Strange top end rattle?

[TVR Beaver]

fastandcurious said:

My 500 does it now after a full engine rebuild. Exactly as described just before settling at tickover. Interesting I never noticed it before the rebuild and during the first 1000 miles of running in whilst running on mineral oil. Only since changing to 10W40 semi.
Andy at APM Automotive says it's nothing to worry about and unless it gets louder, that's good enough for me.

It's very strange.. I know guy's who have changed oil from Fully Synthetic to mineral oil and back again... and it's made no change... There is a theory about bottom end clearances letting oil out... and hydraulic adjusters bleading down etc...

What work did you have done at the re-build?.. new pistons etc... and what cam / lifters are you running.. any idea?..

[red griff roger]

Marty V8 said:

I think Hexham HC are spot on - they all do that sir.

Mine has rattled for years now, but unlike Beaver, I don't pull it apart everytime it makes an odd noise.

[TVR Beaver]

red griff roger said:

Mine has rattled for years now, but unlike Beaver, I don't pull it apart everytime it makes an odd noise.

Curiosity and the willingness to learn… that’s what separates us from the Chimps you know

What else better to do on a night when your tanks empty and you just can’t justify the forth fill-up that week!!

There must be a common denominator here.. why half do and half don’t… and why do they start even after a full re-build with all new bit’s (where as the old bits didn’t do it)

There must be an answer !!


Anyway.. why you changed your name.. I thought it was 'Roger Red Griff' before... you can't get anything past me!!

Edited by TVR Beaver on Thursday 4th August 17:50

[fastandcurious]

TVR Beaver said:

It's very strange.. I know guy's who have changed oil from Fully Synthetic to mineral oil and back again... and it's made no change... There is a theory about bottom end clearances letting oil out... and hydraulic adjusters bleading down etc...

What work did you have done at the re-build?.. new pistons etc... and what cam / lifters are you running.. any idea?..

It went in for a cam change, but because the centre cam bearing had slipped round in the block, the sump had to be dropped. At that point I thought "In for a penny in for a pound". Best get it sorted. Crankshaft reground, Block line honed. Pistons were ok so bores were honed and new rings fitted, new oil pump, timing chain and sprockets, new mains and ends, new cam (TVR Power 885)new followers, heads off, cleaned up with new exhaust valves and stem seals. Followed by a removal of pre cats and a general tidy up under the bonnet.

[Sam Gamgee]

Always made this noise, had it checked, full rebuild (not in my ownership), new cam etc....had it checked by dealer (few years back, lol) plus three different specialists.....TADS I guess, no problem with engine etc, much like what has already been said, I guess.!

Dave.

[TVR Beaver]

Could this be our rattle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbCEYmtLPoQ

It does it even when you load the thing and give it a bit of side load... these are my original TVR adjusters.... but it does sound very much like the noise I get???

[TVR Beaver]

fastandcurious said:

It went in for a cam change, but because the centre cam bearing had slipped round in the block, the sump had to be dropped. At that point I thought "In for a penny in for a pound". Best get it sorted. Crankshaft reground, Block line honed. Pistons were ok so bores were honed and new rings fitted, new oil pump, timing chain and sprockets, new mains and ends, new cam (TVR Power 885)new followers, heads off, cleaned up with new exhaust valves and stem seals. Followed by a removal of pre cats and a general tidy up under the bonnet.

Interesting.. Rob at V8D says it's the small ends (pins to piston).. do you know if they checked these?..
obviously Rob has loads of experiance with these things...
But to me.. it sounds more like hard metal... like I said before... ball bearings and not the tap of a hard pin on a softer piston?...

[red griff roger]

[quote=TVR Beaver]Anyway.. why you changed your name.. I thought it was 'Roger Red Griff' before... you can't get anything past me!!

Not changed the name as far as I know? But you can't trust anyone.

[TVR Beaver]

No comments on the noise... does anyone think it could be the issue (for thoes who have been in there and done this job??)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbCEYmtLPoQ

[haircutmike]

Just to add another to the list.

Mine made that noise and did for quite a while, even with new cam and followers.

Bit the bullet and took the engine out. Checked everything and all was OK .

I think it is a touch of tads and that a few of us are curious/paranoid!

[TVR Beaver]

haircutmike said:

Just to add another to the list.

Mine made that noise and did for quite a while, even with new cam and followers.

Bit the bullet and took the engine out. Checked everything and all was OK .

I think it is a touch of tads and that a few of us are curious/paranoid!

Peter.. did you check your small ends when you had the engine in bits... Or pin to piston... Rob says its this but it sounds to come from all over the top end and not just one cylinder... may be a bit mor front'ish...

Would it do it when pumped up?.. Not sure... they do have a lot of movement... and I'm also thinking the cap may get lifted to release the oil pressure on overrun.. so the cap floats a bit and chatters?...

[haircutmike]

John, yeh checked the small ends, twas my thoughts at the time but all sound.

Only thing I found was a slight exhaust leak at the manifold and a slight leak on the welds to the o/s manifold.

[TVR Beaver]

haircutmike said:

John, yeh checked the small ends, twas my thoughts at the time but all sound.

Only thing I found was a slight exhaust leak at the manifold and a slight leak on the welds to the o/s manifold.

So is it still doing it now?.. or has it stoped?...

I think it could be floating caps on the hydraulic adjusters.. I think everyone who has this issue has aftermarket followers?...

[haircutmike]

Correct', after market lifters.

[Simon says]

Quinny said:

TVR Beaver said:

No comments on the noise... does anyone think it could be the issue (for thoes who have been in there and done this job??)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbCEYmtLPoQ

Would it rattle when it's full of oil, under pressure??

This is the 1st time I have seen this example but then I am not an authority on the RV8 but that play seems excessive and unnecessary IMO on idle with a bit of tappet bleed down and less OP I bet 16 of those all moving around could create some racket does this affect cheaper lifters or are they all like that? see you can't stay away though Quinny

[Simon says]

Quinny said:

Simon says said:

see you can't stay away though Quinny

Had a griff on the ramp yesterday.... My mate Graham swapping a fuel filter, and fixing the boot solenoid....

Oh how I laughed as the petrol poured down the back of his overalls

Petrol? Bloody Aston snob I suppose yours runs on vintage wine then Andy? is the black Tuxedo ready from the dry cleaners yet?

[TVR Beaver]

looking good there... does it rattle on over-run ....

Just getting back to Chatter.... Chris52 did his cam and fitter genuine Land-Rover ones... and his is a quiet as a mouse... Just goes to show... But he did also machine his pedastals to get a bit more pre-load... I may try this over winter

Was suggested last night (in the pub).. that synthetic oil can glaze bores... and then you can get piston slap on the 500's due to the shorter skirt?....
But in my mind it's a hard metal noise... I sticking with the lifters I think.
.
Only problem is.. to get new lifters will mean another new cam as I'm sure putting new lifters onto a bedded cam will be a no-no..

[spend]

TVR Beaver said:

looking good there... does it rattle on over-run ....

Just getting back to Chatter.... Chris52 did his cam and fitter genuine Land-Rover ones... and his is a quiet as a mouse... Just goes to show... But he did also machine his pedastals to get a bit more pre-load... I may try this over winter

Was suggested last night (in the pub).. that synthetic oil can glaze bores... and then you can get piston slap on the 500's due to the shorter skirt?....
But in my mind it's a hard metal noise... I sticking with the lifters I think.
.
Only problem is.. to get new lifters will mean another new cam as I'm sure putting new lifters onto a bedded cam will be a no-no..

500's don't have a shorter skirt? they are just 4.2 pistons with a little relief for clearance around the bottom bits, just like some of the block needs a bit of grinding away. It's nothing at all really in the scheme of things IYSWIM.

The tolerances of lifters and bores has to be a big concern I would say. The actual tolerance of the manufacturing OD of lifters, how big the oil band (the wasted bit in the middle) so how much actual bearing surface they have left must also vary from brand - brand. Neither overlooking wear on the block lifter bores or whether they were perfectly aligned to start with, as well as the old chestnut of ham-fisters knocking out damaged / mushroomed lifters upwards? There is also the odd predicament of all bearings being fed from the O/S gallery and the N/S gallery only feeding the N/S lifters so I don't expect you will get the equal pressure you expect ~ and your pressure gauge is just a spot reading after the pump that is ALL (the fact your kitchen tap works fine doesn't mean the cloakroom in the loft tap will flow the same if you follow the analogy). st load simpler to check bores & fit solids IMHO, there seems to be a lot of assumptions about pressure & hydraulic lifters that never quite rings true to me?

[TVR Beaver]

''500's don't have a shorter skirt?''... Another expert up in smoke ... I knew they had some work done to them for clearance but was not sure what... so it's just a bit of fettling is it...

I agree with the bore bit and pressures.. but also think the 5 or 6 bits that go to make up the lifter could be better for sure... don't understand why the cap bit is so loose?.. there must be a reason for it?... I think the noise is from the lifter only though.. not lifter in bore slap... it's a hard metal sound like I said before... ball bearings hitting eack other... (I'm assuming the bores are not lined?).. as if it was lifter in bore it would be hard metal against Ali.. so would sound duller.. and not as pingy...

You need your cam designed for solids don't you?

Something to keep us entertained whilst it's raining anyway..

Edited by TVR Beaver on Sunday 7th August 10:36

[spend]

TVR Beaver said:

''500's don't have a shorter skirt?''... Another expert up in smoke ... I knew they had some work done to them for clearance but was not sure what... so it's just a bit of fettling is it...

I agree with the bore bit and pressures.. but also think the 5 or 6 bits that go to make up the lifter could be better for sure... don't understand why the cap bit is so loose?.. there must be a reason for it?... I think the noise is from the lifter only though.. not lifter in bore slap... it's a hard metal sound like I said before... ball bearings hitting eack other... (I'm assuming the bores are not lined?).. as if it was lifter in bore it would be hard metal against Ali.. so would sound duller.. and not as pingy...

You need your cam designed for solids don't you?

Something to keep us entertained whilst it's raining anyway..

Edited by TVR Beaver on Sunday 7th August 10:36

Maybe you missed a point about the bores, the pressure feed gallery is just a cut across the bores, any tolerance of lifter/bore will affect the pressure seen at the entry into the lifter body (as distinct from the pressure differentials around the galleries). That was also the point about different brand lifters and how large that cavity between the top & bottom bearing surfaces on the lifter are.

Yes you really need a mechanical cam with solids. Does make me wonder if some of this could be the weird dislike your motor took to Robs cam?