2 Door Range Rover project

2 Door Range Rover project

Author
Discussion

vjj

592 posts

238 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
Believe it or not it is an LT77 - with an AP Racing clutch.

I have the Ashcroft stage 2 HP 22 with the 24
internals in my 6.3 defender

I have a huge hewland torque convertor and it
it is perfect so will be doing the same with the disco.

1.2 ratio transfer box.

We have fitted several of them to other big CC cars, both Rover and Chevy
and never had any trouble.

To be honest the compushift is not worth the extra.

What motor are you fitting?

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
vjj said:
Believe it or not it is an LT77 - with an AP Racing clutch.

I have the Ashcroft stage 2 HP 22 with the 24
internals in my 6.3 defender

I have a huge hewland torque convertor and it
it is perfect so will be doing the same with the disco.

1.2 ratio transfer box.

We have fitted several of them to other big CC cars, both Rover and Chevy
and never had any trouble.

To be honest the compushift is not worth the extra.

What motor are you fitting?
The M113 AMG unit. The uprated Ashcroft box will be fine but every Rangie I've driven with the ZF has a dead spot in the performance in the 50-70 overtaking window.

I am going to use the 1:1 TC as I don't see the need to sit at 3k rpm on the motorway.

vjj

592 posts

238 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
My defender is pulling 90 mph at 3000rpm tyres are 20mm taller than standard.

I think you will find the flat spots are more to do with the ecu's desire to cruise economically than
any gearbox issues

The first thing that mark Adams does on any LR ecu is overwrite that bit of it.

If you go 4HP24EH and merc injection you will need a bespoke system

Very expensive - MBE can do it though.

Which version of the motor?

Edited by vjj on Sunday 31st August 13:04

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Sunday 31st August 2014
quotequote all
vjj said:
My defender is pulling 90 mph at 3000rpm tyres are 20mm taller than standard.

I think you will find the flat spots are more to do with the ecu's desire to cruise economically than
any gearbox issues

The first thing that mark Adams does on any LR ecu is overwrite that bit of it.

If you go hp24 and merc injection you will need a bespoke system

Very expensive - me can do it though.

Why are you going with the merc engine?
To do something different. It gives the power that I want but without being anywhere near as stressed as building a big RV8. It'll also give better economy and hopefully sound like a Spitfire biggrin

An LS will do the job perfectly but it's been done whereas my idea hasn't. The Merc engine is smaller than the LS and I'm surrounded by Merc servicers in London.

If AMG engines are good enough for McLaren and Aston then they're good enough for me. smile

Whatever engine went in I was always junking all the LR ECU stuff as modern systems like Syvecs are infinitely superior in all ways. I fitted Syvecs to the Typhon and it transformed the engine totally. Having run RV8s in Tivs I can't be arsed when starting from a blank sheet to use such old tech and electronics as I feel modern solutions offer significantly more.

vjj

592 posts

238 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
fully understand.

5.5 AMG motor is epic - nice flat torque curve - especially in the ML55 Version (although 20 hp less)

But torque = accelleration

depending on what parameters are required Mark Adams might be able to get that 5.5 lump to run on GEMS.

I know he has got a couple of efi LS engines and a BMW V8 and V12 to do so.

This would be ideal as it talks to the HP24 ECU in any case.

If you need any help machining a flex plate/torque converter interface get in touch.

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
vjj said:
fully understand.

5.5 AMG motor is epic - nice flat torque curve - especially in the ML55 Version (although 20 hp less)

But torque = accelleration

depending on what parameters are required Mark Adams might be able to get that 5.5 lump to run on GEMS.

I know he has got a couple of efi LS engines and a BMW V8 and V12 to do so.

This would be ideal as it talks to the HP24 ECU in any case.

If you need any help machining a flex plate/torque converter interface get in touch.
Thanks for the offer. If I have any glitches with the chap in using I'll give a shout.

The torque curve seems ideal for a fridge. The Syvecs system will run it and also control fans and other sundries. But I'm planning to run the HP24 internals in non electronic form so it'll be nice and dumb.

vjj

592 posts

238 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
you will be surprised how good the 22/24 hybrid is - as I said before mine drives like a dream.

depending on where the engine sits you may have to mount it a little further back - in any case it is longer than a 22 by 15mm - and you may have to adjust the propshaft lengths

just something to bear in mind.

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
vjj said:
you will be surprised how good the 22/24 hybrid is - as I said before mine drives like a dream.

depending on where the engine sits you may have to mount it a little further back - in any case it is longer than a 22 by 15mm - and you may have to adjust the propshaft lengths

just something to bear in mind.
If using the electronic inards what are the variables that can be adjusted/controlled?

The 15mm isn't an issue as it's all new into the '72 and the AMG engine is actually about 20mm shorter than the RV8.

vjj

592 posts

238 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
none - the 24 ecu talks to the gems and bosch engine ecus

the 22/24 - stage 2 - hybrid is not electronic in any way and used the combination of speed sensor and kickdown cable tightness/throttle linkage position to decide which gear to be in.

if you want some adjustability you will have to go with the 4HP24EH and the compushift from Ashcroft

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
vjj said:
none - the 24 ecu talks to the gems and bosch engine ecus

the 22/24 - stage 2 - hybrid is not electronic in any way and used the combination of speed sensor and kickdown cable tightness/throttle linkage position to decide which gear to be in.

if you want some adjustability you will have to go with the 4HP24EH and the compushift from Ashcroft
Yup. This is why I'm currently planning to use the high torque Ashcroft box but in non electronic form.

vjj

592 posts

238 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
also referred to as the 'stage 2'

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
quotequote all
vjj said:
also referred to as the 'stage 2'
Yup.

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Wednesday 22nd April 2015
quotequote all
Looks like the next stage of the project will be getting underway in the next couple of weeks.

First tasks are:

Remove current gearbox housing and fit the later version so that the uprated ZF unit will fit.

Change lower section of dash to the factory aircon spec.

Install later seating.

So in terms of drivetrain it will initially be running a 1989+ set up plus seating.

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Sunday 24th May 2015
quotequote all


After 4 years of sitting in storage, it was dragged out and work finally began.

First step was to strip the interior and remove the trans tunnel.

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Sunday 24th May 2015
quotequote all
Previous owner who restored the car and fully galvanised it also invested quite a bit on a full Nationwide teddy bear trim. All now removed and about to go into Ebay.



Dash removed, interior removed. Trans tunnel is also off.

Waiting to prep the replacement trans tunnel and prepare to install the uprated auto box and LT230 with 1:1.

Interestingly, on closer inspection of the engine the previous owner really went to town on it. Sports exhaust, wrapped, bespoke manifolds, webers. By all accounts it is quite a pokey engine and has only done a few hundred miles since being installed around 12 years ago.




DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Wednesday 7th September 2016
quotequote all
A bit of an update 12 months on.

I've removed and rebuilt the 4L engine that was in the donor Disco I bought. It was in amazing condition to start with with fantastic compression on all cylinders but as the aim is to fit a Rotrex it has been refreshed with a new cam, followers, shells, chain etc. It is currently mated to the updated Ashcroft auto box and the LT230 from the disco ready for installation. I've gone for the LT230 instead of the BW purely for the reason it gives me the option to change the ratio at a later date from 1.2 to 1 if desired.

Interestingly, the engine that was in the 2 door when I bought it has revealed a bit of additional information on close inspection. The engine was built specifically for this car on behalf of the previous owner and I always assumed it was a 3.5 albeit the smoothest one of ever run and quite a bit more pokey than a standard 3.5. However, we noticed it was cross bolted and so picked up the phone to RPI who I knew had been involved. They supplied a short engine in 4.0 along with the edelbrock carb and piper cam. Once the engine is out and I've removed the performance manifolds I'll be able to see if the heads have been ported at all.

In short, it is a brand new 4.0 engine that was built 10 years ago with pre serp running gear and has covered less than 500 miles so I'll need to have a rethink as to what to do with it. It's far too good to job out on eBay.


NomduJour

18,973 posts

258 months

Wednesday 7th September 2016
quotequote all
What happened to the AMG engine?

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Wednesday 7th September 2016
quotequote all
NomduJour said:
What happened to the AMG engine?
Lack of a gearbox solution combined with the realisation that the majority of people involved in the Mercedes side of the market are just buffoons who know nothing other than the price of wrapping a car or how to chip the ECU had made it too much of a hurdle for this project.

The updated ZF is 15mm longer than the standard unit and once you fit an adaptor plate for the Merc engine you are having to relocate every aspect of the drive train. Given the amount of time I have spare for the project it would mean at least another year of work. Plus, the ZF really can't handle the power.

No one has yet cracked how to map and control a modern auto box in a retro fit meant for smooth road use which is what I really wanted to fit and that meant I was left with only being able to use a manual box but I need this car to be an auto.

However, rather conveniently, I have another Rangie sitting here which is missing a drivetrain so the Merc with a manual box is still going to happen but not for this two door. It will be my pet project once I've got this one completed. biggrin

NomduJour

18,973 posts

258 months

Wednesday 7th September 2016
quotequote all
An LS/6L80 is a direct bolt-in solution nowadays - straight to an LT230, with engine and accessory mounts all available - I'm sort-of looking for a suitable drivetrain. Insuring it in town is possibly the biggest issue.

DonkeyApple

Original Poster:

54,919 posts

168 months

Wednesday 7th September 2016
quotequote all
NomduJour said:
An LS/6L80 is a direct bolt-in solution nowadays - straight to an LT230, with engine and accessory mounts all available - I'm sort-of looking for a suitable drivetrain. Insuring it in town is possibly the biggest issue.
It's still not as bolt in as they claim. The 6L after market TCUs are all for drag racing and make for very harsh changes for normal driving and weird change points etc. Mapping a system for road use and dropping the line pressures back down is a huge amount of work.

The engine brackets are from Marks Adapters and unless they have changed very recently they are for LS1/2 mounts so you have to fudge them to the 3 bolt LS3. And the adaptor plate for the 4L and 6L to the LT230 shoves it back a long way meaning new shafts and remote mounting etc.

In engineering terms by far the best box is the NAG1 from Chrysler which is the 5G-tronic from Merc. The box is much shorter than the GM units so allows for Adapters without having to remount the TC or change shafts etc. It also has much better gearing for road use, the 6L has a hideous digger gear for first which makes it useless for UK normal road use.

Again, the issue with the 5G-tronic is that the after market TCUs cater for the slamming gear, drag race US demand as opposed to the English, want to just drive like a grown-up requirement.

In all my research, I determined that if I was going to go the LS route I would actually use an LS1 and mate it to the ZF, essentially how it was done on the Overfinch as it is the most straight forward engineering solution and the engine won't rip the box apart etc.