Range Rover Vogue stolen last night.
Discussion
I've resurrected this thread because this has now come on top for Land Rover.
http://uk.gotnewswire.com/news/insurance-companies...
After mine was stolen last year using this technique a well-spoken chap from Land Rover HQ called me to tell me that Land Rover categorically didn't have a security problem. No problem at all. Any mention of there being a problem was poppycock and nonsense...
I thought he protested too much and that they knew very well they had a problem.
I pointed out to them that they shouldn't have this issue because this sort of vulnerability had been identified in other marques several years before. "Nonsense" came the reply. Except it wasn't of course.
I must say that Land Rover went out their way to not acknowledge the elephant in the room and, it would seem, put some pressure on the dealership to behave in a similar manner. This, unfortunately, is pretty typical of Land Rover.
Fortunately Plod did a good job and brought the criminals to book and a confiscation order ensured that all my costs were met.
http://uk.gotnewswire.com/news/insurance-companies...
After mine was stolen last year using this technique a well-spoken chap from Land Rover HQ called me to tell me that Land Rover categorically didn't have a security problem. No problem at all. Any mention of there being a problem was poppycock and nonsense...
I thought he protested too much and that they knew very well they had a problem.
I pointed out to them that they shouldn't have this issue because this sort of vulnerability had been identified in other marques several years before. "Nonsense" came the reply. Except it wasn't of course.
I must say that Land Rover went out their way to not acknowledge the elephant in the room and, it would seem, put some pressure on the dealership to behave in a similar manner. This, unfortunately, is pretty typical of Land Rover.
Fortunately Plod did a good job and brought the criminals to book and a confiscation order ensured that all my costs were met.
Eleven said:
After mine was stolen last year using this technique a well-spoken chap from Land Rover HQ called me to tell me that Land Rover categorically didn't have a security problem. No problem at all. Any mention of there being a problem was poppycock and nonsense...
They will never categorically admit there was a fault as then they have to issue a recall and it also will leave them open for damages claims.When BMW released the update to deal with this issue it was done as an "enhancement" and not a recall for this very reason. They didn't even write to owners telling them the "enhancement" was available initially...the idea was it would be a firmware update when a car was serviced. IIRC correctly they did eventually write to people because of the press coverage.
Oh and don't expect any coverage on the PH front page for a while either, the BMW thread was running for well over a year before they covered it..........they do want access to cars for test drives after all. Providing a service to the people that make the site isn't top priority though as this is now in the main stream press they may cover it quicker.
While PH may not want to write about it, and Land Rover denies it, Insurance companies have taken a more realistic approach:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The discussion on the link above is a farce. I have replied to it as follows:
Having read the whole of this thread, most of you guys have missed a great opportunity to send a strong message to JLR from the UK that we won't continue to buy their vehicles, never mind keep them, if our insurance premiums increase or are denied as a direct result of their negligence to resolve this security issue, which is real and proven. Don't forget that sought after Jags like the F-Type use the same systems as the LR range. This is a massive issue for JLR that they are failing to address publically because we are allowing them to do so.
Here on PH you guys are bickering about whether a FFRR is appropriate for use in London. Off topic guys, and I expected better from our US JLR asscociate. If JLR are reading this thread, and they will be, they will be laughing at the lack of considered response from the most respected UK car forum (I am assuming this is the case for PH?).
May be JLR don't care about the UK market too much nowadays and are concentrating on the U.S./Asia market, who may not have this security issue yet? That's their choice. But serious brand issues like this carry fast over social media!
So here's my message to JLR. As a 3 times and present FFRR owner presently deciding whether to buy a new FFRR, an owner of an Evoque with a new Discovery Sport on order (keyless!), and also an owner of a F-Type V8S, if JLR don't address this security issue publically very soon I am going to dispose of all my JLR vehicles and do my best to explain to joe public internationally why I have taken this decision. What alternative do I have if I can't leave my vehicle about the UK without the real likelihood of it not being there when I return, and why should I pay increased insurance premiums for an issue outside of my control?
JLR are welcome to get in touch if they wish. I doubt they will unless we collectively make sufficient noise and publicity.
Anyone else going to take a stand on this specific matter? Or are you guys going to carry on bickering?
Having read the whole of this thread, most of you guys have missed a great opportunity to send a strong message to JLR from the UK that we won't continue to buy their vehicles, never mind keep them, if our insurance premiums increase or are denied as a direct result of their negligence to resolve this security issue, which is real and proven. Don't forget that sought after Jags like the F-Type use the same systems as the LR range. This is a massive issue for JLR that they are failing to address publically because we are allowing them to do so.
Here on PH you guys are bickering about whether a FFRR is appropriate for use in London. Off topic guys, and I expected better from our US JLR asscociate. If JLR are reading this thread, and they will be, they will be laughing at the lack of considered response from the most respected UK car forum (I am assuming this is the case for PH?).
May be JLR don't care about the UK market too much nowadays and are concentrating on the U.S./Asia market, who may not have this security issue yet? That's their choice. But serious brand issues like this carry fast over social media!
So here's my message to JLR. As a 3 times and present FFRR owner presently deciding whether to buy a new FFRR, an owner of an Evoque with a new Discovery Sport on order (keyless!), and also an owner of a F-Type V8S, if JLR don't address this security issue publically very soon I am going to dispose of all my JLR vehicles and do my best to explain to joe public internationally why I have taken this decision. What alternative do I have if I can't leave my vehicle about the UK without the real likelihood of it not being there when I return, and why should I pay increased insurance premiums for an issue outside of my control?
JLR are welcome to get in touch if they wish. I doubt they will unless we collectively make sufficient noise and publicity.
Anyone else going to take a stand on this specific matter? Or are you guys going to carry on bickering?
To be fair, the other thread was taken off topic by just one or two people. The majority were posting in a similar manner to your post.
I agree that it's a serious problem. I'm also going to be in the market for a new FFRR having owned my last one for 6 years from new. Quite simply, this puts me off as I don't want to have to resort to clunky steering wheel locks again when the manufacturer needs to take responsibility and fix the problem.
I agree that it's a serious problem. I'm also going to be in the market for a new FFRR having owned my last one for 6 years from new. Quite simply, this puts me off as I don't want to have to resort to clunky steering wheel locks again when the manufacturer needs to take responsibility and fix the problem.
Eleven said:
How would you propose we do that?
Take a look at the other thread above. Some people have already worked it out. Hint, PH collective acting in a coordinated manner combined with social media. Would make a pleasant change from the usual small minded bickering that takes precedence on PH nowadays.
EdJ said:
To be fair, the other thread was taken off topic by just one or two people. The majority were posting in a similar manner to your post.
I agree that it's a serious problem. I'm also going to be in the market for a new FFRR having owned my last one for 6 years from new. Quite simply, this puts me off as I don't want to have to resort to clunky steering wheel locks again when the manufacturer needs to take responsibility and fix the problem.
Exactly. What we need to do now is line up a few more similarly placed members from several forums and get JLR's attention. I want the to resolve this matter so I can buy a new FFRR, so it's a win-win once JLR decide to deal with the issue. I think a Twitter campaign might be the best way forward? I agree that it's a serious problem. I'm also going to be in the market for a new FFRR having owned my last one for 6 years from new. Quite simply, this puts me off as I don't want to have to resort to clunky steering wheel locks again when the manufacturer needs to take responsibility and fix the problem.
Not going to post on the other thread as there seems to be a lot of bickering etc going on.
I work for quite a large insurance company part of my role is to deal with High value Theft claims of which these fall under.
For quite sometime it was mainly BMW's that were targeted, about 5-6 months ago the BMW thefts dropped suddenly only to be replaced by a sharp increase in Land/Range Rover thefts.
Many vehicle systems are similar (Jaguars share similar technology) but haven't seen any of these being taken, the Range rovers etc are being targeted due to their usability in countries where a 4x4 can be quite usefull and where large cars are prestige.
Land rover know there is a problem, I had a case where a number of Range Rovers were recovered from a container in the Port of Tilbury.
JLR were trying to get access to the cars and stop them being returned to us/owner for sometime so that they could carry out their own investigation so for them to say they aren't aware of the matter is somewhat untrue.
This isn't to say they have done something wrong, essentially most modern cars (say in last 6-7 years) can be taken without keys it's just Range rovers are the preferred vehicle of choice.
These claims are becoming extremely costly and it's something that insurance companies won't just accept, problem is that persons who own these cars are quite wealthy so it would take a considerable increase in premiums for them to be deterred from owning prestige 4x4s.
I work for quite a large insurance company part of my role is to deal with High value Theft claims of which these fall under.
For quite sometime it was mainly BMW's that were targeted, about 5-6 months ago the BMW thefts dropped suddenly only to be replaced by a sharp increase in Land/Range Rover thefts.
Many vehicle systems are similar (Jaguars share similar technology) but haven't seen any of these being taken, the Range rovers etc are being targeted due to their usability in countries where a 4x4 can be quite usefull and where large cars are prestige.
Land rover know there is a problem, I had a case where a number of Range Rovers were recovered from a container in the Port of Tilbury.
JLR were trying to get access to the cars and stop them being returned to us/owner for sometime so that they could carry out their own investigation so for them to say they aren't aware of the matter is somewhat untrue.
This isn't to say they have done something wrong, essentially most modern cars (say in last 6-7 years) can be taken without keys it's just Range rovers are the preferred vehicle of choice.
These claims are becoming extremely costly and it's something that insurance companies won't just accept, problem is that persons who own these cars are quite wealthy so it would take a considerable increase in premiums for them to be deterred from owning prestige 4x4s.
55palfers said:
Well it's good to know someone is acknowledging, he is right in that it's an industry wide issue.Unfortunately whenever a manufacture releases a software update the thieves overcome it fairly quickly
ZOLLAR said:
Not going to post on the other thread as there seems to be a lot of bickering etc going on.
I work for quite a large insurance company part of my role is to deal with High value Theft claims of which these fall under.
For quite sometime it was mainly BMW's that were targeted, about 5-6 months ago the BMW thefts dropped suddenly only to be replaced by a sharp increase in Land/Range Rover thefts.
Many vehicle systems are similar (Jaguars share similar technology) but haven't seen any of these being taken, the Range rovers etc are being targeted due to their usability in countries where a 4x4 can be quite usefull and where large cars are prestige.
Land rover know there is a problem, I had a case where a number of Range Rovers were recovered from a container in the Port of Tilbury.
JLR were trying to get access to the cars and stop them being returned to us/owner for sometime so that they could carry out their own investigation so for them to say they aren't aware of the matter is somewhat untrue.
This isn't to say they have done something wrong, essentially most modern cars (say in last 6-7 years) can be taken without keys it's just Range rovers are the preferred vehicle of choice.
These claims are becoming extremely costly and it's something that insurance companies won't just accept, problem is that persons who own these cars are quite wealthy so it would take a considerable increase in premiums for them to be deterred from owning prestige 4x4s.
Interesting stuff Zollar.I work for quite a large insurance company part of my role is to deal with High value Theft claims of which these fall under.
For quite sometime it was mainly BMW's that were targeted, about 5-6 months ago the BMW thefts dropped suddenly only to be replaced by a sharp increase in Land/Range Rover thefts.
Many vehicle systems are similar (Jaguars share similar technology) but haven't seen any of these being taken, the Range rovers etc are being targeted due to their usability in countries where a 4x4 can be quite usefull and where large cars are prestige.
Land rover know there is a problem, I had a case where a number of Range Rovers were recovered from a container in the Port of Tilbury.
JLR were trying to get access to the cars and stop them being returned to us/owner for sometime so that they could carry out their own investigation so for them to say they aren't aware of the matter is somewhat untrue.
This isn't to say they have done something wrong, essentially most modern cars (say in last 6-7 years) can be taken without keys it's just Range rovers are the preferred vehicle of choice.
These claims are becoming extremely costly and it's something that insurance companies won't just accept, problem is that persons who own these cars are quite wealthy so it would take a considerable increase in premiums for them to be deterred from owning prestige 4x4s.
I can also confirm that the police had a meeting with Land Rover about a year ago on the very subject of why the vehicles were being so easily stolen.
But even if none of this were the case, Land Rover will have been aware of the vulnerability.
55palfers said:
Which says:"Hi
Land Rover is aware of a rise in the number of thefts of Land Rover products. The current Land Rover line-up continues to meet the insurance industry requirements as tested and agreed with the relevant insurance bodies, nevertheless the company has taken this issue very seriously and our engineering teams have been working in collaboration with insurance bodies and police forces to fully understand the attack risks facing Land Rover models. It is however important to remember that this is an industry-wide issue and not specific to Land Rover vehicles only.
We have released a number of security updates in the last 12 months and have further updates due this year. We are continually updating and improving our security systems to ensure we stay ahead of the criminals and the industry-wide problem which the motor industry in general is tackling on a daily basis.
Regards
Ryan"
Which is the sort of tone that I got when mine was nicked. It was very, "we don't have a problem, cars get stolen all the time, we are no more susceptible than other marques etc etc".
It seems that the insurance companies feel differently though.
It's good that LR are publically acknowledging there is an issue and they are addressing it in the short term. However, I believe there needs to be long term cross industry action to resolve this issue and the manufacturers should be publicising that this is their intention. A resolution to this issue that causes distress, inconvince and cost for their customers (not the manufacturers) is within their technological capability. All that is preventing them from sorting this issue is the balance between it affecting their sales and the cost of resolving it. Presently their sales are unaffected so why should they incur the additional costs to sort it in the long term?
@ Eleven,
That reads just like the blurb all us BMW owners got when we complained about the poor security on our cars. Quite how "meeting industry standards" and "others have this issue" make things better I do not know.
Any manufacturer who insists on creating cars without a physical key in the light of whats happened not only in the UK but all over Europe deserves to have a drastic reduction in sales. This issue has been around for 3 years+ now.
BMW owners, like I, got an optional update which I believe has stopped the thefts to a large degree (temporarily - as it's just software though), but I'd suggest your best bet is to move the ODB port out of reach of the window, or hide it completely as I have, and use some kind of old fashioned manual security like a Disclok. Oh yes, and upgrade the alarm as well to it goes ballistic when even something like a small window is broken.
Quite what vehicle I'll buy next I do not know. One thing is for sure, I want a regular key, none of this 'fob' business. How was it that my mk1 Focus RS was pretty much unsteable without a key, yet my BMW that cost far more - and JLR products costing more again, are not? Answer? The Key. One required cutting to be replicated, the other requires nothing but a few things purchased of eBay.
That reads just like the blurb all us BMW owners got when we complained about the poor security on our cars. Quite how "meeting industry standards" and "others have this issue" make things better I do not know.
Any manufacturer who insists on creating cars without a physical key in the light of whats happened not only in the UK but all over Europe deserves to have a drastic reduction in sales. This issue has been around for 3 years+ now.
BMW owners, like I, got an optional update which I believe has stopped the thefts to a large degree (temporarily - as it's just software though), but I'd suggest your best bet is to move the ODB port out of reach of the window, or hide it completely as I have, and use some kind of old fashioned manual security like a Disclok. Oh yes, and upgrade the alarm as well to it goes ballistic when even something like a small window is broken.
Quite what vehicle I'll buy next I do not know. One thing is for sure, I want a regular key, none of this 'fob' business. How was it that my mk1 Focus RS was pretty much unsteable without a key, yet my BMW that cost far more - and JLR products costing more again, are not? Answer? The Key. One required cutting to be replicated, the other requires nothing but a few things purchased of eBay.
As someone else said, a determined thief will usually get what he's after.
But, placing security issues to one side for a second, keyless fobs do make day to day life easier for car owners, they really do. So, I think there is still a case for the keyless fob to remain however technology needs to be built around the key so it is a "safe" option.
As per my opening statement, an educated thief will get round most problems but, why don't car manufacturers adopt a safer approach. Some ideas include:
But, placing security issues to one side for a second, keyless fobs do make day to day life easier for car owners, they really do. So, I think there is still a case for the keyless fob to remain however technology needs to be built around the key so it is a "safe" option.
As per my opening statement, an educated thief will get round most problems but, why don't car manufacturers adopt a safer approach. Some ideas include:
- Finger print recognition on the start button, like the Audi A8
- Number pad with a pin code needed to start
- Configerable dual purpose dash buttons e.g. a pre-determined button normally used for something else (e.g. rear heated screen button) must be pressed before the start button. The owner chooses which button is the first button - a thief wouldn't know which one to press.
- When the ignition is turned on, the dash could ask a security question with 4 multiple choice answers which are sleected by using the controls on the steering wheel, e.g. Mothers maiden name, place of birth etc. 1 wrong answer = 1 minute delay, 2 wrong answers = 2 minute delay, 3 wrong answers = 5 minute delay, 4 wrong answers = 30 minute delay.
- The above could even work with the voice recognition system - you get in the car and it talks to you: "Good morning John, what's your favorite animal?" you say "cow" and it starts. You could configure it to ask anything and start on any response - imagine the fun!...
FastRich said:
As someone else said, a determined thief will usually get what he's after.
But, placing security issues to one side for a second, keyless fobs do make day to day life easier for car owners, they really do. So, I think there is still a case for the keyless fob to remain however technology needs to be built around the key so it is a "safe" option.
I disagree. Keyless just means you don't need to put a key in a hole and twist it. I have my car key on a bunch and they don't live in my pocket. It would be easier if there was a hole in the dash where they could hang, to be honest, and whilst they are there a quick twist left and right to stop and start is FAR easier than having a separate button.But, placing security issues to one side for a second, keyless fobs do make day to day life easier for car owners, they really do. So, I think there is still a case for the keyless fob to remain however technology needs to be built around the key so it is a "safe" option.
We'll have to agree to disagree here, or we'll be accused of bickering 
but I love it.
The RR key is so big I have to keep it seperate from my house keys anyway so keyless saves me fishing around for a key. I just walk up to the car, get in, press a button and drive off. It's so easy! Yes, I agree it's not difficult to turn a key a couple of times but it's not difficult to tie shoe laces either but there's still a market for slip on shoes.....
Another bonus to keyless is that if your car key is on a bunch of other keys, hanging out of the ignition, when you drive over bumps they jingle and clatter. My previous car had a hole in the dash that the key slotted into - my keys were forever bouncing off the dash making a racket.
I suppose keyless will never be for everybody in the same way that slip on shoes aren't for everybody, but it's nice to have the option to choose.
but I love it. The RR key is so big I have to keep it seperate from my house keys anyway so keyless saves me fishing around for a key. I just walk up to the car, get in, press a button and drive off. It's so easy! Yes, I agree it's not difficult to turn a key a couple of times but it's not difficult to tie shoe laces either but there's still a market for slip on shoes.....
Another bonus to keyless is that if your car key is on a bunch of other keys, hanging out of the ignition, when you drive over bumps they jingle and clatter. My previous car had a hole in the dash that the key slotted into - my keys were forever bouncing off the dash making a racket.
I suppose keyless will never be for everybody in the same way that slip on shoes aren't for everybody, but it's nice to have the option to choose.
Not sure if this has been circulated or whether it's old news but apparently 64 plate vehicles and onwards will soon be able to be registered on the owners phone via an app.
Even if a cloned key is created the owner will be able to remotely disable the car from their phone (signal and communication being available of course)
Even if a cloned key is created the owner will be able to remotely disable the car from their phone (signal and communication being available of course)
FastRich said:
As someone else said, a determined thief will usually get what he's after.
But, placing security issues to one side for a second, keyless fobs do make day to day life easier for car owners, they really do. So, I think there is still a case for the keyless fob to remain however technology needs to be built around the key so it is a "safe" option.
As per my opening statement, an educated thief will get round most problems but, why don't car manufacturers adopt a safer approach. Some ideas include:
I have a great idea which I think I might pitch to these manufacturers to save us owners from having to spend 10 minutes on a memory test before they can drive away. I'm going to call it "akei" and it will look like this - what do you think?But, placing security issues to one side for a second, keyless fobs do make day to day life easier for car owners, they really do. So, I think there is still a case for the keyless fob to remain however technology needs to be built around the key so it is a "safe" option.
As per my opening statement, an educated thief will get round most problems but, why don't car manufacturers adopt a safer approach. Some ideas include:
- Finger print recognition on the start button, like the Audi A8
- Number pad with a pin code needed to start
- Configerable dual purpose dash buttons e.g. a pre-determined button normally used for something else (e.g. rear heated screen button) must be pressed before the start button. The owner chooses which button is the first button - a thief wouldn't know which one to press.
- When the ignition is turned on, the dash could ask a security question with 4 multiple choice answers which are sleected by using the controls on the steering wheel, e.g. Mothers maiden name, place of birth etc. 1 wrong answer = 1 minute delay, 2 wrong answers = 2 minute delay, 3 wrong answers = 5 minute delay, 4 wrong answers = 30 minute delay.
- The above could even work with the voice recognition system - you get in the car and it talks to you: "Good morning John, what's your favorite animal?" you say "cow" and it starts. You could configure it to ask anything and start on any response - imagine the fun!...
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