Conversions vs Modifications

Conversions vs Modifications

Author
Discussion

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
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Hey Guys im new to this forum and am looking for some help.

I am going to be purchasing a 1275 mini later this year to modify or convert next year, I have been looking at things like the 2.0 C20xe conversion and the 1.8 Honda conversion. The C20xe is proving to be very expensive and I am not wanting to spend the best part of 10K on a conversion, I havent heard of any prices regarding a Honda conversion.

I am looking to keep the car FWD unless someone has a good idea? I have also looked at the R1 conversion, which in my opinion is great and if i had the knowledge to convert it to a bike engine I would choose this however with the subframe coming in at 3500 alone I feel this is still going to cost about another 2-3k on top of that!

I have looked at things like stage 3 mods for the 1275 engine and supercharging / turocharging, I am wondering if i can expect strong figures with these conversions and how much i am going to have to throw at the car to get a decent 0-60.

I've only really had modern day cars however I am looking to convert this mini and use as a daily runner.

What sort of conversions / Modifications have you guys seen that come out at a decent price with a good 0-60 Time? I've had cars that are sitting at 5.7 seconds to 62 and would like to get that or better however if this is not achievable on the standard 1275 then what sort of things will i need to be looking at?

Feedback would very much be appreciated.

Thanks

Dan Barclay
Aberdeen

FWDRacer

3,564 posts

223 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
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Where to start.

I think aspirations and pocket might be a bit disconnected here. Big power that you desire = multiple thousands, whether you decide to convert powertrain or modify the existing A-series engine.

Buy a copy of Miniworld - have a read and then head back to the forum.

A classic Mini as a daily driver is a compromise - many are willing to accept, but couple that with an engine in highly tuned form, it can be a pain the backside.

How old are you? Not wishing pry, but insurance could be your biggest headache if under 25.

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
I understand what you are saying and the 1275 engine tuned may be enough for me, i have been looking over some conversions and the thousands that people spend is far too much.

I'm most likely going to be going for the 1275 with a stage 3 tuning package on it, im not sure what the 104 bhp that this offers is giving out speed wise however looking at what people are saying regarding insurance a conversion may be a few years away for myself as I will be 21 when I purchase my mini. I currently own a 63 Plate fiesta ST2 and have had the new Focus ST2 (terrible car) as well but want to have a classic alongside.

Do you know of anyone who is running about 100bhp on their mini or of someone with the turbo / supercharger with the 1275?

FWDRacer

3,564 posts

223 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
I think you'd be pleasantly suprised at what 90/100bhp feels like in Mini. Easily attainable (normally aspirated) and keeps the car friendly as daily driver.

Remember what kerbweight 90/100bhp is propelling!

My road mini has 64 at wheels (85+ at crank) - will crack 60 in under 8 seconds and pull just over a ton on a circuit. However, on a B-road, you'd need to be in something very quick or wieldy to get anywhere close. This is where a Mini feels really alive and quick.

I hope that helps and gives you some scope.

Edited by FWDRacer on Wednesday 4th June 13:16

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
104 is apparently easily done in them and 8 seconds from that little bhp is amazing! does it feel sturdy enough at 100mph?

id be running it on a pretty low stance on 7x13's and i believe this may cause a problem with steering with their being no power or pump steering?
is there a good way around this?

if 7 seconds is achievable in a normally aspirated id be happy, do you think this would be obtainable with the 104 bhp?

rufusruffcutt

1,539 posts

204 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
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DanielBarclay said:
104 is apparently easily done in them and 8 seconds from that little bhp is amazing! does it feel sturdy enough at 100mph?

id be running it on a pretty low stance on 7x13's and i believe this may cause a problem with steering with their being no power or pump steering?
is there a good way around this?

if 7 seconds is achievable in a normally aspirated id be happy, do you think this would be obtainable with the 104 bhp?
Dan,

At a 100mph+ is not where the mini excels! although its an interesting experience yikes

I would steer clear of 13" wheels, stick with either 12" or 10", as 13" really affects the handling in my humble opinion. There is no power steering on any production version of the mini, although some tarmac rally cars have been converted to run with it.

If you want to make it quick, the best (cheapest) modification is to get the weight out of the car, but that will make it a pain to use as a daily driver.

To get a low 0-60 you could alter the gearing rather than going for all out power, but again this would affect its use as a daily driver.

Its all horses for courses.

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
rufusruffcutt said:
Dan,

At a 100mph+ is not where the mini excels! although its an interesting experience yikes

I would steer clear of 13" wheels, stick with either 12" or 10", as 13" really affects the handling in my humble opinion. There is no power steering on any production version of the mini, although some tarmac rally cars have been converted to run with it.

If you want to make it quick, the best (cheapest) modification is to get the weight out of the car, but that will make it a pain to use as a daily driver.

To get a low 0-60 you could alter the gearing rather than going for all out power, but again this would affect its use as a daily driver.

Its all horses for courses.
I suppose your right, 100mph would be just for a few blasts id be wanting to run it the quarter mile for funs and giggles,

as for handling id still have issues with 12x7inch but i guess upper body strength would just need a build up! :P

removing the weight wont be an issue my plan was to put in a minimalist dash and remove the old heavy one, probably remove the rear seats for a half roll cage too.

When you say alter the gearing, what do you mean by this and would it be possible to do myself?

As said would like to have maybe 7sec to 60 so the Stage 3 would be my first option along with stronger brakes, would this also affect the gearing you mentioned?

rufusruffcutt

1,539 posts

204 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
DanielBarclay said:
I suppose your right, 100mph would be just for a few blasts id be wanting to run it the quarter mile for funs and giggles,

as for handling id still have issues with 12x7inch but i guess upper body strength would just need a build up! :P

removing the weight wont be an issue my plan was to put in a minimalist dash and remove the old heavy one, probably remove the rear seats for a half roll cage too.

When you say alter the gearing, what do you mean by this and would it be possible to do myself?

As said would like to have maybe 7sec to 60 so the Stage 3 would be my first option along with stronger brakes, would this also affect the gearing you mentioned?
With 7" wide tyres you'll end up looking like Popeye in no time smile

By altering the gearing, I mean changing the differential, to give greater acceleration rather than top end speed, its a trade off between the two. I don't know how mechanically minded you are, but it is possible to do it at home, but its an engine out job.

Definitely upgrade the brakes if you are going for performance. No this won't affect the gearing I mentioned.

To give you an idea of the performance your on about and some context, I've worked out the BHP per ton of your Fiesta and your example mini with 104bhp.
Forgive me if the figures are not exact.

Fiesta ST 180bhp / 1.075kg = 167BHP per ton
Example Mini 104bhp / 0.650kg (average kerb weight of mini) = 160BHP per ton

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
rufusruffcutt said:
With 7" wide tyres you'll end up looking like Popeye in no time smile

By altering the gearing, I mean changing the differential, to give greater acceleration rather than top end speed, its a trade off between the two. I don't know how mechanically minded you are, but it is possible to do it at home, but its an engine out job.

Definitely upgrade the brakes if you are going for performance. No this won't affect the gearing I mentioned.

To give you an idea of the performance your on about and some context, I've worked out the BHP per ton of your Fiesta and your example mini with 104bhp.
Forgive me if the figures are not exact.

Fiesta ST 180bhp / 1.075kg = 167BHP per ton
Example Mini 104bhp / 0.650kg (average kerb weight of mini) = 160BHP per ton
the wide wheel / low stance look just puts the mini in the right class for me!

I may not be able to do this myself as the only engine ive worked on before was that of an R53 cooper S, however i have many strong minded mechanical friends to ooze knowledge out of hah.

Like you said the car will perform perfectly well for backroads and town driving which Im starting to feel is the reason for a mini!
I am very tempted to stick with the 1275cc and modify that while still staying fully aspirated.

What sort of things will i need to look for to ensure im getting a sound quality mini, paint isnt an issue as im wanting to get it resprayed and a side company with my work can platic or sand blast the shell for me before tidying up any rust and painting. just need to know what is a no no when going to shop.

Being from Aberdeen there isn't much around here in regards to Mini's for sale so will be venturing down to our English neighbours later in the year!

When you put the weight to power ratio like that it seems very acceptable!

rufusruffcutt

1,539 posts

204 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
DanielBarclay said:
the wide wheel / low stance look just puts the mini in the right class for me!

I may not be able to do this myself as the only engine ive worked on before was that of an R53 cooper S, however i have many strong minded mechanical friends to ooze knowledge out of hah.

Like you said the car will perform perfectly well for backroads and town driving which Im starting to feel is the reason for a mini!
I am very tempted to stick with the 1275cc and modify that while still staying fully aspirated.

What sort of things will i need to look for to ensure im getting a sound quality mini, paint isnt an issue as im wanting to get it resprayed and a side company with my work can platic or sand blast the shell for me before tidying up any rust and painting. just need to know what is a no no when going to shop.

Being from Aberdeen there isn't much around here in regards to Mini's for sale so will be venturing down to our English neighbours later in the year!

When you put the weight to power ratio like that it seems very acceptable!
Condition of the bodywork would be my priority when looking to buy. Just look at some of the epic rebuild threads on here to see why!
Mechanicals can be easily sorted thanks to the many Mini specialists out there.

Maybe see if there is a local mini club in Aberdeen?

Both the mini magazines have for sale adverts in the back of them. It will give you a good idea on prices.

If you get stuck with something, just post something up on here, someone will be able to help. smile

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
rufusruffcutt said:
Condition of the bodywork would be my priority when looking to buy. Just look at some of the epic rebuild threads on here to see why!
Mechanicals can be easily sorted thanks to the many Mini specialists out there.

Maybe see if there is a local mini club in Aberdeen?

Both the mini magazines have for sale adverts in the back of them. It will give you a good idea on prices.

If you get stuck with something, just post something up on here, someone will be able to help. smile
Thanks for the info mate,
Ill get back to this thread when I come to buy or with any other questions! :P

Nezquick

1,453 posts

125 months

Friday 6th June 2014
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I know when I built my Mini (albeit about 15 years ago now) I spent a fortune on a 1340cc engine. It had the works really: stage 3 head, a 286 kent cam, roller rockers, fully lightened/balanced, Omega pistons, weber carb etc etc. That came out at over 110bhp on the rolling road (coupled with a straight cut, 5 speed gear box and drop gears) and it felt like a pocket rocket. In reality, it was probably around the 6.5 - 7 second mark 0-62. For quicker acceleration, you have to alter the final drive in the gearbox, but that makes the top end suffer and you'll be doing silly revs at about 60mph.

IIRC, I spent about £3k to £3.5k on the engine/gearbox etc alone.

Turbo charging is quite difficult to do on these and you'll need to make some extensive bulkhead modifications to fit one.

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Friday 6th June 2014
quotequote all
Nezquick said:
I know when I built my Mini (albeit about 15 years ago now) I spent a fortune on a 1340cc engine. It had the works really: stage 3 head, a 286 kent cam, roller rockers, fully lightened/balanced, Omega pistons, weber carb etc etc. That came out at over 110bhp on the rolling road (coupled with a straight cut, 5 speed gear box and drop gears) and it felt like a pocket rocket. In reality, it was probably around the 6.5 - 7 second mark 0-62. For quicker acceleration, you have to alter the final drive in the gearbox, but that makes the top end suffer and you'll be doing silly revs at about 60mph.

IIRC, I spent about £3k to £3.5k on the engine/gearbox etc alone.

Turbo charging is quite difficult to do on these and you'll need to make some extensive bulkhead modifications to fit one.
Hi nezquick and thanks for the info, I've been looking into a few things and talking to the mini performance companies and the 104bhp is producing a time of 6.1 to 60 with the kit and a clean up inside the engine itself, this costing about £2200 in total.
Another thing I have looked at is the R1 auto FWD kit and have been given a price of £5500 for the full lot fully fitted with sequential gearbox, rpm up to 13,000! I'd need to supply the engine and wiring only which for 0-60 in the region of between 3.8seconds and 4.2seconds I don't see as a bad price.

Atop this I have also looked at cars such as 1974 1600cc VW Bugs that I know many American companies make bolt on turbo kits for a little under 2500 American dollars. Producing something in the range of 180 and 220 bhp with a 0-60 of 5.5 seconds, just weighing up my options at the moment but the mini appears to be coming out on top!

Thanks
Dan

Nezquick

1,453 posts

125 months

Friday 6th June 2014
quotequote all
I honestly don't think you can beat a properly modified A-Series engine. The sound of a decent A-series (with s/c drop gears) is fantastic.

If I were to go down the conversion route, I don't think i'd look any further than a z-cars, bike engined, RWD Mini, but they're expensive (albeit I believe you get what you pay for).

rufusruffcutt

1,539 posts

204 months

Friday 6th June 2014
quotequote all
DanielBarclay said:
Atop this I have also looked at cars such as 1974 1600cc VW Bugs that I know many American companies make bolt on turbo kits for a little under 2500 American dollars. Producing something in the range of 180 and 220 bhp with a 0-60 of 5.5 seconds, just weighing up my options at the moment but the mini appears to be coming out on top!
Dan, I have a mate who drag races Beetles, they are ferociously fast over a quarter mile. His bug does 11 second passes all day long running a 2332cc on carbs! Trouble with bugs are they are not all that great in the handling department.

Cooperman

4,428 posts

249 months

Monday 9th June 2014
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Personally I would never fit a non A-series in a classic Mini any more than I would put a BMW 3-litre diesel engine in a Jag E-Type. It would, quite simply, not be a Mini or even a true classic car any more.
A personal view, but classic cars should be looked after not butchered.

Pit Pony

8,265 posts

120 months

Monday 9th June 2014
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If I were going to put anything other than an A series in a Mini, I wouldn't pay the extra £££ that a 1275 engine would cost.

Remember that the MG metro engine, produced a nice reliable 75 Bhp, and was in it's day a quick car (Not a hot hatch, but capable of providing enjoyment when used enthusiastically)

The Metro Turdo, Produced 92 Bhp, and whilst many people think they were dire, it was a bloody good car in it's time.

Once you start trying to Produce 100 BHP in a normally aspirated A series, it all becomes a bit difficult to drive, with nothing at the bottom end, and very unforgiving cam profiles.

If this is your first mini, I'd stick to trying to get 75 to 80 BHP out of a 1275, keep the tyres fairly skinny, and the suspension not to hard or too low, and enjoy it.

annodomini2

6,860 posts

250 months

Tuesday 10th June 2014
quotequote all
Nezquick said:
Turbo charging is quite difficult to do on these and you'll need to make some extensive bulkhead modifications to fit one.
Only if you use the Metro manifold.

DanielBarclay

Original Poster:

11 posts

117 months

Tuesday 10th June 2014
quotequote all
Hey guys, sorry I've not been keeping on top of this thread, I've been looking into it and talking to a few mini specialists and local club members and have been told that if I'm wanting power like I'm looking for that I should look at another car!
I've also been speaking to R1 automotive and asked every question regarding their conversion to a 1100cc R1 fwd engine. Judging by the figures in comparison with Z cars hyabusa RWD it's safer to stay FWD due to the torquey back end in the Zcars.

After talking this out and asking almost a hundred questions on the matter, I am going to be going with the R1 conversion. I am aware many people will not be on the same page as me with the idea of this conversion however I feel it is a personal decision and the figures are suitable to what I am looking for.

If anyone knows anyone with this conversion can you please just ask them if they have had any issues with suspension and if they used air ride or coilovers to sort it.

Thanks a lot
Dan

Cooperman

4,428 posts

249 months

Tuesday 10th June 2014
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If contemplating fitting a different engine into a true classic car a Mini is not the ideal basis.
A better bet is a Ford Anglia 105E with a Sierra Twin-Cam 2 litre, or a Sprite/Midget with an MX5 unit. They are easier to do and don't 'butcher' the classic car in the same was as doing a Mini does.
I've seen Escort Mk.1's with Vauxhall 2.3 litre units and they are fairly easy to do as well.
An MGB-GT with a Honda 2000 engine would be interesting as well, but of course, a Buick/Rover V8, bored & stroked to over 4 litres is very easy as the factory made a V8 version, so all the parts are available 'off the shelf'.
But really, none of the above could still be regarded as true classis cars.