BREMEBO BRAKES
Discussion
they look like nice brakes, what they like 
Andav469 said:
I have been running this setup for over 3 years, but as I have 16" Estorils, I have to use spacers to clear the calipers.
Question - I am just about to buy some bell and rotor discs from Reyland, as the company turns their own bells, I have asked if they can add 10mm to the bell part of the assembly so that I can eliminate the spacers, anyone got any reason why it could be a bad idea?
Will this not men that the wheels will not locate on the hub centre? If so then avoid!!!Question - I am just about to buy some bell and rotor discs from Reyland, as the company turns their own bells, I have asked if they can add 10mm to the bell part of the assembly so that I can eliminate the spacers, anyone got any reason why it could be a bad idea?
Edited by Andav469 on Thursday 5th January 20:49
SeiW500 said:
Andav469 said:
I have been running this setup for over 3 years, but as I have 16" Estorils, I have to use spacers to clear the calipers.
Question - I am just about to buy some bell and rotor discs from Reyland, as the company turns their own bells, I have asked if they can add 10mm to the bell part of the assembly so that I can eliminate the spacers, anyone got any reason why it could be a bad idea?
Will this not men that the wheels will not locate on the hub centre? If so then avoid!!!Question - I am just about to buy some bell and rotor discs from Reyland, as the company turns their own bells, I have asked if they can add 10mm to the bell part of the assembly so that I can eliminate the spacers, anyone got any reason why it could be a bad idea?
Edited by Andav469 on Thursday 5th January 20:49
Brummmie said:
There are Chinese Brembo, and Brembo Brembo, same as Pagid, price is a good indication.
Pads/calipers/discs or all of them? I think most of us are aware of the Brembo copies re pads and discs etc.
I've heard of Chinese copies for bikes on Calipers but hadn't heard of any specific info on E 38 Caliper rip off!
Here's my Calipers supplied as a kit off eBay via (oldphonebloke) and Caprisport brackets etc.
Second hand but re furbished.
I've looked at many other second hand E38 Calipers and numbers on pistons etc match.
Not that thatmeans much these days.
Unless someone's aged them they have dinks and dents on the castings from previous use.
You tell me if there fake
Pads, they are not copies, the less expensive motor factor pads are made under license, it's just a generic pad that's put in a box we all feel more comfortable buying because of brand recognition. Would I put them in my shopping run Audi A3, yes no problem, but my occasional track car, No you will ruin your Trackday after 2-3 laps.
"Normal" brake systems have to absorb the energy from a stop from 80mph? Once in a blue moon, say that emergency stop on the M6, a track you do that every corner that's the difference, that's why you pay so much more for a track pad.
"Normal" brake systems have to absorb the energy from a stop from 80mph? Once in a blue moon, say that emergency stop on the M6, a track you do that every corner that's the difference, that's why you pay so much more for a track pad.
Brummmie said:
Pads, they are not copies, the less expensive motor factor pads are made under license, it's just a generic pad that's put in a box we all feel more comfortable buying because of brand recognition. Would I put them in my shopping run Audi A3, yes no problem, but my occasional track car, No you will ruin your Trackday after 2-3 laps.
"Normal" brake systems have to absorb the energy from a stop from 80mph? Once in a blue moon, say that emergency stop on the M6, a track you do that every corner that's the difference, that's why you pay so much more for a track pad.
You certainly don't get something for nothing with pads, more expensive yes... but when compared with OEM pads track day pads they also make more dust, noise, and are very aggressive on your discs dramatically shortening their working life. Very often track day pads also don't start to work properly until they've got some heat in them and can make track day pads down right dangerous for the first couple of miles on the road.... as you drive to your track day. "Normal" brake systems have to absorb the energy from a stop from 80mph? Once in a blue moon, say that emergency stop on the M6, a track you do that every corner that's the difference, that's why you pay so much more for a track pad.
Lets be honest here, if track day pads were so fantastic car manufactures would use these compounds on the cars they sell to the general public, the reason they don't use these compounds is because they are full of undesirable compromises. The truth is Audi have more braking expertise and bigger annual R&D budget for such things than Quiche Lorraine have ever mustered over their entire trading history.
But when the big manufactures need the very best brakes in the world for their higher performance models they do still look outside for help, and who do they go to? Quiche Lorraine? No!.... they go to the mighty Brembo corporation, and for very good reason!
Uprating your standard Chimaera mono piston caast iron slider calipers to these four opposing piston Brembo calipers delivers a massive step up in clamping power, and when you do so you'll be fitting a discs that are 25% bigger too. Braking is just the conversion of kinetic energy (forward motion) into heat, your discs are the heat sinks so the bigger the heat sink the better it can dissipate the heat... in the case of this Brembo brake upgrade it's a whole 25% better.
So given all the compromises and negative traits track day pads come with the engineer's solution to better brakes would always be to fit a better caliper design and use a bigger disc rather than trying to improve the standard setup by fitting track day pads. Doing things this way delivers all the braking performance improvements you could ever wish for while still using a far less compromised OEM road pad compound.
Of course this is exactly what car makers do when they make a high performance version of a model, if you buy a Golf GTi over a standard Golf you don't get the same brakes fitted with a track day pad compound, you get better callipers working on bigger discs because this is the correct way to engineer improved braking performance.
The GTI is still using a road pad compound, because VW have spent millions developing the compound to deliver the best performance across a multitude of real world requirements. So if you want to upgrade your brakes and you drive in the real world forget these one trick pony track day pads and simply follow what the true automotive engineers do, fit better calipers to bigger discs and stick with a decent properly developed road based friction compound.
Don't fit track day pads unless you really are spending 98% of your time on the track, take the engineer's approach to upgrading your brakes!
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Thursday 19th January 12:30
ChimpOnGas said:
Brummmie said:
Pads, they are not copies, the less expensive motor factor pads are made under license, it's just a generic pad that's put in a box we all feel more comfortable buying because of brand recognition. Would I put them in my shopping run Audi A3, yes no problem, but my occasional track car, No you will ruin your Trackday after 2-3 laps.
"Normal" brake systems have to absorb the energy from a stop from 80mph? Once in a blue moon, say that emergency stop on the M6, a track you do that every corner that's the difference, that's why you pay so much more for a track pad.
You certainly don't get something for nothing with pads, more expensive yes... but when compared with OEM pads track day pads they also make more dust, noise, and are very aggressive on your discs dramatically shortening their working life. Very often track day pads also don't start to work properly until they've got some heat in them and can make track day pads down right dangerous for the first couple of miles on the road.... as you drive to your track day. "Normal" brake systems have to absorb the energy from a stop from 80mph? Once in a blue moon, say that emergency stop on the M6, a track you do that every corner that's the difference, that's why you pay so much more for a track pad.
Lets be honest here, if track day pads were so fantastic car manufactures would use these compounds on the cars they sell to the general public, the reason they don't use these compounds is because they are full of undesirable compromises. The truth is Audi have more braking expertise and bigger annual R&D budget for such things than Quiche Lorraine have ever mustered over their entire trading history.
But when the big manufactures need the very best brakes in the world for their higher performance models they do still look outside for help, and who do they go to? Quiche Lorraine? No!.... they go to the mighty Brembo corporation, and for very good reason!
Uprating your standard Chimaera mono piston caast iron slider calipers to these four opposing piston Brembo calipers delivers a massive step up in clamping power, and when you do so you'll be fitting a discs that are 25% bigger too. Braking is just the conversion of kinetic energy (forward motion) into heat, your discs are the heat sinks so the bigger the heat sink the better it can dissipate the heat... in the case of this Brembo brake upgrade it's a whole 25% better.
So given all the compromises and negative traits track day pads come with the engineer's solution to better brakes would always be to fit a better caliper design and use a bigger disc rather than trying to improve the standard setup by fitting track day pads. Doing things this way delivers all the braking performance improvements you could ever wish for while still using a far less compromised OEM road pad compound.
Of course this is exactly what car makers do when they make a high performance version of a model, if you buy a Golf GTi over a standard Golf you don't get the same brakes fitted with a track day pad compound, you get better callipers working on bigger discs because this is the correct way to engineer improved braking performance.
The GTI is still using a road pad compound, because VW have spent millions developing the compound to deliver the best performance across a multitude of real world requirements. So if you want to upgrade your brakes and you drive in the real world forget these one trick pony track day pads and simply follow what the true automotive engineers do, fit better calipers to bigger discs and stick with a decent properly developed road based friction compound.
Don't fit track day pads unless you really are spending 98% of your time on the track, take the engineer's approach to upgrading your brakes!
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Thursday 19th January 12:30
Brummmie said:
Yes, you are right, I bow down to your superior knowledge...
Thanks, but I neither seek your praise or ridicule for presenting what are after all just logical and inarguable engineering facts.We'd all like to think we can upgrade our brakes by simply fitting a set of different pads, but of course it really isn't that easy, simply changing the friction material would never be the approach of a true engineer. The uncomfortable truth is there's no such thing as the perfect pad, they're all compromised in some way or other, choosing the right pad is therefore all about what you feel is an acceptable set of compromises for the given use of your car.
Track day pads will always exhibit a number of undesirable compromises incompatible with use on the road, compromises many will soon find intolerable. All I'm saying is if you start with improving the fundamental engineering hardware (callipers & discs) first you will almost certainly find you just don't need these expensive track day pads that at the end of the day either squeal badly, make way too much dust, don't really work properly until warm or reduce your disc life dramatically... and often all of the above combined.
Unlike others I'm not selling anything here, I'm merely reminding people there are no easy short cuts to better brakes without introducing a host of other undesirable traits. It's also worth pointing out that for the cost of just four sets of these expensive and compromised track day pads any Chimaera or Griffith owner could buy themselves a four piston Brembo calliper set, conversion brackets, a pair of genuine Brembo 324mm discs, and a set of genuine and high quality Brembo road pads.
I'd put this setup against any Chim or Griff running the standard cast iron mono piston slider callipers and 260mm discs no matter what fancy expensive track day pads were being used, I also guarantee you the Brembo brake equipped car would stop in a shorter distance every time and by a significant margin... while at the same time delivering low noise/dust progressive and fade free performance.
The bottom line is if you use genuine Brembo road pads in this Brembo brake upgrade you not only get better brakes, you also remove all those undesirable characteristics you'd suffer if you took the very compromised short cut approach of fitting track day pads in your standard brake setup. We all like to think we're heroic race car drivers but if we're honest with ourselves most of us spend 98% of of time driving our TVRs on the road. As such us road drivers are way better off uprating the braking of our cars with better callipers and bigger discs and sticking with quality brake pads designed for road use, rather than trying to improve things with inappropriate track day pad compounds.
Don't underestimate these pad compromises either, as others have found to their cost track day pads can become very frustrating and embarrassing very quickly indeed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL0PnCYrYa8
I'm sure these one trick pony track day pads perform brilliantly on the track, but how long will you suffer all the compromises on the road before you admit to yourself they're only really suitable for the track? At which point you just need to ask yourself how much time do I genuinely spend driving my TVR on the track and vs the road?
The answer to the question "how best can I uprate my brakes?" should come to you very quickly after that
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 23 January 12:47
ChimpOnGas said:
You certainly don't get something for nothing with pads, more expensive yes... but when compared with OEM pads track day pads they also make more dust, noise, and are very aggressive on your discs dramatically shortening their working life. Very often track day pads also don't start to work properly until they've got some heat in them and can make track day pads down right dangerous for the first couple of miles on the road.... as you drive to your track day.
Wrong.Edited by ChimpOnGas on Thursday 19th January 12:30
The pad that I use is totally consistent regardless of temperature - Ferodo DS2500. You really do talk a load of garbage.
griffdude said:
ChimpOnGas said:
You certainly don't get something for nothing with pads, more expensive yes... but when compared with OEM pads track day pads they also make more dust, noise, and are very aggressive on your discs dramatically shortening their working life. Very often track day pads also don't start to work properly until they've got some heat in them and can make track day pads down right dangerous for the first couple of miles on the road.... as you drive to your track day.
Wrong.Edited by ChimpOnGas on Thursday 19th January 12:30
The pad that I use is totally consistent regardless of temperature - Ferodo DS2500. You really do talk a load of garbage.
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