Range Rover Classic as a Daily Drive?
Discussion
Been and had a look. The car has had lots of money spent on it and lots of work done, and is generally in good shape for it's age.
Things I noted:
NSF inner wing - hole the size of a 50p where the plastic arch liner is fitted. No other rot. I believe these are non-structural/non-MOT? Easy enough to patch that.
Boot floor - similar sized hole at the very rear edge, near the spare tyre, and some scabby points just ahead of that hole. Again, is the boot floor structural/MOT failure? Easy to remedy?? The area around the fuel filler as DA mentioned above is all good and solid.
Sills - fairly recent documented repair work to both sills (repair rather than replacement). Same again, are these structural for MOT? On the nearside one, where there is a vertical seam between the sill and the floor, that vertical seal is a bit manky and scabby - but not rotten to the point you can remove any metal from it.
Overall, the car has service history from brand new, has a stack of history & receipts from the past few years run to nearly £10k, and looks tidy & presentable except for the bonnet which needs re-painting (it was jet washed and started to peel). There are oil leaks underneath, one probably the sump gasket, the other (worse) from the front of the gearbox somewhere, but generally I think it's quite decent. It's also (IMO) very cheap - but the (private) seller, who seems very genuine, has very valid & personal reasons why he just needs it to go.
I just can't decide whether I really want it or not!
Things I noted:
NSF inner wing - hole the size of a 50p where the plastic arch liner is fitted. No other rot. I believe these are non-structural/non-MOT? Easy enough to patch that.
Boot floor - similar sized hole at the very rear edge, near the spare tyre, and some scabby points just ahead of that hole. Again, is the boot floor structural/MOT failure? Easy to remedy?? The area around the fuel filler as DA mentioned above is all good and solid.
Sills - fairly recent documented repair work to both sills (repair rather than replacement). Same again, are these structural for MOT? On the nearside one, where there is a vertical seam between the sill and the floor, that vertical seal is a bit manky and scabby - but not rotten to the point you can remove any metal from it.
Overall, the car has service history from brand new, has a stack of history & receipts from the past few years run to nearly £10k, and looks tidy & presentable except for the bonnet which needs re-painting (it was jet washed and started to peel). There are oil leaks underneath, one probably the sump gasket, the other (worse) from the front of the gearbox somewhere, but generally I think it's quite decent. It's also (IMO) very cheap - but the (private) seller, who seems very genuine, has very valid & personal reasons why he just needs it to go.
I just can't decide whether I really want it or not!
Some bits of welding - probably minor. An excuse to buy yourself a nice new shiny thing AKA a mig welder
Sump leaks. Mine had them - uses the rubber/cork gasket. Solved by cleaning the surfaces, light smear of hylomar, new gasket, clean the sump bolts & refit with a little loctite on each one otherwise they can work loose despite the spring washers.
Is it a gearbox oil leak or an engine oil leak? Should be easy to determine which fluid it is. Sure it isn't the leaky sump gasket & oil being blown backwards? If its engine oil coming from the drain hole in the bottom of the bellhousing then the likely cause is the rear crankshaft seal & that's gearbox off or engine out - been there, done that (& there's a couple of points to bear in mind if it is) If its ATF then it will be the input seal of the gearbox - engine out or gearbox off.
Sump leaks. Mine had them - uses the rubber/cork gasket. Solved by cleaning the surfaces, light smear of hylomar, new gasket, clean the sump bolts & refit with a little loctite on each one otherwise they can work loose despite the spring washers.
Is it a gearbox oil leak or an engine oil leak? Should be easy to determine which fluid it is. Sure it isn't the leaky sump gasket & oil being blown backwards? If its engine oil coming from the drain hole in the bottom of the bellhousing then the likely cause is the rear crankshaft seal & that's gearbox off or engine out - been there, done that (& there's a couple of points to bear in mind if it is) If its ATF then it will be the input seal of the gearbox - engine out or gearbox off.
Thanks! I own a MIG welder already - I have a Defender, I'm given to believe that in such cases, MIG ownership is just as compulsory as tax & insurance? 
I've had the engine and box out of the Defender and whilst that's a *little* easier to get to than the RRC, it doesn't completely freak me.
I spent the day trying to talk myself out of buying this but I think I have come to the realisation that if I don't, I'm going to regret it when they're all £50k and out of reach, so I'm likely to be calling the seller again tomorrow
I've had the engine and box out of the Defender and whilst that's a *little* easier to get to than the RRC, it doesn't completely freak me.
I spent the day trying to talk myself out of buying this but I think I have come to the realisation that if I don't, I'm going to regret it when they're all £50k and out of reach, so I'm likely to be calling the seller again tomorrow
Just to enlarge on the comment about 'a couple of things to bear in mind' if its the crankshaft seal.
Mine's an automatic. I removed the box, leaving the engine in place.
I thoroughly recommend making up the special tool shown in the manual whichever box you have. This bolts to the bottom of the box & to the top of a trolley jack & makes it straightforward. Otherwise you are wrestling a very large, unbalanced & very heavy lump of metal.
Be sure the vehicle is high enough to get the box out from underneath if you need to - wheels on the ground it may not be (Guess how I found that out!)
When pulling an auto box back from the engine be sure the torque converter doesn't slide forward. Either wedge or wire it in position. If it falls off - its also VERY heavy - there is also a lot of ATF inside it! Once its fallen off unless you can stand the box on end it is a total b$£"%&d to get back on. It MUST be seated to the depth specified as it drives the gearbox pump & if it isn't correctly engaged it WILL split this pump on reassembly to the engine. No pump = no pressure = no drive & you get to take it all off again to fit a new pump. The TC must be fitted to the gearbox, not the engine. Don't forget to put some sort of support to keep the engine up before separation.
The new crank seal must be fitted with its outer edge & the mating surface of the block absolutely bone dry & free of any oil or grease. If not, it can unseat. I will only use a seal from a franchised dealer not from A.N.Other supplier.
When refitting the box it helps to have a couple of long studs screwed into the block. You can then line these up with the appropriate holes on the bellhousing & it makes life much easier. Once its back on remove the studs & fit the normal bolts
Mine's an automatic. I removed the box, leaving the engine in place.
I thoroughly recommend making up the special tool shown in the manual whichever box you have. This bolts to the bottom of the box & to the top of a trolley jack & makes it straightforward. Otherwise you are wrestling a very large, unbalanced & very heavy lump of metal.
Be sure the vehicle is high enough to get the box out from underneath if you need to - wheels on the ground it may not be (Guess how I found that out!)
When pulling an auto box back from the engine be sure the torque converter doesn't slide forward. Either wedge or wire it in position. If it falls off - its also VERY heavy - there is also a lot of ATF inside it! Once its fallen off unless you can stand the box on end it is a total b$£"%&d to get back on. It MUST be seated to the depth specified as it drives the gearbox pump & if it isn't correctly engaged it WILL split this pump on reassembly to the engine. No pump = no pressure = no drive & you get to take it all off again to fit a new pump. The TC must be fitted to the gearbox, not the engine. Don't forget to put some sort of support to keep the engine up before separation.
The new crank seal must be fitted with its outer edge & the mating surface of the block absolutely bone dry & free of any oil or grease. If not, it can unseat. I will only use a seal from a franchised dealer not from A.N.Other supplier.
When refitting the box it helps to have a couple of long studs screwed into the block. You can then line these up with the appropriate holes on the bellhousing & it makes life much easier. Once its back on remove the studs & fit the normal bolts
Edited by paintman on Saturday 13th December 09:37
I just posted this on the "Show us" thread but here's an intro to the beastie:
.
The original eBay listing was one I mentioned elsewhere on here, but it's this one. Apparently the winning bidder didn't show up to collect and made various excuses. I stepped in and paid very significantly less than the winning bid price
It drives very nicely. No clonks, no rattles, no noises. There is a little more play in the steering than I would like but I'm hoping that will adjust out. The brakes work very well indeed but have about 0.005" pedal travel between off and fully on. Some sites say that's normal, but I believe the brake system is similar to the P38 and my old P38 wasn't like it. It's perfectly drivable but takes some getting used to.
So, the immediate issues are:
1. The starting problem. I have a large list of things to try. Sometimes it starts instantly, sometimes it just doesn't want to know. However, when driving and you boot it hard, it misfires. It's worse on gas than on petrol but does it on both. Planning to check reluctor clearance and advance/retard mech for a kick-off, and also to clean all the ECU etc earths. The LPG system is only just over a year old (installed at a cost of £1900, receipt held) so I might try going back to the installer as well. It has a K&N filter screwed on the end of the MAF, not sure how long that has been there, still looks quite new, but I wonder whether that isn;t helping (although the MAF should still meter as the filter is downstream?). Will keep an eye out for an original air box, unless anyone here has one for sale?
2. The bloody sunroof leaks! And has knackered the headlining on the blind (the headlining is on it's way out anyway). I'm hoping it is the drains which are blocked and that I can clear them.
3. And, probably as a result of the above over a long period of time, I have found my first hole
I took the carpets and sound-deadening up and it was quite scabby under the driver's heel; there were no holes, but a little prodding and scraping later and I can see a saucer-sized piece of the driveway. Gah. Not a disaster, I'll let a piece of metal in there. Other than the two very small holes in one inner wing (non-structural??) and the boot floor (likewise?), I haven't discovered anywhere else with missing steel….yet. If this turns out to be the extent of the welding required I won't be cross.
Also, it has a stainless "sports" exhaust on it which really doesn't suit it. Sounds nice but it's too noisy for a nice old barge, so I will probably change that back to standard. I need to take a tape to the exhaust components and see whether I can force them to make friends with the 90.
After that, well, I haven't decided what I'll do with it yet. As the picture shows, I'm slightly overrun with V8 4x4s
but as I've always said, you can never have too many V8s. Initial thoughts are fix it, drive it a bit, move it on - or I might stash it away in a moisture-free cocoon to help with the retirement fund
. The original eBay listing was one I mentioned elsewhere on here, but it's this one. Apparently the winning bidder didn't show up to collect and made various excuses. I stepped in and paid very significantly less than the winning bid price
It drives very nicely. No clonks, no rattles, no noises. There is a little more play in the steering than I would like but I'm hoping that will adjust out. The brakes work very well indeed but have about 0.005" pedal travel between off and fully on. Some sites say that's normal, but I believe the brake system is similar to the P38 and my old P38 wasn't like it. It's perfectly drivable but takes some getting used to.
So, the immediate issues are:
1. The starting problem. I have a large list of things to try. Sometimes it starts instantly, sometimes it just doesn't want to know. However, when driving and you boot it hard, it misfires. It's worse on gas than on petrol but does it on both. Planning to check reluctor clearance and advance/retard mech for a kick-off, and also to clean all the ECU etc earths. The LPG system is only just over a year old (installed at a cost of £1900, receipt held) so I might try going back to the installer as well. It has a K&N filter screwed on the end of the MAF, not sure how long that has been there, still looks quite new, but I wonder whether that isn;t helping (although the MAF should still meter as the filter is downstream?). Will keep an eye out for an original air box, unless anyone here has one for sale?
2. The bloody sunroof leaks! And has knackered the headlining on the blind (the headlining is on it's way out anyway). I'm hoping it is the drains which are blocked and that I can clear them.
3. And, probably as a result of the above over a long period of time, I have found my first hole
I took the carpets and sound-deadening up and it was quite scabby under the driver's heel; there were no holes, but a little prodding and scraping later and I can see a saucer-sized piece of the driveway. Gah. Not a disaster, I'll let a piece of metal in there. Other than the two very small holes in one inner wing (non-structural??) and the boot floor (likewise?), I haven't discovered anywhere else with missing steel….yet. If this turns out to be the extent of the welding required I won't be cross.Also, it has a stainless "sports" exhaust on it which really doesn't suit it. Sounds nice but it's too noisy for a nice old barge, so I will probably change that back to standard. I need to take a tape to the exhaust components and see whether I can force them to make friends with the 90.
After that, well, I haven't decided what I'll do with it yet. As the picture shows, I'm slightly overrun with V8 4x4s
but as I've always said, you can never have too many V8s. Initial thoughts are fix it, drive it a bit, move it on - or I might stash it away in a moisture-free cocoon to help with the retirement fund Nice.
Personally, what I think about these cars currently is that if you slowly plod through fixing all the issues and collecting replacement trim bits where appropriate you simply add value to cars that are now appreciating. I think the key is to not spend silly money or to make changes away from factory.
I spent a couple of hours this afternoon replacing some worn trim parts on one of mine having taken a few months to collect mint replacements on eBay.
What's so great about them is that when you get to a bit you can't work out then you can go to the web and get an answer really quickly, like with Landies.
Personally, what I think about these cars currently is that if you slowly plod through fixing all the issues and collecting replacement trim bits where appropriate you simply add value to cars that are now appreciating. I think the key is to not spend silly money or to make changes away from factory.
I spent a couple of hours this afternoon replacing some worn trim parts on one of mine having taken a few months to collect mint replacements on eBay.
What's so great about them is that when you get to a bit you can't work out then you can go to the web and get an answer really quickly, like with Landies.
CAPP0 said:
1. The starting problem. I have a large list of things to try. Sometimes it starts instantly, sometimes it just doesn't want to know. However, when driving and you boot it hard, it misfires. It's worse on gas than on petrol but does it on both. Planning to check reluctor clearance and advance/retard mech for a kick-off, and also to clean all the ECU etc earths. The LPG system is only just over a year old (installed at a cost of £1900, receipt held) so I might try going back to the installer as well. It has a K&N filter screwed on the end of the MAF, not sure how long that has been there, still looks quite new, but I wonder whether that isn;t helping (although the MAF should still meter as the filter is downstream?). Will keep an eye out for an original air box, unless anyone here has one for sale?
Any damp under the bonnet mixed with dirt on the leads or coil chimney? Dry inside the dizzy cap?As it does it on both fuels it suggests the fault is with the ignition & not the fuelling.
1. Genuine leads.
2. New plugs. NGK recommended by many.
3. New, genuine parts dizzy cap.
4. New, genuine parts rotor arm.
Cheapie or pattern part 3 & 4 are common causes of issues (& I can say that with certainty for a pattern cap which manifested itself as an occasional misfire under load) Don't use the riveted type rotor arm. if you struggle, then I understand the ones from simonBBC are good. http://www.simonbbc.com/
I assume you are aware of how to remove the rotor arm? - I'm not being funny, incorrect removal can disengage the auto advance weights. You need to press down on the reluctor (8-pointed star shaped item under the rotor as you pull the rotor off so the shaft doesn't come up as well. If the rotor is stuck it may need to be broken up to remove it. This is NOT mentioned in any of the manuals.
Get it running right on petrol before sorting the gas.
Edited by paintman on Saturday 3rd January 00:04
Cheers for the pointers there Paintman. I was/am aware of the quality issues with dizzy parts. I'll check the receipts, I know some of the parts were replaced fairly recently (the leads for example) so I'll try and find out whether decent-quality stuff was used or not. It's a fairly hefty misfire when it goes, I'd say more than, for example, a single plug breaking down. I'm sure we'll get there!
It also seems very significantly down on power on gas. I've never had an LPG vehicle before so I don't know what to expect but whilst I thought it would be a little less powerful, this feels like a big old drop when you switch over.
I still have a possible vacuum leak at the back of my mind. I'll have a crack when it's slightly dryer and slightly warmer outside!
It also seems very significantly down on power on gas. I've never had an LPG vehicle before so I don't know what to expect but whilst I thought it would be a little less powerful, this feels like a big old drop when you switch over.
I still have a possible vacuum leak at the back of my mind. I'll have a crack when it's slightly dryer and slightly warmer outside!
Gas needs a lot more advance than petrol to run at its best. There are devices that automatically do this when you switch over.
If there is a major drop in power when on gas it says something's wrong & I think as you say you would be best talking to the original fitters.
If you do a sudden footdown on gas & it backfires (usually a flashback as gas in the inlet manifold means there is something to burn & this can damage AFMs, esp the older flapper variety) then I'd be suspecting a weak mixture.
Mine's very basic - BLOS carb fitted as the RRC pic in this link: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLOS-Propane-Carburetor-... - & the timing is as advanced as it will go so I can switch to petrol without issue. I do toy with the idea of fitting an electronic advance/retard but I've not done anything about it yet.
If there is a major drop in power when on gas it says something's wrong & I think as you say you would be best talking to the original fitters.
If you do a sudden footdown on gas & it backfires (usually a flashback as gas in the inlet manifold means there is something to burn & this can damage AFMs, esp the older flapper variety) then I'd be suspecting a weak mixture.
Mine's very basic - BLOS carb fitted as the RRC pic in this link: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLOS-Propane-Carburetor-... - & the timing is as advanced as it will go so I can switch to petrol without issue. I do toy with the idea of fitting an electronic advance/retard but I've not done anything about it yet.
Edited by paintman on Saturday 3rd January 15:50
I know that one of my bikes is VERY fussy about using the right oil, and the right amount, on the filter otherwise it runs like a dog - although there is little in the way of electrics/electronics involved.
I do want to get rid of the K&N but I'm not quite sure which original air filter I need. There seem to be either an airbox type, or a "cylinder with a trumpet" type. There are some mountings right at the front of the bay, on the nearside, which lead me to believe it might have had the airbox type. Nothing around on eBay atm, I'll keep hunting.
I do want to get rid of the K&N but I'm not quite sure which original air filter I need. There seem to be either an airbox type, or a "cylinder with a trumpet" type. There are some mountings right at the front of the bay, on the nearside, which lead me to believe it might have had the airbox type. Nothing around on eBay atm, I'll keep hunting.
Mine runs a K+N filter. I suspect the original airbox probably came to grief, possibly as a result of a backfire. Certainly the under bonnet insulation shows evidence of a small incident! If you boot it and the gas tank is nearly empty then a resounding pop can be heard. I am going to investigate something to stop this at my next service
I can't say I've had any real issues. Certainly there is a little loss of power on lpg but not much.
I can't say I've had any real issues. Certainly there is a little loss of power on lpg but not much.
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