mk 5 golf R32 - misfire
Discussion
Hi all, had to get recovered by Rac yesterday after a spirited drive cold and wet conditions. I stopped for an hour then went to drive and the car was very hesitant and load so I stopped immediately. The rac guy said the spark plugs looked ok, but likely to be a coil pack. No fault codes. It's with a garage but won know until tomorrow what the diagnosis is. I've read vw replaced coil packs as a recall but not sure what years this applies to, mines a 58 plate, anyone know? I've also read over on r32oc that sometimes tesco 99ron momentum can mess with the lambda sensors causing a misfire. It was certainly running rich when I pulled over. Annoyingly I did put tesco momentum in for first time during the week. The sparks are uprated as are the injectors to account for the supercharger conversion, it was also mapped accordingly. Any ideas? Hope not too expensive. Not sure where to start bu hopefully the garage can advise.
Not sure when VW issued the coil pack recall but if you contact them, they should be able to tell you if your car had them changed.
Typically if a misfire occurs, it WILL be picked up by the ecu and stored against the engine module. It would be worth getting the car plugged into VCDS/ VAGCOM to confirm this. This should also show if a coil pack is at fault.
You say it was running rich - Tesco 99 wouldn't have caused that. That's a mapping issue, a lamdba sensor fault or MAF fault. The latter 2 would also be stored as fault codes in the engine module.
Having run my NA (but mapped) Mk5 on Tesco 99 for a few months and discussing it with arguably the best VR6 mapper in the UK, I'd recommend you stick with V-Power. That's played out on 2 different tuned FI cars I've owned for decent lengths of time too.
Was the supercharger conversion done recently? Who did it? And who mapped the ecu afterwards?
As you've moved the car on with the supercharger conversion, you should really take it back to where it was converted and have them look at it. I'd argue even a large number of VAG specialists aren't qualified to look over it now, let alone 'general' garages.
Paul
Typically if a misfire occurs, it WILL be picked up by the ecu and stored against the engine module. It would be worth getting the car plugged into VCDS/ VAGCOM to confirm this. This should also show if a coil pack is at fault.
You say it was running rich - Tesco 99 wouldn't have caused that. That's a mapping issue, a lamdba sensor fault or MAF fault. The latter 2 would also be stored as fault codes in the engine module.
Having run my NA (but mapped) Mk5 on Tesco 99 for a few months and discussing it with arguably the best VR6 mapper in the UK, I'd recommend you stick with V-Power. That's played out on 2 different tuned FI cars I've owned for decent lengths of time too.
Was the supercharger conversion done recently? Who did it? And who mapped the ecu afterwards?
As you've moved the car on with the supercharger conversion, you should really take it back to where it was converted and have them look at it. I'd argue even a large number of VAG specialists aren't qualified to look over it now, let alone 'general' garages.
Paul
Recall coils are grey. Originals are black.
Probably the MAF. Most of the supercharger conversions on these drop the MAF & Filter down into the inner arches / bumper, so they get wet and short to ground.
Best bet is to get onto R32OC and find someone in your area with VCDS so you can fault code it.
Probably the MAF. Most of the supercharger conversions on these drop the MAF & Filter down into the inner arches / bumper, so they get wet and short to ground.
Best bet is to get onto R32OC and find someone in your area with VCDS so you can fault code it.
KryptonKid09 said:
Not sure when VW issued the coil pack recall but if you contact them, they should be able to tell you if your car had them changed.
Typically if a misfire occurs, it WILL be picked up by the ecu and stored against the engine module. It would be worth getting the car plugged into VCDS/ VAGCOM to confirm this. This should also show if a coil pack is at fault.
You say it was running rich - Tesco 99 wouldn't have caused that. That's a mapping issue, a lamdba sensor fault or MAF fault. The latter 2 would also be stored as fault codes in the engine module.
Having run my NA (but mapped) Mk5 on Tesco 99 for a few months and discussing it with arguably the best VR6 mapper in the UK, I'd recommend you stick with V-Power. That's played out on 2 different tuned FI cars I've owned for decent lengths of time too.
Was the supercharger conversion done recently? Who did it? And who mapped the ecu afterwards?
As you've moved the car on with the supercharger conversion, you should really take it back to where it was converted and have them look at it. I'd argue even a large number of VAG specialists aren't qualified to look over it now, let alone 'general' garages.
Paul
Thanks for the advice Paul and Supercharged VR6. The RAC plugged it in to their computer (unsure if it was VAGcom) and it didn't show any fault codes. I will ask the garage to plug it in to VAGcom.Typically if a misfire occurs, it WILL be picked up by the ecu and stored against the engine module. It would be worth getting the car plugged into VCDS/ VAGCOM to confirm this. This should also show if a coil pack is at fault.
You say it was running rich - Tesco 99 wouldn't have caused that. That's a mapping issue, a lamdba sensor fault or MAF fault. The latter 2 would also be stored as fault codes in the engine module.
Having run my NA (but mapped) Mk5 on Tesco 99 for a few months and discussing it with arguably the best VR6 mapper in the UK, I'd recommend you stick with V-Power. That's played out on 2 different tuned FI cars I've owned for decent lengths of time too.
Was the supercharger conversion done recently? Who did it? And who mapped the ecu afterwards?
As you've moved the car on with the supercharger conversion, you should really take it back to where it was converted and have them look at it. I'd argue even a large number of VAG specialists aren't qualified to look over it now, let alone 'general' garages.
Paul
The supercharger was done by Turner Race Developments in Stroud, Glous along with suspension, exhaust and brakes by previous owner. The conversion was done last April and I believe there is a 12 month warranty (need to check) and it was mapped by TRD after the work - they have done many many VR6 conversions in the UK and very reputable - so im told. It was always my intention to take it to TRD for servicing and other maintenance, and still is going forward.
Unfortunately on Saturday afternoon I was too far for RAC to take me and needed to get it somewhere that was close and still open for me to explain the issues. I have however, emailed Dan at TRD , explained the situation and he has been very helpful. He said the ignition coils fail randomly and its ok to replace just the one, providing it a genuine VW coil and not an imitation one from Euro car parts etc. To replace all 6 is about £250. He said even if the coils were replaced under a recall, they don't last forever. He also said....don't ever put Tesco 99 ron in again, its basically s
te fuel with contaminates which can damage injectors, fuel pump, bores etc and to only use Shell V Power or BP Ultimate / Esso 97 ron as a back up. Doh! I had been running V power and BP before the weekend without issue. I presumed 99 Ron would be ok as I put it into my previous Supercharged Mini Cooper S and Mk 5 GTI and they ran fine. TRD advised the garage should drain the remaining Tesco momentum out and fill it with fresh V power. Still waiting for the RAC approved garage to call me back with an update, I have relayed the above to them. Will bare the Lambda and MAF in mind, sounds £££, but Shirley if the car isn't firing on all 6 cylinders, there will be a lot of unburnt fuel, hence rich smell when I pulled over? Tried to join R32OC but having problems getting account set up at the moment.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Recall coils are grey. Originals are black.
Probably the MAF. Most of the supercharger conversions on these drop the MAF & Filter down into the inner arches / bumper, so they get wet and short to ground.
I'm more inclined to go with this than add to anymore supermarket fuel is crap discussions.Probably the MAF. Most of the supercharger conversions on these drop the MAF & Filter down into the inner arches / bumper, so they get wet and short to ground.
aka_kerrly said:
I'm more inclined to go with this than add to anymore supermarket fuel is crap discussions.
I'd agree.The the information you got is incorrect regarding Tesco 99. I doesn't perform as well as V-Power (not allowing as much timing advance and results in lower MPG) but that's where the inadequacies end.
Be mindful of any advice you get from the users of the R32OC. There's a large number of clowns among them and the numbers appear to be growing...
If you're anywhere near South Northamptonshire, I have VCDS and would be happy to help you out.
Paul
Edited by KryptonKid09 on Tuesday 12th January 10:08
Edited by KryptonKid09 on Tuesday 12th January 10:10
Ah OK, I'm glad you mentioned the S/C kit in question. The TRD kit places the MAF downstream of the charger (see pic below), which definitely helps reduce water ingress but as the filter is still close to the ground (assumption - having not seen it in the flesh), there is a chance a bit of water could get up there and upset the MAF.
VAG-COM would definitely report a dodgy MAF and consequently throw the ABS/ESP/TC & Engine lights up on the dash.
Coils are not monitored by the ECU, only misfires. If the ECU sees repetitive misfires on the same cylinder, it will stick the dash light on. Since there are no fault codes, or warning lights, I think what ever it was temporarily upset the engine but not for long enough for the ECU to determine what exactly.
Did it feel like a single cylinder misfire, or just extremely gutless when putting your foot down, like all 6 cyls weren't doing a lot? How much fuel left in the tank when it happened? You know, there is a chance you put crap fuel in, it does happen. It's not unheard of for a bit of water in the underground tanks to get sucked up into YOUR tank. It's happened to me once or twice.
VAG-COM would definitely report a dodgy MAF and consequently throw the ABS/ESP/TC & Engine lights up on the dash.
Coils are not monitored by the ECU, only misfires. If the ECU sees repetitive misfires on the same cylinder, it will stick the dash light on. Since there are no fault codes, or warning lights, I think what ever it was temporarily upset the engine but not for long enough for the ECU to determine what exactly.
Did it feel like a single cylinder misfire, or just extremely gutless when putting your foot down, like all 6 cyls weren't doing a lot? How much fuel left in the tank when it happened? You know, there is a chance you put crap fuel in, it does happen. It's not unheard of for a bit of water in the underground tanks to get sucked up into YOUR tank. It's happened to me once or twice.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 12th January 10:16
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Ah OK, I'm glad you mentioned the S/C kit in question. The TRD kit places the MAF downstream of the charger (see pic below), which definitely helps reduce water ingress but as the filter is still close to the ground (assumption - having not seen it in the flesh), there is a chance a bit of water could get up there and upset the MAF.
VAG-COM would definitely report a dodgy MAF and consequently throw the ABS/ESP/TC & Engine lights up on the dash.
Coils are not monitored by the ECU, only misfires. If the ECU sees repetitive misfires on the same cylinder, it will stick the dash light on. Since there are no fault codes, or warning lights, I think what ever it was temporarily upset the engine but not for long enough for the ECU to determine what exactly.
Did it feel like a single cylinder misfire, or just extremely gutless when putting your foot down, like all 6 cyls weren't doing a lot?
This is indeed how my engine looks ^^VAG-COM would definitely report a dodgy MAF and consequently throw the ABS/ESP/TC & Engine lights up on the dash.
Coils are not monitored by the ECU, only misfires. If the ECU sees repetitive misfires on the same cylinder, it will stick the dash light on. Since there are no fault codes, or warning lights, I think what ever it was temporarily upset the engine but not for long enough for the ECU to determine what exactly.
Did it feel like a single cylinder misfire, or just extremely gutless when putting your foot down, like all 6 cyls weren't doing a lot?
Just heard from the garage, they plugged it in to VAGcom and it threw up misfire on cylinder no 1, so they are replacing the ignition coil, draining fuel and filling with V power just in case. Appreciate what others are saying about Tesco 99 Ron being ok, but for the sake of it, im not taking the chance. At idle, it didn't sound any different, only when you pressed the accelerator did it sound like it was running on 5. It was very juddery, sluggish and hesitant, I only drove for 500m before pulling over somewhere safe. The RAC commented that at idle, the engine was noticeably shaking on its mounts which pointed to it being a cylinder down.
Will let you know how I get on later when I pick up, got to drive back from Newbury to Oxford so should be a decent test to see if its back to normal. Thanks again for your replies and offer to use software.
Definitely a coil in that case. A cheap fix!
I would get them to check the integrity of the coil connector whilst they've got it. Reason being, they are tricky to disconnect unless you know how to do it properly. A lot of people just go at them with a screw driver and break the tab off. Then the little seal inside the connector doesn't function properly, allowing water in, which can cause a short.
I would get them to check the integrity of the coil connector whilst they've got it. Reason being, they are tricky to disconnect unless you know how to do it properly. A lot of people just go at them with a screw driver and break the tab off. Then the little seal inside the connector doesn't function properly, allowing water in, which can cause a short.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
the filter is still close to the ground (assumption - having not seen it in the flesh),
The location of the TRD rotrex install certainly helps to make a neater package and avoids the charger being low down in the inner arch but I believe the air filter still lives relatively low in the engine bay. I have seen one Rotrex'd R32 owner who made a box to collect air an moved the filter further up to avoid the potential for sucking up water. Some people have even modified the inner arches by cutting slots to allow air to flow through which also means in wet weather water can indeed end up saturating the air filter...not cool.
This is an example of an install with the MAF an air filter barely an inch of so higher than the lower suspension arms, this would scare me!
Well that is scary aka kerrly ^^^ when the problem occurred it was a very wet day an whilst I didn't drive through any deep water it was difficult to avoid every single puddle. Went to collect the car today and the coil which threw up the fault had been replaced and cleared it, but it was still running exactly the same. What is really concerning me is that it smelt like it was running rich still and the mechanic said when it was left to idle in th workshop no they moved it out, there wa a bit of blue smoke from the exhausts... despite them draining the tank and putting in in 10 litres of v power, it was almost empty and we'll into the red when I got to it, so took it to the nearest filling station and put half tank of super in. Made no difference so left it with them. It sounds and drives like it is only running on 5 cylinders. My plan is to call TRD in the morning and get them to speak to the garage to give guidance. Really concerned it's major. 
Running rich could be a issue with the lambda sensor or temp sensor so I wouldn't panic.
Ideally it would be good to get the car connected up to VCDS on a laptop an go for a drive so that you can monitor the ecu/engine info more accurately rather than simply looking for logged error codes.
Either way I'm sure Dan at TRD will be more than give you a few pointers.
Ideally it would be good to get the car connected up to VCDS on a laptop an go for a drive so that you can monitor the ecu/engine info more accurately rather than simply looking for logged error codes.
Either way I'm sure Dan at TRD will be more than give you a few pointers.
si_xsi said:
But don't understand why lambda or temp sensor wouldn't come up as a fault. Will see if the garage can take out for a drive with it plugged into vcds, but seriously considering getting the car recovered back to Dan at TRD.
Ha a lambda go on my A3 3.2, they wont throw up a fault code as they slow down their reaction to changes is O2 level rather than just fail. You can unplug the connectors and see if the misfires go (it should go onto a 'safety map' without them connected)
Yeah my old Supercharged VR6 Corrado's air filter was like that pic. It did indeed suck water in and blew the MAF. I think I got through 4 or 5 of the things before giving up and going turbo instead. TRD's install shows the MAF in the engine bay though.
I'm slightly concerned there's still a misfire on one cylinder after a new coil. Was the sparkplug replaced as well? I would get a compression test done on that cylinder. Should be around 190psi if it's a standard block.
How much boost is it running and has the compression ratio been reduced with a head spacer?
I'm slightly concerned there's still a misfire on one cylinder after a new coil. Was the sparkplug replaced as well? I would get a compression test done on that cylinder. Should be around 190psi if it's a standard block.
How much boost is it running and has the compression ratio been reduced with a head spacer?
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Wednesday 13th January 11:04
So I bit the bullet and paid for the car to be recovered to trd this avo, Dan will take a look and let me know. The maf is higher up thankfully, but the air has been relocated lower down due to the Supercharged taking up the standard filters position. Dan advised it should be ok on normal wet roads and puddles, and that it would only be water up to lower bumper level which could cause problems. I don't recall going through anything near that depth.
The garage didn't replace the spark plug, they were done less than 6k miles ago so should be OK. Fingers crossed it's a simple fix as the inconvenience of not having a car for work is becoming frustrating. My first experience of owning a modified car is not what I anticipated!! Thanks all for the input, will keep you posted.
The garage didn't replace the spark plug, they were done less than 6k miles ago so should be OK. Fingers crossed it's a simple fix as the inconvenience of not having a car for work is becoming frustrating. My first experience of owning a modified car is not what I anticipated!! Thanks all for the input, will keep you posted.
Yeah 0.5 bar, or 7 psi.
Having a modified car as a daily for work can be a nightmare! Been there and got several T shirts!
My best breakdown has to be when I ignorantly allowed the turbo oil feed line to rest on the exhaust manifold. A few days and several journeys later, it eventually ruptured on the way to work and sprayed hot oil everywhere. 1 x lovely engine fire that I had extinguish by quickly pulling over and throwing puddle water onto the engine. It's during situations like that you come to appreciate the reason why OEMs do things the way they do
Anyway, keep us posted! I really hope it's not a mechanical issue on that cylinder.
Having a modified car as a daily for work can be a nightmare! Been there and got several T shirts!
My best breakdown has to be when I ignorantly allowed the turbo oil feed line to rest on the exhaust manifold. A few days and several journeys later, it eventually ruptured on the way to work and sprayed hot oil everywhere. 1 x lovely engine fire that I had extinguish by quickly pulling over and throwing puddle water onto the engine. It's during situations like that you come to appreciate the reason why OEMs do things the way they do
Anyway, keep us posted! I really hope it's not a mechanical issue on that cylinder.
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