VW Golf MK4 R32
Discussion
Hi All,
I've recently purchased a mk4 R32. It seems my speedo is reading out (circa 10mph) at 60/70mph. Now i bought the car with a well known timing chain fault code. It was at a really good price so decided to take a punt on it with the possibility of having to replace the timing chains. The chains have been done approx 30k ago which i have proof of, its also had many thousands of pounds spent on it in the past going by the volume of receipts i have. I'm still getting the well known timing chain fault code though.
Initially i thought the car felt down on power, after owning a couple of R32's in the past i felt it was down on power after 4,000RPM. After driving it some more though i dont actually think it is down on power i think the speedo is reading out. I know these cars are not "fast" and after owning a number of quicker cars after my previous R32 i've maybe forgotten the characteristics of the VR6 lump.
I have the car booked in with my VW dealer in a couple of weeks to get the car on VAGCOM to see whats going on with this timing chain fault code. I'm wondering if anyone would know why the speedo could be slightly out? Its the standard wheels and tyres fitted.
I've recently purchased a mk4 R32. It seems my speedo is reading out (circa 10mph) at 60/70mph. Now i bought the car with a well known timing chain fault code. It was at a really good price so decided to take a punt on it with the possibility of having to replace the timing chains. The chains have been done approx 30k ago which i have proof of, its also had many thousands of pounds spent on it in the past going by the volume of receipts i have. I'm still getting the well known timing chain fault code though.
Initially i thought the car felt down on power, after owning a couple of R32's in the past i felt it was down on power after 4,000RPM. After driving it some more though i dont actually think it is down on power i think the speedo is reading out. I know these cars are not "fast" and after owning a number of quicker cars after my previous R32 i've maybe forgotten the characteristics of the VR6 lump.
I have the car booked in with my VW dealer in a couple of weeks to get the car on VAGCOM to see whats going on with this timing chain fault code. I'm wondering if anyone would know why the speedo could be slightly out? Its the standard wheels and tyres fitted.
On the R32 the speed is picked up from a sensor in the gear box, and fed to the clocks,as you are getting a reading that suggests the sensor is ok.
The speed is calculated in the clocks, there is a calibration factor that can be changed using VCDS/VAG-COM, but if the clocks are original to the car it shouldn't need changing.
If the clocks have been changed at any time then maybe the calibration factor might be incorrect. Are they genuine R32 clocks i.e. have the R32 on them?
It's not uncommon for the MFD display to fail so if they don't have the logo on them then they could have been taken from another model so that could be the issue.
The speed is calculated in the clocks, there is a calibration factor that can be changed using VCDS/VAG-COM, but if the clocks are original to the car it shouldn't need changing.
If the clocks have been changed at any time then maybe the calibration factor might be incorrect. Are they genuine R32 clocks i.e. have the R32 on them?
It's not uncommon for the MFD display to fail so if they don't have the logo on them then they could have been taken from another model so that could be the issue.
I'm wondering if anyone can help.
I have had the car on VCDS to measure the 209 and 208 blocks. I'm getting -3 in the 208 measuring block but nothing in the 209. The timing chains have been replaced 25/30k ago but what would be the reason for no reading on the 209? Faulty cam variator? I know some folk change these when renewing the chains but i don't think thats been the case with this one.
Ive read online that they can sometimes stick the variators? I have had a specialist check various things (sensors etc) Can the solenoids be checked for the VVT?
I have had the car on VCDS to measure the 209 and 208 blocks. I'm getting -3 in the 208 measuring block but nothing in the 209. The timing chains have been replaced 25/30k ago but what would be the reason for no reading on the 209? Faulty cam variator? I know some folk change these when renewing the chains but i don't think thats been the case with this one.
Ive read online that they can sometimes stick the variators? I have had a specialist check various things (sensors etc) Can the solenoids be checked for the VVT?
Edited by Paul-g8fwk on Sunday 13th August 14:06
By nothing in block 209 do you mean a reading of 0 or it's blank?
Was the reading done at idle, as I think the only way to get a true reading is to log the values on a road test.
Are there any fault codes?
Whst's the service history of the car like i.e. did it get annual oil changes or was it on "long life" servicing? as if the oil changes weren't regular it is likely something could be gummed up.
I have had my MKIV R32 since it was 3 years old and always got the oil changed every year, it's just about to hit 150k and it's still on the original timing chains and guides with 0 issues plus it's been running twice the stock power for the last 80k.
If it's well maintained the VR6 is a strong motor as it was originally supposed to be a diesel....
Was the reading done at idle, as I think the only way to get a true reading is to log the values on a road test.
Are there any fault codes?
Whst's the service history of the car like i.e. did it get annual oil changes or was it on "long life" servicing? as if the oil changes weren't regular it is likely something could be gummed up.
I have had my MKIV R32 since it was 3 years old and always got the oil changed every year, it's just about to hit 150k and it's still on the original timing chains and guides with 0 issues plus it's been running twice the stock power for the last 80k.
If it's well maintained the VR6 is a strong motor as it was originally supposed to be a diesel....
No reading in 209 either means there is no signal or the cam > crank correlation is so far off, it literally has no position angle to offer. i.e. the timing is miles off.
I take it the exhaust and intake phaser solenoid plugs weren't switched round? That was super common on early MK4s after a chain job, so VW made the connectors different colours in the MK5.
If no wiring fault and the sensors are OK, then you can only assume the timing is off. People forgetting to fully retard the cam phasers before fitting the chain is common, and a lot of people also don't time up the intermediate shaft sprocket properly either, wrongly assuming it's only function is to spin the oil pump, so it's timing angle doesn't matter.
I take it the exhaust and intake phaser solenoid plugs weren't switched round? That was super common on early MK4s after a chain job, so VW made the connectors different colours in the MK5.
If no wiring fault and the sensors are OK, then you can only assume the timing is off. People forgetting to fully retard the cam phasers before fitting the chain is common, and a lot of people also don't time up the intermediate shaft sprocket properly either, wrongly assuming it's only function is to spin the oil pump, so it's timing angle doesn't matter.
Update...
Well i bit the bullet and decided to renew the timing chains. My chains had indeed stretched as they were non genuine. I replaced with genuine VW parts. I also had a faulty VVT solenoid so these were both replaced.
The car drives so much better now pulls really well but there is a catch. I'm still getting a timing fault flag up for incorrect corelation. There is still no reading in the 209 measuring block on VCDS. Everything has been renewed and timed up correctly as i say the car drives really really well.
I'm kind of stumped now with what could be causing it. I've replaced the cam sensors as well but doesnt seem to make a difference.
Thinking it could be an ECU issue?
Well i bit the bullet and decided to renew the timing chains. My chains had indeed stretched as they were non genuine. I replaced with genuine VW parts. I also had a faulty VVT solenoid so these were both replaced.
The car drives so much better now pulls really well but there is a catch. I'm still getting a timing fault flag up for incorrect corelation. There is still no reading in the 209 measuring block on VCDS. Everything has been renewed and timed up correctly as i say the car drives really really well.
I'm kind of stumped now with what could be causing it. I've replaced the cam sensors as well but doesnt seem to make a difference.
Thinking it could be an ECU issue?
Paul-g8fwk said:
Everything has been renewed and timed up correctly as i say the car drives really really well.
I'm kind of stumped now with what could be causing it. I've replaced the cam sensors as well but doesnt seem to make a difference.
Thinking it could be an ECU issue?
I'd say it hasn't been timed correctly. As already stated, if there's no reading on channel 209, the ECU can't correlate the crank position.I'm kind of stumped now with what could be causing it. I've replaced the cam sensors as well but doesnt seem to make a difference.
Thinking it could be an ECU issue?
Was the intermediate shaft set correctly and did you count 16 chain rollers between the cam sprocket alignment marks?
Reasons have already been given for this issue.
The only time I've seen this issue caused by and ECU was when someone tried to run the incorrect ECU. E.g. trying to run a BUB with a BDB ECU. Things like DBW pedals, injectors and Cam sensors are different and anything the ECU can't see, is shown as blank in VCDS.
rottenegg said:
I'd say it hasn't been timed correctly. As already stated, if there's no reading on channel 209, the ECU can't correlate the crank position.
Was the intermediate shaft set correctly and did you count 16 chain rollers between the cam sprocket alignment marks?
Reasons have already been given for this issue.
The only time I've seen this issue caused by and ECU was when someone tried to run the incorrect ECU. E.g. trying to run a BUB with a BDB ECU. Things like DBW pedals, injectors and Cam sensors are different and anything the ECU can't see, is shown as blank in VCDS.
Yes 16 chain rollers between the alignment marks. As far as i'm aware the intermediate shaft was set correctly as i say the car drives night and day from what it did.Was the intermediate shaft set correctly and did you count 16 chain rollers between the cam sprocket alignment marks?
Reasons have already been given for this issue.
The only time I've seen this issue caused by and ECU was when someone tried to run the incorrect ECU. E.g. trying to run a BUB with a BDB ECU. Things like DBW pedals, injectors and Cam sensors are different and anything the ECU can't see, is shown as blank in VCDS.
Would the car drive well if it was off on the timing? Is there scope for these engines to jump on the timing?
PaulMoVR6 said:
rottenegg said:
I'd say it hasn't been timed correctly. As already stated, if there's no reading on channel 209, the ECU can't correlate the crank position.
Was the intermediate shaft set correctly and did you count 16 chain rollers between the cam sprocket alignment marks?
Reasons have already been given for this issue.
The only time I've seen this issue caused by and ECU was when someone tried to run the incorrect ECU. E.g. trying to run a BUB with a BDB ECU. Things like DBW pedals, injectors and Cam sensors are different and anything the ECU can't see, is shown as blank in VCDS.
Yes 16 chain rollers between the alignment marks. As far as i'm aware the intermediate shaft was set correctly as i say the car drives night and day from what it did.Was the intermediate shaft set correctly and did you count 16 chain rollers between the cam sprocket alignment marks?
Reasons have already been given for this issue.
The only time I've seen this issue caused by and ECU was when someone tried to run the incorrect ECU. E.g. trying to run a BUB with a BDB ECU. Things like DBW pedals, injectors and Cam sensors are different and anything the ECU can't see, is shown as blank in VCDS.
Would the car drive well if it was off on the timing? Is there scope for these engines to jump on the timing?
Yeah it will drive a lot better as the intake cam timing is more than likely correct. The exhaust VVT is only used as part of EGR. From memory, you can be 2-3 teeth off on the exhaust cam without it affecting how it drives. I think it was 4 teeth off and VCDS can't see it anymore.
Nah, R32s never jump teeth. That generally only happened on the old 12V engines with chain tensioners that weren't sprung loaded, and even then it was a specific thing that caused it.....e.g. a back fire on start up if the tensioner had no oil pressure in it.
rottenegg said:
Was the intake VVT definitely put back to it's home position before fitting the chain? They are not sprung loaded like some other engines. A common mistake was folk setting up the new chain with the intake VVT fully advanced. I can't remember if the exhaust VVT is sprung loaded or not, but it only moves 11 degrees anyway, vs the intake's 45.
Yeah it will drive a lot better as the intake cam timing is more than likely correct. The exhaust VVT is only used as part of EGR. From memory, you can be 2-3 teeth off on the exhaust cam without it affecting how it drives. I think it was 4 teeth off and VCDS can't see it anymore.
Nah, R32s never jump teeth. That generally only happened on the old 12V engines with chain tensioners that weren't sprung loaded, and even then it was a specific thing that caused it.....e.g. a back fire on start up if the tensioner had no oil pressure in it.
Yes it was fully returned to the home position before refitting. The VVT's were stripped and fully cleaned prior to refitting they were moving freely and free of any gugned up oil etc. Yes I have read that before that the intake has more movement than the exhaust VVT.Yeah it will drive a lot better as the intake cam timing is more than likely correct. The exhaust VVT is only used as part of EGR. From memory, you can be 2-3 teeth off on the exhaust cam without it affecting how it drives. I think it was 4 teeth off and VCDS can't see it anymore.
Nah, R32s never jump teeth. That generally only happened on the old 12V engines with chain tensioners that weren't sprung loaded, and even then it was a specific thing that caused it.....e.g. a back fire on start up if the tensioner had no oil pressure in it.
Say If it was 4 teeth off on the timing would it drive as well as it does? That's the weird thing as why we were thinking it was more an ECU issue. Car pulls really well below 4,000RPM, there is then a slight flat spot at 4,000RPM which from my memory my old MK5 R32 done the same it then pulls really well up towards the redline. It seems the EML has been messed with to hide the original timing fault which is why we thought someone has potentially messed around with the ECU.
PaulMoVR6 said:
rottenegg said:
Was the intake VVT definitely put back to it's home position before fitting the chain? They are not sprung loaded like some other engines. A common mistake was folk setting up the new chain with the intake VVT fully advanced. I can't remember if the exhaust VVT is sprung loaded or not, but it only moves 11 degrees anyway, vs the intake's 45.
Yeah it will drive a lot better as the intake cam timing is more than likely correct. The exhaust VVT is only used as part of EGR. From memory, you can be 2-3 teeth off on the exhaust cam without it affecting how it drives. I think it was 4 teeth off and VCDS can't see it anymore.
Nah, R32s never jump teeth. That generally only happened on the old 12V engines with chain tensioners that weren't sprung loaded, and even then it was a specific thing that caused it.....e.g. a back fire on start up if the tensioner had no oil pressure in it.
Yes it was fully returned to the home position before refitting. The VVT's were stripped and fully cleaned prior to refitting they were moving freely and free of any gugned up oil etc. Yes I have read that before that the intake has more movement than the exhaust VVT.Yeah it will drive a lot better as the intake cam timing is more than likely correct. The exhaust VVT is only used as part of EGR. From memory, you can be 2-3 teeth off on the exhaust cam without it affecting how it drives. I think it was 4 teeth off and VCDS can't see it anymore.
Nah, R32s never jump teeth. That generally only happened on the old 12V engines with chain tensioners that weren't sprung loaded, and even then it was a specific thing that caused it.....e.g. a back fire on start up if the tensioner had no oil pressure in it.
Say If it was 4 teeth off on the timing would it drive as well as it does? That's the weird thing as why we were thinking it was more an ECU issue. Car pulls really well below 4,000RPM, there is then a slight flat spot at 4,000RPM which from my memory my old MK5 R32 done the same it then pulls really well up towards the redline. It seems the EML has been messed with to hide the original timing fault which is why we thought someone has potentially messed around with the ECU.
I think VW set the timing drift limit to +/- 8 degrees from memory, and then it's time for a new chain. I can't remember how many teeth equates to how many degrees but 3-4 seems about right. I'm not saying the timing is 100% definitely off, and it seems like you've been diligent, just an avenue to explore. From what you've said, it does seem like it could also be an electrical or ECU issue.
Maybe if someone disabled EGR, that might stop the ECU looking for the exhaust cam? But in the MK4, it also used an auxillary air pump to blast air over the cats during warm up. MK5s just used the exhaust cam only. Maybe try flashing the ECU back to stock?
rottenegg said:
It's been ages since I've timed an R32, but from memory, yep, it's quite tolerant engine for timing drift. It would run fine up to +/- 12 degrees off target, and owners would only know there was a problem when the ECU threw an EML because it couldn't see the cams anymore, and went into limp mode.
I think VW set the timing drift limit to +/- 8 degrees from memory, and then it's time for a new chain. I can't remember how many teeth equates to how many degrees but 3-4 seems about right. I'm not saying the timing is 100% definitely off, and it seems like you've been diligent, just an avenue to explore. From what you've said, it does seem like it could also be an electrical or ECU issue.
Maybe if someone disabled EGR, that might stop the ECU looking for the exhaust cam? But in the MK4, it also used an auxillary air pump to blast air over the cats during warm up. MK5s just used the exhaust cam only. Maybe try flashing the ECU back to stock?
Funny you should mention the cold start with the auxilary pump. Sometimes the car will idle higher on a cold start- sometimes it doesn't. All avenues relating to the timing have either been fully cleaned out or replaced with genuine VW parts. We are really struggling to see how the timing would be off. The car has an aftermarket downpipe and decat pipe fitted (not normally my cup of tea) so i'm not sure is it running a crap map to try and hide the initial timing fault and also the aftermarket exhuast components.I think VW set the timing drift limit to +/- 8 degrees from memory, and then it's time for a new chain. I can't remember how many teeth equates to how many degrees but 3-4 seems about right. I'm not saying the timing is 100% definitely off, and it seems like you've been diligent, just an avenue to explore. From what you've said, it does seem like it could also be an electrical or ECU issue.
Maybe if someone disabled EGR, that might stop the ECU looking for the exhaust cam? But in the MK4, it also used an auxillary air pump to blast air over the cats during warm up. MK5s just used the exhaust cam only. Maybe try flashing the ECU back to stock?
My plan was to flash the ECU back to stock to see if that will clear it. I'm not sure can the Cam postion sensors be "reset"? They were also swapped out for genuine sensors.
PaulMoVR6 said:
rottenegg said:
It's been ages since I've timed an R32, but from memory, yep, it's quite tolerant engine for timing drift. It would run fine up to +/- 12 degrees off target, and owners would only know there was a problem when the ECU threw an EML because it couldn't see the cams anymore, and went into limp mode.
I think VW set the timing drift limit to +/- 8 degrees from memory, and then it's time for a new chain. I can't remember how many teeth equates to how many degrees but 3-4 seems about right. I'm not saying the timing is 100% definitely off, and it seems like you've been diligent, just an avenue to explore. From what you've said, it does seem like it could also be an electrical or ECU issue.
Maybe if someone disabled EGR, that might stop the ECU looking for the exhaust cam? But in the MK4, it also used an auxillary air pump to blast air over the cats during warm up. MK5s just used the exhaust cam only. Maybe try flashing the ECU back to stock?
Funny you should mention the cold start with the auxilary pump. Sometimes the car will idle higher on a cold start- sometimes it doesn't. All avenues relating to the timing have either been fully cleaned out or replaced with genuine VW parts. We are really struggling to see how the timing would be off. The car has an aftermarket downpipe and decat pipe fitted (not normally my cup of tea) so i'm not sure is it running a crap map to try and hide the initial timing fault and also the aftermarket exhuast components.I think VW set the timing drift limit to +/- 8 degrees from memory, and then it's time for a new chain. I can't remember how many teeth equates to how many degrees but 3-4 seems about right. I'm not saying the timing is 100% definitely off, and it seems like you've been diligent, just an avenue to explore. From what you've said, it does seem like it could also be an electrical or ECU issue.
Maybe if someone disabled EGR, that might stop the ECU looking for the exhaust cam? But in the MK4, it also used an auxillary air pump to blast air over the cats during warm up. MK5s just used the exhaust cam only. Maybe try flashing the ECU back to stock?
My plan was to flash the ECU back to stock to see if that will clear it. I'm not sure can the Cam postion sensors be "reset"? They were also swapped out for genuine sensors.
So in measuring blocks 208 and 209, 209 is blank but what number do you see in 208? Normally you see +/- 2 or 3KW after a change job, you rarely see them at 0KW, which is fine.
R32s really don't like aftermarket downpipes and or removal of the cats, or even sports cats. It killed the bottom end torque on mine, even after being remapped to code out the downstream O2 sensors. If you can, I would refit standard downpipes and flash it back to stock to get back to a standard baseline.
It's a puzzler for sure. The only thing I can think of electrically that was common on MK4s was swapping the VVT solenoid plugs over accidentally. On the MK5 they made the exhaust cam solenoid connector brown to make it a clearer distinction between the two. The consequence of swapping the plugs over was the ECU would over advance the exhaust cam as it thinks it's the intake one.
Edited by rottenegg on Friday 12th April 10:05
rottenegg said:
Yeah it's based on ambient temp, air density and coolant temp. Mine used to do the fast idle thing on warmer days, but rarely did on cold days.
So in measuring blocks 208 and 209, 209 is blank but what number do you see in 208? Normally you see +/- 2 or 3KW after a change job, you rarely see them at 0KW, which is fine.
R32s really don't like aftermarket downpipes and or removal of the cats, or even sports cats. It killed the bottom end torque on mine, even after being remapped to code out the downstream O2 sensors. If you can, I would refit standard downpipes and flash it back to stock to get back to a standard baseline.
It's a puzzler for sure. The only thing I can think of electrically that was common on MK4s was swapping the VVT solenoid plugs over accidentally. On the MK5 they made the exhaust cam solenoid connector brown to make it a clearer distinction between the two. The consequence of swapping the plugs over was the ECU would over advance the exhaust cam as it thinks it's the intake one.
I'm also getting a regular fault code pop up for the coolant temp sensor which causes the car to idle rough when cold. There looks like there was an aftermarket one fitted previously. I have ordered a genuine VW one it should be with me today so ill get that fitted this weekend.So in measuring blocks 208 and 209, 209 is blank but what number do you see in 208? Normally you see +/- 2 or 3KW after a change job, you rarely see them at 0KW, which is fine.
R32s really don't like aftermarket downpipes and or removal of the cats, or even sports cats. It killed the bottom end torque on mine, even after being remapped to code out the downstream O2 sensors. If you can, I would refit standard downpipes and flash it back to stock to get back to a standard baseline.
It's a puzzler for sure. The only thing I can think of electrically that was common on MK4s was swapping the VVT solenoid plugs over accidentally. On the MK5 they made the exhaust cam solenoid connector brown to make it a clearer distinction between the two. The consequence of swapping the plugs over was the ECU would over advance the exhaust cam as it thinks it's the intake one.
Edited by rottenegg on Friday 12th April 10:05
I'm sure the garage stated it was now at 0kw in the 208 but with the referencing to the measuring blocks 90/91 its well within spec. Ill be honest i'm not clued up on the readings etc and what they mean. I do have some photos taken from VCDS though.
Yes its a weird one for sure. The car drives perfectly fine i was surprised how well it pulled particularly under say 3500RPM.
PaulMoVR6 said:
I'm also getting a regular fault code pop up for the coolant temp sensor which causes the car to idle rough when cold. There looks like there was an aftermarket one fitted previously. I have ordered a genuine VW one it should be with me today so ill get that fitted this weekend.
I'm sure the garage stated it was now at 0kw in the 208 but with the referencing to the measuring blocks 90/91 its well within spec. Ill be honest i'm not clued up on the readings etc and what they mean. I do have some photos taken from VCDS though.
Yes its a weird one for sure. The car drives perfectly fine i was surprised how well it pulled particularly under say 3500RPM.
Yep, get your genuine one in there. They were like £45 odd when I last did one, hence why people fitted £10 AutoDOC pattern ones instead.I'm sure the garage stated it was now at 0kw in the 208 but with the referencing to the measuring blocks 90/91 its well within spec. Ill be honest i'm not clued up on the readings etc and what they mean. I do have some photos taken from VCDS though.
Yes its a weird one for sure. The car drives perfectly fine i was surprised how well it pulled particularly under say 3500RPM.
208 (intake) and 209 (exhaust) shows where the ECU thinks the cams are in relation to crank position, but the numbers in 91/92 are fine. So all good there.
So long as it's driving OK, that's the main thing. As mentioned previously, the exhaust cam phasing has no impact on performance. It's just annoying it's not as it should be in terms of sensor readings. You'll have to let us know if you get to the bottom of it!
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