going to walk away from it, especially in dsg form but doesn't have that aggression. I didn't expect the golf to be aggressive like that - no stock car would be, this what I mean by it drives as I expect, it simply doesn't feel like 280lb/ft, I didn't get that "we're off!" feel.
I didn't pay attention to where the DSG shifted but I think the Golf breathed better at the high end than the astra, but thats a characteristic of the LEH engine, its only a baby turbo really.

The golf is a seriously rapid car and I can imagine it would be great fun on a track. Obviously I didn't get the chance to throw it around but I have no doubt you could seriously chuck it about.
If I had to criticise performance I think it could be too capable.

My old commute was 30 miles of b-roads, in the astra I made swift progress but always mindful of what the car/I could do. In time you got to know there was a bit of camber in this corner, or that corner tightens a bit, the trees on that little straight mask the sun and leave standing water on an otherwise dry road and so on. With this knowledge you know to be off the brakes, hold back on throttle, keep away from a verge etc.

Doing that run the golf would take much more in its stride - orders of magnitude more. You wouldn't be even nearly pushing the car at all to travel at the same rate as I used to in the astra. The car would be far more capable than me, so this goes one of two ways:

1) You start pushing harder, probably make a mistake and have a huge, huge accident. This is obviously not a desirable outcome.
2) You drive at a far lower level than the car is capable of and don't die.
My problem here is will it still be enjoyable ? Years ago I test drove a Mk2 leon cupra, I had a Mk1 cupra r at the time. The Mk2 was quicker, braked better, understeered less etc. Feck me I thought, this is awesome! I came to a village so slowed and behaved myself and was instantly disappointed, because the car didn't feel any different. Leaving the village it didn't seem as much fun.

The astra is a bit jekyll and hyde, pootle along its like anything else. Start going fast and (to me at least) it sort of takes on a different character, it makes me want to push the throttle again and have it leap forwards, its a bit mischievous, uncivilised. Its the sex pistols rather than coldplay. The performance and handling is miles behind the current cars, but then the chassis/engine is 8 years old in this iteration, itself just a development of the mk4. When I bought the car it was by far the best bang for the buck. I reckon it was probably one of the last cheap hot hatches that was a bit brash and unrefined. I passed up all the other hot hatches of the time for the astra, do not regret it one bit but time to move on.

I suppose what I'm saying is the golf (and I have no doubt all the other hot hatches) are refined, smooth, civilised. They are also very expensive and laden with tech. They've all lost that attitude that hot hatches of the past have had. In looks and lairyness this is good, Im getting old and driving a "boy racer" car gets you some odd looks and you occasionally feel like a bit of a spanner.

As said, I drive an M135 tomorrow. Never, ever thought I'd be considering a BMW. I expect it to be very smooth like the golf. It has more power/torque (320ps/330lb/ft), but honestly either are more than enough. I read a review of some lucky chap that has both cars at his disposal, part of his summary was you will probably have a bit more fun in the BMW, whilst travelling slower than the golf. We shall see.

Having only had fwd or 4wd I am a little apprehensive of RWD but from all i read (and a little track time in a VXR8) the way I drive isn't too far off the "right" way to drive RWD, nevertheless I will have to adapt and I suspect I will be driving on eggshells for a while. Bad weather does concern me in RWD too.

Pluses to the golf:
Quick
Few vices (blind spots, bad visibility etc)
DSG box was easy to get used to and was spot on with timing of changes
Acknowledged/appreciated.

Cons
Interior. Cloth poor, leather very expensive
Stupid lead times. Sort it out VW
Front end is too plain
Stock wheels arent pretty, upgrade much nicer (£900) but 19", prefer to be on 18s

Im sure if I bought one I'd get to like it more and more. Its the only 4wd hot hatch in budget that I'd want to own (I think the RS is ugly, & dont want 5 door).

Anyone else got any other ideas for cars to look at ? S3 is more expensive, not a huge fan of the Audi following, similar to the golf R with chintz is how I see it. Even though I haven't looked at one I think I would go for an R over it. Previous S3 never got a good write up. I do liek the look of the saloon S3 though!

Did consider renaultsport, but the thought of a french car on the drive will keep me awake at night!

A friend suggested a 3-4 year old S4. I don't really need a car that big and big bills scare me... I think thats another step up. Same brand issues as S3.

Other option is to wait and buy a used R or M135.

if you managed to get this far through my ramblings, well done!

I will post more drivel later paperbag

ilduce said:
No. Not compared to the original price paid for the extras. You might get 10% of the extras price when you come to sell and it might sell faster than a poverty spec but don't think you'll be laughing on the way to the bank. I've heard rumours of a GFV of about 17k after 2 years.
17k, holy st! I wouldn't expect it to be anything like that - maybe at four years but not two. I wonder how accurate that is?

ilduce

485 posts

126 months

Saturday 7th March 2015
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Crafty_ said:
ilduce said:
No. Not compared to the original price paid for the extras. You might get 10% of the extras price when you come to sell and it might sell faster than a poverty spec but don't think you'll be laughing on the way to the bank. I've heard rumours of a GFV of about 17k after 2 years.
17k, holy st! I wouldn't expect it to be anything like that - maybe at four years but not two. I wonder how accurate that is?
It's a car. After 3 years & avg mileage you'll be looking at 35% of the value remaining. Maybe 40% because-Golf. That's 13k trade-in value. You may get a few more £K privately but that's the reality especially as, unlike the R32, there will be lots of choice out there.

Lucas Ayde

3,541 posts

167 months

Saturday 7th March 2015
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ilduce said:
No. Not compared to the original price paid for the extras. You might get 10% of the extras price when you come to sell and it might sell faster than a poverty spec but don't think you'll be laughing on the way to the bank. I've heard rumours of a GFV of about 17k after 2 years.
Indeed - I'm always surprised that people seem to think that optional extras generally hold some sort of significant value when it comes to resale. Occasionally they will manage to depreciate no slower than the rest of the car and hold a chunk of what it cost the new buyer, but only specific options. Stuff like built-in Nav has a chance of holding some sort of additional resale value.

The only time I've seen extras routinely add any sort of significant value (or rather, increase in the asking price) on used models is at Porsche official dealers who do seem to factor them into their pricing structure for used.

ilduce

485 posts

126 months

Saturday 7th March 2015
quotequote all
Lucas Ayde said:
ilduce said:
No. Not compared to the original price paid for the extras. You might get 10% of the extras price when you come to sell and it might sell faster than a poverty spec but don't think you'll be laughing on the way to the bank. I've heard rumours of a GFV of about 17k after 2 years.
Indeed - I'm always surprised that people seem to think that optional extras generally hold some sort of significant value when it comes to resale. Occasionally they will manage to depreciate no slower than the rest of the car and hold a chunk of what it cost the new buyer, but only specific options. Stuff like built-in Nav has a chance of holding some sort of additional resale value.

The only time I've seen extras routinely add any sort of significant value (or rather, increase in the asking price) on used models is at Porsche official dealers who do seem to factor them into their pricing structure for used.
Ha ha! Porsche! You can guarantee that the poor mug who px'ed the Porsche had been told that "extras make the car more saleable but don't really add anything to the price, sir." The 2 yr old SLK I traded didn't have sat nav- they said I could have had an extra £750 if it had. It cost £2.2k.

Also bear in mind that to make any new Porsche not feel/look like a base Kia you have to budget on 10k of extras... as a starting point. I managed to get away with only 8k by choosing free white paint and only speccing xenons, cruise, and 19inch wheels. They wanted £180 to paint the tiny nozzles on the headlamp washers in white instead of chrome. I told them I had a bottle of tippex at home.

foreverfalling

527 posts

164 months

Saturday 7th March 2015
quotequote all
Crafty. Why did you think of the m135?

Have a friend who leased one and he's really bored. He wants the golf.

What about a Manual golf R for more involvement? Maybe that would suit you perfectly?

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Sunday 8th March 2015
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foreverfalling said:
Crafty. Why did you think of the m135?

Have a friend who leased one and he's really bored. He wants the golf.

What about a Manual golf R for more involvement? Maybe that would suit you perfectly?
From my perspective if the 135 doesn't entertain, the golf certainly will not. Why is your mate bored with it ? Has he driven a golf ?

Why did I think of the M135 ? More of a case of why not? similar list prices, within 10% of each other with power, torque is a different story as the M has about 20% more.

A manual box won't change the golf. The problem for me is it doesn't make me want to drive it. Its very capable (maybe too capable) and does what you ask - you prod a pedal or move the wheel and it does what you asked, but its white goods, doesn't seem to have any character. Its a golf thing. I drove a gti and R32 when I bought the astra and the R is the same as those cars, competent, capable. But for me ? boring. Its a safe car, its not going to ever catch you by surprise, the mapping is very, very smooth - it feels nothing like 280lb/ft. As a first turbo car or an upgrade from a gti its going to feel amazing, but its missing that little sense of occasion, a nice surge of torque that gives a sense of speed, something to make you realise that this is actually a little bit special.

Its a fast car, but doesn't feel like it. I'd actually prefer it to go slower and have a bit more feel/impact. If you want to go very quickly with a minimum of effort its a great car. It just didn't feel fun to me. I wasn't surprised, more disappointed. I think it could be so much better (for me at least).

I've driven an M135 today and it isn't perfect (I don't think any car is) but at the moment it ticks more boxes than the golf. I'm not totally sure yet and would like some other cars to add to the compare list, alas I've run out of ideas on what to try. Doesn't have to be new or a hatch. I was talking to a mate tonight and he said "the golf isn't a car built for us", he's right. The quest is to find something that is or at least has the least number of compromises.

Little Lofty

3,275 posts

150 months

Sunday 8th March 2015
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ilduce said:
It's a car. After 3 years & avg mileage you'll be looking at 35% of the value remaining. Maybe 40% because-Golf. That's 13k trade-in value. You may get a few more £K privately but that's the reality especially as, unlike the R32, there will be lots of choice out there.
The 3 year GFV is around 50% with around 60% retained value at 2 years, that's based on list price so when you factor in the easily achieved £3500 discount the percentages are even better. I was lucky to buy mine before VW reduced the GFV, mine is set at over 75% over two years, making my monthlies £200 less than they would be if I bought today.

foreverfalling

527 posts

164 months

Sunday 8th March 2015
quotequote all


Sorry autocorrect made it

why did you think of the m135.

I meant "what did you think of the m135i"

Edited by foreverfalling on Sunday 8th March 22:27

ilduce

485 posts

126 months

Monday 9th March 2015
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Little Lofty said:
ilduce said:
It's a car. After 3 years & avg mileage you'll be looking at 35% of the value remaining. Maybe 40% because-Golf. That's 13k trade-in value. You may get a few more £K privately but that's the reality especially as, unlike the R32, there will be lots of choice out there.
The 3 year GFV is around 50% with around 60% retained value at 2 years, that's based on list price so when you factor in the easily achieved £3500 discount the percentages are even better. I was lucky to buy mine before VW reduced the GFV, mine is set at over 75% over two years, making my monthlies £200 less than they would be if I bought today.
50% of £30k is £15k so I wasn't far out.
Seems like you were lucky. I've done a few searches and found the GFV VW has been reduced from 19k to 16k other say 60% so 18k.

georgefreeman

214 posts

112 months

Monday 9th March 2015
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What would you expect the GFV to be after 4 years?

Little Lofty

3,275 posts

150 months

Monday 9th March 2015
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georgefreeman said:
What would you expect the GFV to be after 4 years?
The VW finance calculator is pretty accurate.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/financeCalculator/gen...

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
foreverfalling said:
Sorry autocorrect made it

why did you think of the m135.

I meant "what did you think of the m135i"

Edited by foreverfalling on Sunday 8th March 22:27
Ah gotcha.

In short I believe it's the better car, for me anyway.

The steering has better weight to it, and was more precise, right from the off I knew exactly how much input it needed.

When accelerating it actually feels fast (and is a bloody fast car!), nice slug of torque on kickdown. The noise is awesome, still some fakery going on but you can hear engine/exhaust and its glorious.
The gearbox is an 8 speed, conventional auto, still has flappy paddles and a full manual mode. Smoother than the dsg and just as quick. No clutches or mechatronics units !

Brakes felt better than the golf and I didn't even need to use them hard. I'd imagine when used hard they'd be very impressive.
I accelerated hard from low speed on several occasions, no traction light, no squirm from the rear, no problem. I don't doubt you could get it out of shape at WOT with steering angle on, but a fwd or haldex car would just understeer into the verge so in the dry at least I don't think Rwd and open diff would be a huge issue.

Im not really too fussy on interiors (I think my old astra is fine for example) but the M is just of a higher class. Leather as standard (£295 option to heat them). The dash is simple with huge tach/speedo. Very simple, very effective. The rest of the controls (heating/ventilation/radio etc) are better placed, I'd be able to find them without taking my eyes of the road. They are a more tactile interface than the vw touchscreen, so at worst you could feel your way around.
The LCD screen is virtually in your eyeline, so again, more visible.

overall it was just of a higher class than the golf and a nice place to sit. the very first time you get in one it feels very different to an astra/golf etc in terms of seating position - higher centre console, a bit closer to the windscreen, floor mounted throttle pedal. Second time around it felt more normal and very comfortable.
The best way I can describe it is in a golf/astra/whatever you sit on the seat in the car, in the M you sit in the seat with the car around you.
The golf is very conventional and to an extent felt like an update to the astra. As unfamiliar as the bmw was initially I soon felt at home.

18" wheels (no options) suits me fine and they look good. The LCI is not out yet but the pre-lci looks good in the flesh (metal?), every picture of the lci I see makes me like it a bit more.

Far as money goes if you look at used ones prices are very strong. The cheapest used one I can find at 3 years old is 75% the cost I was quoted, all the other cars are 80% or higher. There is a base spec car at under a year old on the AUC with 9k miles, it's less than £1k cheaper than a new LCI with spec added.

So the deal put on the table was such that there is no point in looking at used. Discount in the very high teens and the guys at Berry BMW Heathrow couldn't be nicer, which is a lot more than can be said for the guy at my local vw dealer.

It is an awful lot of car for the money. I'm told that they are as quick as an e92 M3, don't know enough about M3s to agree or otherwise. What's more important to me is it has the feel that makes me want to drive it, to accelerate and feel the torque, turn the wheel to guide the car through corners and so on.

So yeah I liked it. Like the sales guy said with a littlw smile "it's the secret".

Now you're going to ask why haven't I ordered?

I'm agonising over money. This car is 175% of what I paid for the astra. The BMW is well priced to rivals - for example a new model astra vxr would be no more than 10% cheaper, obviously the BMW offers much more.
Believe it or not the BMW would be cheaper to look after too. 18k/2 year service schedule at £260. Brakes are cheap - £90 a disc from GSF So maybe you'd be all done at £300 ish. The astra is 4 or 5 times that!!

Its mostly because cars have got very,very expensive. I did a bit of research and reckon that car prices have outstripped inflation 3 times over since 2007.

I can afford the BMW with little issue, I don't smoke, rarely drink, have no dependants and a small mortgage. however this sort of money seems an awful extravagance.

Watch chris Harris (or similar) videos and see how hard the cars are getting driven - whatever I buy is never going to get used that hard, it's almost a waste of a car to use it as I would.

For what I need a car for a boggo tdi or 1600 petrol of something or other. But I've always had high end models so the idea of sticking 10 or more into a boggo car is, well.. A bit upsetting.

This would be the same regardless of the car, I can't justify the money really.

I either say "bks, I'm having one" and spend the money.

Or look for something cheaper. Problem here is that's where I started out and didn't really find anything.

I could lease, but given current residuals in 2 years it looks as if a lease would cost more. In any case is probably keep the car (whatever I get) quite a bit longer than that

How does everyone else justify what they spend? Be it lease, PCP or purchase?


The only other car I can see is a 2012 S3, which are in the low 20s. Seem to ferment they were not all that popular when new, other than that I know littlw about them. Not a huge fan of the brand and know a tech who will likely have many tales of woe, given the brand is a shadow of its former self.



Edited by Crafty_ on Monday 9th March 14:16

RS Grant

1,416 posts

232 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
I'd disagree with a few things you've said regarding the M135i, but then everyone is different and has different tastes.

I can justify the lease costs of the Golf to myself quite easily, it's £200 per month for 2 years... the downside is that I will have nothing to show for it. But I change my cars fairly frequently, 6-18 months depending on how well I get on with them. Plus I get to enjoy a brand new car for two years and it'll cost me around the same (maybe a touch less given the lower GFV people have been getting recently) to lease than it would to buy it and then swallow the depreciation when the time comes to sell it on.


Cheers,
Grant

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
Grant, thanks for the reply. What didn't you like about the 135?

missing the VR6

2,319 posts

188 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
ilduce said:
No. Not compared to the original price paid for the extras. You might get 10% of the extras price when you come to sell and it might sell faster than a poverty spec but don't think you'll be laughing on the way to the bank. I've heard rumours of a GFV of about 17k after 2 years.
GFV is completely irrelevant to the 2nd hand price of the car. Just because the GFV maybe £17k doesn't mean a garage will retail it for £19k. There's the broader market picture to consider. Speaking from my own experience when I was at Skoda and Yeti had 7 month lead times, GFV's were say £12k but we were offering customers £16ish on a 3 year old car which would have been £24k new.

ilduce

485 posts

126 months

Monday 9th March 2015
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Little Lofty said:
georgefreeman said:
What would you expect the GFV to be after 4 years?
The VW finance calculator is pretty accurate.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/financeCalculator/gen...
Is the figure we're supposed to look at for GFV, the "optional final payment"?

If so @ 15k miles/year it's this:

2yrs 16k
3yrs 13.5k
4yrs 11.5k

I wasn't that far out.

RS Grant

1,416 posts

232 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
Crafty_ said:
Grant, thanks for the reply. What didn't you like about the 135?
I drove one and thought the engine, auto box and nav interface were outstanding... I was viewing it as a 'do-everything' replacement for my Mondeo ST daily and E46 M3 weekend car at the time.

- Interior quality wasn't fantastic, you could tell that it was the entry level BMW and a couple of irritating interior squeaks and vibrations were apparent on the demonstrator.

- Wasn't a fan of the open diff one bit, although I think I read somewhere that an LSD is optional now? ...which would be the first option I'd tick.

- Being into my cars, I need something which makes you want to look back at your car as you walk away, I just couldn't see it happening with the M135i. It looks like, apart from some awkward looking alloys and twin exhausts, the same as any other M-Sport in the range... so it was a bit toooo much of a sleeper for me.

- Then the more I looked at it, the more I couldn't get on with the goggle eye headlights either.

- It wasn't super cheap, IIRC around £350 a month if I remember correctly, but given my reservations it wasn't a gamble which I was willing to take... had the deal/contribution been replicated on the M235i then I might well have pulled the trigger and worst case, fitted a Quaife LSD.


Cheers,
Grant

RS Grant

1,416 posts

232 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
ilduce said:
Little Lofty said:
georgefreeman said:
What would you expect the GFV to be after 4 years?
The VW finance calculator is pretty accurate.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/financeCalculator/gen...
Is the figure we're supposed to look at for GFV, the "optional final payment"?

If so @ 15k miles/year it's this:

2yrs 16k
3yrs 13.5k
4yrs 11.5k

I wasn't that far out.
Almost; the optional final payment is meant to be less than the GFV of the car so that come the end of the agreement, you are left with some cash for them to roll into the next deal to make the figures nice and attractive in an attempt to keep your business.


Cheers,
Grant

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
RS Grant said:
Crafty_ said:
Grant, thanks for the reply. What didn't you like about the 135?
I drove one and thought the engine, auto box and nav interface were outstanding... I was viewing it as a 'do-everything' replacement for my Mondeo ST daily and E46 M3 weekend car at the time.

- Interior quality wasn't fantastic, you could tell that it was the entry level BMW and a couple of irritating interior squeaks and vibrations were apparent on the demonstrator.

- Wasn't a fan of the open diff one bit, although I think I read somewhere that an LSD is optional now? ...which would be the first option I'd tick.

- Being into my cars, I need something which makes you want to look back at your car as you walk away, I just couldn't see it happening with the M135i. It looks like, apart from some awkward looking alloys and twin exhausts, the same as any other M-Sport in the range... so it was a bit toooo much of a sleeper for me.

- Then the more I looked at it, the more I couldn't get on with the goggle eye headlights either.

- It wasn't super cheap, IIRC around £350 a month if I remember correctly, but given my reservations it wasn't a gamble which I was willing to take... had the deal/contribution been replicated on the M235i then I might well have pulled the trigger and worst case, fitted a Quaife LSD.


Cheers,
Grant
Yes, you can get a Quaife LSD from Birds and an M performance one too (both 135 and 235). Not cheap mind.
I haven't driven one hard enough on roads for the diff to be an issue, were you getting it spinning the inside wheel up?

The LCI (you'll have to ignore the horrendous colour and floor reflections, but http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10... is an improvement in my eyes. The babybmw lot are all getting a bit het up about where the boot badge should go hehe As you see the headlights are gone and it looks a bit more "family BMW" now.

I'm not going PCP/whatever, so the costs to me are mostly decimation of savings. Still finding it hard to justify, but it'd be the same for the golf or whatever else.
The only thing I can see is a 2010-12 S3, which would be less but I'm dubious about the brand and I seem to remember the write ups were lukewarm when it came out.


silentbrown

8,792 posts

115 months

Monday 9th March 2015
quotequote all
RS Grant said:
Almost; the optional final payment is meant to be less than the GFV of the car so that come the end of the agreement, you are left with some cash for them to roll into the next deal to make the figures nice and attractive in an attempt to keep your business.
I think that's wrong. The 'actual' final value may be more than the optional final payment, because it would be dumb for them to guarantee too high a final value. Pretty sure the 'optional final payment' is just a different name for the GFV?