Volkswagen compensation
Discussion
Indeed! 
I'm not sure if taxing fuel is right, but there could be some sort of compromise.
For example, I actually used the words, "Emissions are the manufacturer's problem, not mine", the other day. Whilst I was being a bit flippant at the time, I realised I was kinda right. My road tax is £X regardless whether I do 1 mile or 1,000,000 miles. The only difference is the amount of fuel I put in...which is already taxed pretty heavily by comparison.
The way I see it, taxing fuel hurts the end user...so a bit like trying to get me to use less electricity by putting the price up, I need to turn the light on and as such I am 'held to ransom' by an external force. For our cars, if I already own as efficient a car as I can afford - or as efficient as current technology allows - I am going to feel annoyed at having what I see as no choice but to pay.
Whilst that is fine and I need to pay my way, I believe that the biggest onus is on the manufacturers to improve things. Not necessarily by setting ridiculous targets for fleet emissions or some such, but by creating a full set of standard, real-world tests for fuel consumption and emissions and also incentivising innovation.
By creating a true level playing field, everyone will know where they stand. If I am being taxed for consumption via petrol/whatever and I can see that the Mercedes A-class offers the same performance etc as a VW Golf but with less nasty bits, then I am going to vote with my feet and buy the Merc. VW will have to respond.
By incentivising innovation, the sky is the limit.If manufacturers are rewarded (however that may be) by creating a true next-gen technology, then development will increase.
Ultimately, any model which reduces/increases taxation based on emissions, will be short lived. We've already seen evidence of that with the new tax bands being brought in that will introduce road tax for those cars that previously were exempt.
Currently I can go and charge my Tesla for free whilst shopping...you can bet your arse that will stop as soon as demand increases.
Anyway...ramble, ramble....
I'm not sure if taxing fuel is right, but there could be some sort of compromise.
For example, I actually used the words, "Emissions are the manufacturer's problem, not mine", the other day. Whilst I was being a bit flippant at the time, I realised I was kinda right. My road tax is £X regardless whether I do 1 mile or 1,000,000 miles. The only difference is the amount of fuel I put in...which is already taxed pretty heavily by comparison.
The way I see it, taxing fuel hurts the end user...so a bit like trying to get me to use less electricity by putting the price up, I need to turn the light on and as such I am 'held to ransom' by an external force. For our cars, if I already own as efficient a car as I can afford - or as efficient as current technology allows - I am going to feel annoyed at having what I see as no choice but to pay.
Whilst that is fine and I need to pay my way, I believe that the biggest onus is on the manufacturers to improve things. Not necessarily by setting ridiculous targets for fleet emissions or some such, but by creating a full set of standard, real-world tests for fuel consumption and emissions and also incentivising innovation.
By creating a true level playing field, everyone will know where they stand. If I am being taxed for consumption via petrol/whatever and I can see that the Mercedes A-class offers the same performance etc as a VW Golf but with less nasty bits, then I am going to vote with my feet and buy the Merc. VW will have to respond.
By incentivising innovation, the sky is the limit.If manufacturers are rewarded (however that may be) by creating a true next-gen technology, then development will increase.
Ultimately, any model which reduces/increases taxation based on emissions, will be short lived. We've already seen evidence of that with the new tax bands being brought in that will introduce road tax for those cars that previously were exempt.
Currently I can go and charge my Tesla for free whilst shopping...you can bet your arse that will stop as soon as demand increases.
Anyway...ramble, ramble....
I've got a genuine dilema on this one. I placed an order for a Passat 190 TDI R-Line Estate 3 weeks ago as a company lease, which would see me entering into a 4 year deal. While I am not at all concerned about any percieved increase in depreciation during the 4 years, assuming the monthly lease cost isn't changed to account for this, I am concerned about two key points, if indeed this car is affected and requires removal of any slight of hand skull duggery where testing is concerned.
Firstly, as stated a number of times in this thread, if the NOx emissions are brought under control through a remap of sorts, what will this mean for BHP, Efficiency and CO2 emissions? I agree with the majority in this thread, that a slight decrease in MPG would not be of significant concern. However two of the main factors in choosing this car were performance, as I had a demo in the 150PS, but but opted for the 190Ps as I wanted a step up from my current Octavia VRS CR TDI, and also CO2 emissions, due to the VED attached with a company car. If either of these numbers change as a result of modification, as far as I am concerned the car is no longer the one that I signed the deal on.
The second main concern is around the accuracy of the stated 110g/km CO2 emissions, and the concern that if NOx is fiddled, what else might be? Where would I stand if in 1 years time it is found to be chucking out 150g/km, with me having 3 years remaining with a potentially hiked tax liability.
I have written to both the lease company and supplying dealer asking for clarification on theses points, and confirmation that I am not commited to the lease until they are clarified, but accept that there are probably no answers at the moment.
So, the question is, do I let the order go through in the hope/belief that I will end up with the car that I have signed up to lease? Or do I pull the plug based on the risk that I end up with a car that either costs me a fortune in unexpected tax, or that has it's performance reduced to ensure it legitimately achieves it's NOx target.
Genuine dilema, so thoughts would be appreciated.
Firstly, as stated a number of times in this thread, if the NOx emissions are brought under control through a remap of sorts, what will this mean for BHP, Efficiency and CO2 emissions? I agree with the majority in this thread, that a slight decrease in MPG would not be of significant concern. However two of the main factors in choosing this car were performance, as I had a demo in the 150PS, but but opted for the 190Ps as I wanted a step up from my current Octavia VRS CR TDI, and also CO2 emissions, due to the VED attached with a company car. If either of these numbers change as a result of modification, as far as I am concerned the car is no longer the one that I signed the deal on.
The second main concern is around the accuracy of the stated 110g/km CO2 emissions, and the concern that if NOx is fiddled, what else might be? Where would I stand if in 1 years time it is found to be chucking out 150g/km, with me having 3 years remaining with a potentially hiked tax liability.
I have written to both the lease company and supplying dealer asking for clarification on theses points, and confirmation that I am not commited to the lease until they are clarified, but accept that there are probably no answers at the moment.
So, the question is, do I let the order go through in the hope/belief that I will end up with the car that I have signed up to lease? Or do I pull the plug based on the risk that I end up with a car that either costs me a fortune in unexpected tax, or that has it's performance reduced to ensure it legitimately achieves it's NOx target.
Genuine dilema, so thoughts would be appreciated.
andrewparker said:
I was chatting with a client this morning and she has a friend who has recently bought an up! and is apparently "worried" that her car is affected and is not driving it until she knows. Are people really this stupid?!
Yes. Yes they are.(erm...you can't buy a diesel Up!, can you???)
With regards the chap above who is asking a perfectly valid question - I have no idea either. If I was fair, I would say that if your tax liability should change, then you have every right to be compensated for that difference (and that difference only!), as that is a quantifiable financial penalty and part of your provable buying decision.
I really don't think your tax liability will change if you are UK based, but I think in your situation I would just go for it and see what happens. If I was buying the car with my own money (not lease/business), then perhaps I would have a long hard think, but in your situation I say go for it. Enjoy your car - it's what you wanted.
I own an Audi A3 2.0TDI 150PS which is one of the vehicles that is affected. My worry, similar to the chap posting earlier, is that my car will get recalled, and a by product of sorting the emissions map will be a power drop. There must have been a reason that VAG chose to use the software only during emissions testing and not all the time. I accept that MPG is probably not affected so there is a good chance that the power will drop.
Where do I stand on this? I bought the more expensive 2.0 rather than the 1.6 because I wanted the extra power, but I could potentially have a vehicle with less power than advertised at the time of purchase. I agree that if it was 5-10PS then it probably wouldn't be an issue, but anything approaching 15-20% is enough to get annoyed at.
Also, if used car values are affected, any equity that I have built up in the car has been destroyed. I intentionally went with a conservative mileage limit when speccing the car so that I would have a car worth more than the GFMV at the end of the lease and therefore have a deposit for the next car guaranteed. Audi wont be able to change the GFMV so that puts a lot of PCP buyers in difficulty.
Where do I stand on this? I bought the more expensive 2.0 rather than the 1.6 because I wanted the extra power, but I could potentially have a vehicle with less power than advertised at the time of purchase. I agree that if it was 5-10PS then it probably wouldn't be an issue, but anything approaching 15-20% is enough to get annoyed at.
Also, if used car values are affected, any equity that I have built up in the car has been destroyed. I intentionally went with a conservative mileage limit when speccing the car so that I would have a car worth more than the GFMV at the end of the lease and therefore have a deposit for the next car guaranteed. Audi wont be able to change the GFMV so that puts a lot of PCP buyers in difficulty.
Silly hypothetical, but your road tax doesn't change if you get a remap, does it? So what if VW provided a fix that dropped power, but offered all existing customers a free 'performance upgrade' which was essentially a remap to bring the power back up?
If I was an owner and I was offered that, then I'd go for it.
If I was an owner and I was offered that, then I'd go for it.
Statement from Volkswagen UK, published earlier today:
New vehicles with EU6 engines currently available are not affected
All petrol models, as well as V6 TDI and V8 TDI models, unaffected
Technical solutions being developed and will be presented to responsible authorities before end of October
Volkswagen Group UK is announcing its action plan to correct the emissions characteristics of certain diesel vehicles.
In the coming days, the VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) details of affected cars will be released to retailers. In addition, a self-serve process for customers to check if their vehicle is affected will be set up.
Step by step, affected customers will be contacted, with details of a process to get their vehicles corrected in the near future. In the meantime, all vehicles are technically safe and roadworthy.
Under the action plan, the Volkswagen Group brands whose vehicles are affected will present the technical solutions and measures to relevant responsible authorities in October.
Customers with these vehicles will be kept informed over the coming weeks and months. All of the Group brands affected will set up national websites to update customers on developments.
The specific numbers of vehicles in the UK affected per brand are as follows:
Volkswagen Passenger Cars – 508,276
Audi – 393,450
SEAT – 76,773
ŠKODA – 131,569
Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles – 79,838
Volkswagen Group UK is committed to supporting its customers and its retailers through the coming weeks.
New vehicles with EU6 engines currently available are not affected
All petrol models, as well as V6 TDI and V8 TDI models, unaffected
Technical solutions being developed and will be presented to responsible authorities before end of October
Volkswagen Group UK is announcing its action plan to correct the emissions characteristics of certain diesel vehicles.
In the coming days, the VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) details of affected cars will be released to retailers. In addition, a self-serve process for customers to check if their vehicle is affected will be set up.
Step by step, affected customers will be contacted, with details of a process to get their vehicles corrected in the near future. In the meantime, all vehicles are technically safe and roadworthy.
Under the action plan, the Volkswagen Group brands whose vehicles are affected will present the technical solutions and measures to relevant responsible authorities in October.
Customers with these vehicles will be kept informed over the coming weeks and months. All of the Group brands affected will set up national websites to update customers on developments.
The specific numbers of vehicles in the UK affected per brand are as follows:
Volkswagen Passenger Cars – 508,276
Audi – 393,450
SEAT – 76,773
ŠKODA – 131,569
Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles – 79,838
Volkswagen Group UK is committed to supporting its customers and its retailers through the coming weeks.
Duncan McKay said:
I own an Audi A3 2.0TDI 150PS which is one of the vehicles that is affected. My worry, similar to the chap posting earlier, is that my car will get recalled, and a by product of sorting the emissions map will be a power drop. There must have been a reason that VAG chose to use the software only during emissions testing and not all the time. I accept that MPG is probably not affected so there is a good chance that the power will drop.
Where do I stand on this? I bought the more expensive 2.0 rather than the 1.6 because I wanted the extra power, but I could potentially have a vehicle with less power than advertised at the time of purchase. I agree that if it was 5-10PS then it probably wouldn't be an issue, but anything approaching 15-20% is enough to get annoyed at.
Also, if used car values are affected, any equity that I have built up in the car has been destroyed. I intentionally went with a conservative mileage limit when speccing the car so that I would have a car worth more than the GFMV at the end of the lease and therefore have a deposit for the next car guaranteed. Audi wont be able to change the GFMV so that puts a lot of PCP buyers in difficulty.
I would expect that fuel economy would increase and performance fall slightly. But, on the basis that you don't drive everywhere on full throttle, just press the pedal a bit harder........Where do I stand on this? I bought the more expensive 2.0 rather than the 1.6 because I wanted the extra power, but I could potentially have a vehicle with less power than advertised at the time of purchase. I agree that if it was 5-10PS then it probably wouldn't be an issue, but anything approaching 15-20% is enough to get annoyed at.
Also, if used car values are affected, any equity that I have built up in the car has been destroyed. I intentionally went with a conservative mileage limit when speccing the car so that I would have a car worth more than the GFMV at the end of the lease and therefore have a deposit for the next car guaranteed. Audi wont be able to change the GFMV so that puts a lot of PCP buyers in difficulty.
Bloke654 said:
I've got a genuine dilema on this one. I placed an order for a Passat 190 TDI R-Line Estate 3 weeks ago
.....
Genuine dilema, so thoughts would be appreciated.
It's EU6, so is not affected......
Genuine dilema, so thoughts would be appreciated.
One issue which may become a pain, although at least it won't cost you if someone else is picking up the bill, is Ad Blue equipped cars use a lot more of the stuff than VW suggested.
It was supposed to last between services, but some owners are getting as little as 200 miles per litre. Not sure of the tank size in Passat but on VAG cars generally they seem to be either 12 or 17 litres, so you could need to top up every couple of K or so.
Sorry if this has been said before and Ive missed it, but how will all these cars get recalled. VW wont know where all these cars are once they sort out the VIN numbers. Would the DVLA have to get involved and what happens if the owner refuses to get the car sorted because it might impact mpg or bhp. Could the cars that escape the recall by the current owner stay un-fixed for ever?
REALIST123 said:
I would expect that fuel economy would increase and performance fall slightly. But, on the basis that you don't drive everywhere on full throttle, just press the pedal a bit harder........
I use full throttle a fair bit, probably a couple of times a day so the point is fairly redundant...oldaudi said:
Sorry if this has been said before and Ive missed it, but how will all these cars get recalled. VW wont know where all these cars are once they sort out the VIN numbers. Would the DVLA have to get involved and what happens if the owner refuses to get the car sorted because it might impact mpg or bhp. Could the cars that escape the recall by the current owner stay un-fixed for ever?
A I understand it the recall is not safety related and so they can't force it on you albeit I suspect if you domt do it they will try and force it eg at a service just do it or try and refuse to service your car....?Back to the compensation....cars don't have a regulated sales environment so there isn't a body that can force VW to throw cash at the ambulance chasers and consultancies and lawyers. So I suspect if VW are clever they will find a way to provide enhanced trade in values for loyal customers buying new cars in the future.
Gazzab said:
Back to the compensation....cars don't have a regulated sales environment so there isn't a body that can force VW to throw cash at the ambulance chasers and consultancies and lawyers. So I suspect if VW are clever they will find a way to provide enhanced trade in values for loyal customers buying new cars in the future.
VW isn't exactly known for being customer friendly - they'll do the bare minimum they're legally required to.There won't be any "surprise and delight" offering to existing customers.
I am somewhat confused by some of the comments on this topic, specifically those querying what if anything purchasers of the affected VW Cars have lost to warrant claiming compensation. Well how about the Misrepresentation Act 1967 for starters? This act exists to protect consumers from false or fraudulent claims that induce them in to entering a contract. If it can be proved that without the cheat software, the affected vehicles cannot match the stated emmissions, BHP, or MPG, as advertised, then the owners of the vehicles would have a strong case for compensation. I am not sure that the purchaser of the vehicle would have to prove a specific loss to claim compensation, although re-sale values may well be lower, and future fuel costs may be higher. The fact is that the vehicle performance was misrepresented, presumably to make the cars more attractive to potential buyers.
madcaplaughs said:
The fact is that the vehicle performance was misrepresented, presumably to make the cars more attractive to potential buyers.
Not really - the vehicle performance in a test-that-hardly-any-consumers-gave-a-stuff-about-before-last-week was misrepresented, which isn't the same thing - quite a long way from it, actually. It's to meet govt-set limits (which if you wont meet you don't get to sell the car at all), not in itself make it more attractive to a customer. The NOx performance is the main issue in the defeat device (as I understand it)On a different note, I think the govt have in the last couple of days indicated that no motorist's tax will (whether company car tax or road fund licence or whatever the correct term is these days) change as a result of the faked results, which has to be the right answer, given that many obtained diesels because it was effectively govt policy to promote them (by taxing CO2) so the govt have effectively taken part in the fakery by not policing it properly (or at all)
It's a gift to the govt though - a great excuse for being all indignant and increasing all our taxes on cars (in the medium to longer run, even if there is nothing retrospective)
The motoring journalists are irritating though - What Car smugly pointing to their real fuel economy testing, when most of us knew long before they started that the official MPG figures were unreliable - and even very recently the journos keep highlighting official MPG figures as what the car "can do".
Anyway, it has been known for many, many years (I remember it from university in the early 80s when looking at measures of the money supply) that as soon as you make something a target, it ceases to be useful as a measure....
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