Replacement for Defender - any information yet?

[Martin4x4]

unrepentant said:

To sell where?

India, one idea/opinion is the Defender tooling will go one of Tata's Indian Truck factories at Pune. Probably with an intermediate knock-down kit stage for major components .


I'm hoping for a revolutionary Land Rover concept would based on Hybrid driven Electric Wheel Hubs. It could have fully independent suspection would mean no axle to get bogged down. A fully independent drive to all four wheels without tranfer box or locking diffs. No need for a transmission, no diffs, no transfer box, no gear box for massive weight saving. It would be truely revolutionary.

Edited by Martin4x4 on Friday 15th August 21:38

[unrepentant]

Martin4x4 said:

unrepentant said:

To sell where?

India, one idea/opinion is the Defender tooling will go one of Tata's Indian Truck factories at Pune. Probably with an intermediate knock-down kit stage for major components .

Whose idea / opinion? I haven't heard it expressed by anyone from Land Rover. Why do you think the Indian market wants Defender? LR already have a plant in Pune assembling Freelander and XF.

[Martin4x4]

unrepentant said:

Martin4x4 said:

unrepentant said:

To sell where?

India, one idea/opinion is the Defender tooling will go one of Tata's Indian Truck factories at Pune. Probably with an intermediate knock-down kit stage for major components .

Whose idea / opinion? I haven't heard it expressed by anyone from Land Rover. Why do you think the Indian market wants Defender? LR already have a plant in Pune assembling Freelander and XF.

You are right that Tata/JLR have been very tight lipped about the Defender's future however I'm just communicating a view common amongst Commentators and enthusiasts. I'm not completly sold on the idea but it is entirely sensible and feasible. The question mark relates to the unknown that is the replacement and how it fits in the product range, which largely unknown to

However the least controversial aspect is that there would be an Indian market for a Defender class light utility vehicle, the question mark is over it will it be the existing vehicle or the replacement. Comparing it with the Freelander (or Jag) is just silly, as cars they are very different vehicles and very different markets.

Edited by Martin4x4 on Saturday 16th August 15:21

[unrepentant]

Martin4x4 said:

unrepentant said:

Martin4x4 said:

unrepentant said:

To sell where?

India, one idea/opinion is the Defender tooling will go one of Tata's Indian Truck factories at Pune. Probably with an intermediate knock-down kit stage for major components .

Whose idea / opinion? I haven't heard it expressed by anyone from Land Rover. Why do you think the Indian market wants Defender? LR already have a plant in Pune assembling Freelander and XF.

You are right that Tata/JLR have been very tight lipped about the Defender's future however I'm just communicating a view common amongst Commentators and enthusiasts. I'm not completly sold on the idea but it is entirely sensible and feasible. The question mark relates to the unknown that is the replacement and how it fits in the product range, which largely unknown to

However the least controversial aspect is that there would be an Indian market for a Defender class light utility vehicle, the question mark is over it will it be the existing vehicle or the replacement. Comparing it with the Freelander (or Jag) is just silly, as cars they are very different vehicles and very different markets.

The replacement will fit very well into the product range.

The refernce to Freelander and XF wasn't silly, it was to point out that assembly is already well underway. If there is demand for a light utility vehicle there is no reason preumably why new Defender can't be assembled in the same way as Freelander and XF.

[Martin4x4]

unrepentant said:

The replacement will fit very well into the product range.

The refernce to Freelander and XF wasn't silly, it was to point out that assembly is already well underway. If there is demand for a light utility vehicle there is no reason preumably why new Defender can't be assembled in the same way as Freelander and XF.

Unsubstained assumption. The issue is market segment not product range. If the replacement is the DC100 it will make for a crowded model range given the Freelander and Evoke.

The replacement needs to be different, a flexible base to balance between utility vehicle and lifestyle for the UK (Western) markets. It needs to be a similar price to current defender (or less) and meet latest and future safety regulations. It needs to work as an single cab off road 1 ton pickup, a off road tow vehicle, an off road people carrier like the 110 station wagon. The DC100 as presented doesn't fulfil any of those capabilities which is why many are sceptical that it is a genuine Defender replacement.

To be a viable utility vehicle for India it needs to be cheaper but doesn't need to meet new/future EU safety regs. The current defender potential meets these requirements in knock-down or Indian built versions. The DC100 doesn't, the Freelander doesn't, the evode doesn't, they are simply not suitable.

A genuine Defender replacement might we were is it? It could fulfil both roles but not the DC100 which doesn't. It fulfil the secondry market segment and Tata would be better sticking with the old defender or existing range for India if Tata decide their existing range give a better fit for that market .

[sausage76]

Its due in 2016 and the JLR number is L462

[mph1977]

unrepentant said:

skyrover said:

Defender production will continue abroad it seems where EU legislation does not apply

To sell where?

perhaps

Middle East, Africa, Turkey - using the all ready existant Otosan line in Turkey

South Asia by shipping Uk plant to India

[bakerstreet]

Martin4x4 said:

Unsubstained assumption. The issue is market segment not product range. If the replacement is the DC100 it will make for a crowded model range given the Freelander and Evoke.

The replacement needs to be different, a flexible base to balance between utility vehicle and lifestyle for the UK (Western) markets. It needs to be a similar price to current defender (or less) and meet latest and future safety regulations. It needs to work as an single cab off road 1 ton pickup, a off road tow vehicle, an off road people carrier like the 110 station wagon. The DC100 as presented doesn't fulfil any of those capabilities which is why many are sceptical that it is a genuine Defender replacement.

To be a viable utility vehicle for India it needs to be cheaper but doesn't need to meet new/future EU safety regs. The current defender potential meets these requirements in knock-down or Indian built versions. The DC100 doesn't, the Freelander doesn't, the evode doesn't, they are simply not suitable.

A genuine Defender replacement might we were is it? It could fulfil both roles but not the DC100 which doesn't. It fulfil the secondry market segment and Tata would be better sticking with the old defender or existing range for India if Tata decide their existing range give a better fit for that market .

Land Rover publicly announced that the DC100 wasn't the defender replacement.

If the replacement was arriving in 2015, I think we would have seen it by now.

I can't wait to see what LR come up with. Rover and BMW managed it with the Mini, so hopefully LR will get it right with the defender.

[DonkeyApple]

What capacity or desire to JLR have to produce a niche, low margin product when they have just taken on debt to expand to produce enormous numbers of the new small Jag or when they can earn 5 times more per sq ft of factory space building a Rangie?

I just think that while they are focussing on the new baby Jag, then the new Jag SUV as well as the new DiscoLander products they aren't going to be replacing the Defender with anything.

[mph1977]

DonkeyApple said:

What capacity or desire to JLR have to produce a niche, low margin product when they have just taken on debt to expand to produce enormous numbers of the new small Jag or when they can earn 5 times more per sq ft of factory space building a Rangie?

I just think that while they are focussing on the new baby Jag, then the new Jag SUV as well as the new DiscoLander products they aren't going to be replacing the Defender with anything.

1. Tata aren't BMW

2. the brand loses credibility

3. LRSV loses credibility

4. the defender provides capabilities otherwise unavailable ( the Toyota 'troop carrier' series 70 land crusier is the only thing near)

4a. Defender 90 pick up / hard top
4b. R-SOV / Pink panther
4c. WMIK
4d. 130 based Off road ambulance ( although the Disco 3/4 are big enough to take a ambulance trolley without drastic mods but still suffer from the Bolkow level poor workspace design that the Patrol GR based ambulances do )

[XTR2Turbo]

I don't understand the comments that Defender does not fit into the corporate Brand.

Almost all of the marketing plays on Landrover being the genuine off roader and not just an SUV such as X5, Q7 etc.

Many dealers have a series vehicle in the showroom or on display and posters in rugged locations.

JLR will need to replace the defender in some form with a vehicle targeting, at least in part the same audience, to sustain it's bloodline and heritage.

Even if the project breaks even it's essential to the brand. The challenge is doing something that is credible to the brand, is not a commercial flop and builds rather than undermines the heritage. It is probably one of the toughest product development challenges I can think of.

as an aside Defender production ends early December 2015 and last orders August. At the moment there is about a 3 month waiting list.

[unrepentant]

DonkeyApple said:

What capacity or desire to JLR have to produce a niche, low margin product when they have just taken on debt to expand to produce enormous numbers of the new small Jag or when they can earn 5 times more per sq ft of factory space building a Rangie?

I just think that while they are focussing on the new baby Jag, then the new Jag SUV as well as the new DiscoLander products they aren't going to be replacing the Defender with anything.

New Defender is coming, I'm guessing MY 2017. No reason it needs to be niche or low margin....

[unrepentant]

XTR2Turbo said:

I don't understand the comments that Defender does not fit into the corporate Brand.

Almost all of the marketing plays on Landrover being the genuine off roader and not just an SUV such as X5, Q7 etc.

Many dealers have a series vehicle in the showroom or on display and posters in rugged locations.

JLR will need to replace the defender in some form with a vehicle targeting, at least in part the same audience, to sustain it's bloodline and heritage.

All LR's are very capable off road and the DNA runs through the entire range, it's not unique to Defender.

"Old" Defender sales are minimal. In major markets outside the UK, the car has not been sold in the USA since 1997 and AFAIK it has never been part of the offer in China.

[DonkeyApple]

mph1977 said:

DonkeyApple said:

What capacity or desire to JLR have to produce a niche, low margin product when they have just taken on debt to expand to produce enormous numbers of the new small Jag or when they can earn 5 times more per sq ft of factory space building a Rangie?

I just think that while they are focussing on the new baby Jag, then the new Jag SUV as well as the new DiscoLander products they aren't going to be replacing the Defender with anything.

1. Tata aren't BMW

2. the brand loses credibility

3. LRSV loses credibility

4. the defender provides capabilities otherwise unavailable ( the Toyota 'troop carrier' series 70 land crusier is the only thing near)

4a. Defender 90 pick up / hard top
4b. R-SOV / Pink panther
4c. WMIK
4d. 130 based Off road ambulance ( although the Disco 3/4 are big enough to take a ambulance trolley without drastic mods but still suffer from the Bolkow level poor workspace design that the Patrol GR based ambulances do )

I suspect we risk falling into a UK centric perspective.

In the New Economies where money is rife and class is in limited supply you will find that many buyers of JLR products are appalled at the idea of a peasant wagon.

That's why you don't see Lamborghini or Porsche showing off old tractors to Chinese pig farmers who have just become billionaires and are desperate to bury all traces of their peasant past as rapidly and deeply as possible. You very obviously can't do that if you are seen driving around in a farmers' car. They types of people buying JLR products at present are absolutely terrified at the concept of being seen anywhere near a peasant wagon. It'll be generations before any class of social comfort exists in those ranks.

You'd need to do what Merc did to the G Wagon to get sales.

The commercial market really is dead. JLR sell a few thousand Defenders a year and most of those are bought as trinkets for having fun with.

JLR has just loaded up with debt to finance it's first mass volume product since it's failed X Type venture. Everything is focussed on the baby Jag because if that fails to take serious market share then they have a very big problem.

JLR are currently a low volume, high margin business. The Defender doesn't fit as it has no real margin at all. Only if the baby Jag concept works will they have become a high volume, low margin manufacturer and then they could contemplate taking on the debt to then take on the Japanese utility market. But it is important to ask why would a firm who specialises so brilliantly in selling up market products to the wealthy suddenly be able to sell down market products to the poor? How will they get a third world, goat farmer into their Mayfair showroom and why would they want to? Vending a poverty product will require a new selling network.

All the defenders ever built will still be tooling around for all to see for the next 20 years so still promoting JLR. Not adding any new ones from the factory doesn't really matter. And they can still put them in shop windows. The car won't stop existing.

I simply cannot see any commercial benefit to JLR unless they glitz it up to be a high margin luxury product.

What I have a feeling will happen is that they will license the car and lease or sell the tooling to a business that is structured in such a way that building a few thousand Defenders a year is hugely profitable. A firm much smaller than JLR for who the Defender is a cracking business. A firm that could retain the overseas sales and utilise SVA, if possible, to keep trinket sales in the UK.

My personal gamble is that JLR will not directly replace the Defender for some time. You only have to look at their capacity allocations to see there is no room. In terms of opportunity cost the defender is a massive loss maker. If it does ever come back it will have to be as the G Wagon has, a very expensive toy.

I think someone like Bowler will take over Defender production. Current sales would add a significant amount to their bottom line. But they have gotten more and more into bed with JLR so there are clearly strong trust and affiliations. Plus, they have invested quite a lot recently into the Defender to try and increase sales lower down and monetise the Bowler brand more.

I don't know how SVA rules work or whether they can get around the regulatory hurdles facing the Dedender but if they can then I think the Defender product has a good life ahead in the hands of a smaller manufacturer.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Saturday 23 August 09:06

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

I suspect we risk falling into a UK centric perspective.

In the New Economies where money is rife and class is in limited supply you will find that many buyers of JLR products are appalled at the idea of a peasant wagon.

That's why you don't see Lamborghini or Porsche showing off old tractors to Chinese pig farmers who have just become billionaires and are desperate to bury all traces of their peasant past as rapidly and deeply as possible. You very obviously can't do that if you are seen driving around in a farmers' car. They types of people buying JLR products at present are absolutely terrified at the concept of being seen anywhere near a peasant wagon. It'll be generations before any class of social comfort exists in those ranks.

You'd need to do what Merc did to the G Wagon to get sales.

The commercial market really is dead. JLR sell a few thousand Defenders a year and most of those are bought as trinkets for having fun with.

JLR has just loaded up with debt to finance it's first mass volume product since it's failed X Type venture. Everything is focussed on the baby Jag because if that fails to take serious market share then they have a very big problem.

JLR are currently a low volume, high margin business. The Defender doesn't fit as it has no real margin at all. Only if the baby Jag concept works will they have become a high volume, low margin manufacturer and then they could contemplate taking on the debt to then take on the Japanese utility market. But it is important to ask why would a firm who specialises so brilliantly in selling up market products to the wealthy suddenly be able to sell down market products to the poor? How will they get a third world, goat farmer into their Mayfair showroom and why would they want to? Vending a poverty product will require a new selling network.

All the defenders ever built will still be tooling around for all to see for the next 20 years so still promoting JLR. Not adding any new ones from the factory doesn't really matter. And they can still put them in shop windows. The car won't stop existing.

I simply cannot see any commercial benefit to JLR unless they glitz it up to be a high margin luxury product.

What I have a feeling will happen is that they will license the car and lease or sell the tooling to a business that is structured in such a way that building a few thousand Defenders a year is hugely profitable. A firm much smaller than JLR for who the Defender is a cracking business. A firm that could retain the overseas sales and utilise SVA, if possible, to keep trinket sales in the UK.

My personal gamble is that JLR will not directly replace the Defender for some time. You only have to look at their capacity allocations to see there is no room. In terms of opportunity cost the defender is a massive loss maker. If it does ever come back it will have to be as the G Wagon has, a very expensive toy.

I think someone like Bowler will take over Defender production. Current sales would add a significant amount to their bottom line. But they have gotten more and more into bed with JLR so there are clearly strong trust and affiliations. Plus, they have invested quite a lot recently into the Defender to try and increase sales lower down and monetise the Bowler brand more.

I don't know how SVA rules work or whether they can get around the regulatory hurdles facing the Dedender but if they can then I think the Defender product has a good life ahead in the hands of a smaller manufacturer.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Saturday 23 August 09:06

Very eloquently put and all spot on.

[mph1977]

DonkeyApple said:

I suspect we risk falling into a UK centric perspective.

In the New Economies where money is rife and class is in limited supply you will find that many buyers of JLR products are appalled at the idea of a peasant wagon.

however in Europe and the US the link with the series - Defender is a significant part of the brand

to address another poster - the defender is not sold in the US becasue the US light truck rules don;t accomodate it and becvasue it's NIH there's no easements - if jeep were stuck

if the Defender was compliant there would be significant sales in the US - part od the reason early defender values are so buoyant is the fact that sufficient aged vehciles can be imported to the US and rebuilt to left hand drive v8 petrols

DonkeyApple said:

That's why you don't see Lamborghini or Porsche showing off old tractors to Chinese pig farmers who have just become billionaires and are desperate to bury all traces of their peasant past as rapidly and deeply as possible. You very obviously can't do that if you are seen driving around in a farmers' car. They types of people buying JLR products at present are absolutely terrified at the concept of being seen anywhere near a peasant wagon. It'll be generations before any class of social comfort exists in those ranks.

however neither Lambo or Porsche are attempting to sell the best 4*4*byfar - which the Full Fat range rover has traded on sincxe the early days of the classic - on the basis that the FFRR is the right vehicle for the farmyard, the hunt / shoot / the opera ( whether gylndebourne or Town) or drawing up outside head office / expensive hotels

the Defender also has the impact of being the peasant wagon Brenda *actually* drives whether at sandringham or balmoral- ditto with Phil the greek and his Disco in windsor great park

DonkeyApple said:

You'd need to do what Merc did to the G Wagon to get sales.

the be honest the Gay-wagen is like LR still building the Classic just because

DonkeyApple said:

The commercial market really is dead. JLR sell a few thousand Defenders a year and most of those are bought as trinkets for having fun with.

other than those year sold into the utilities and ES market becasue there is nothing comparable except perhaps the Toyota Series 70 / troop carrier

the current Iveco daily and MB sprinter 4*4 offerings are better than previous attempts at a 4*4 light van but when push comes to shove the utilities and the emergency services have 2 go-to chassis for real off road work and that depends on the MAM required <3.5 tonne it's the defender 110, >3.5t the 130 and over 7.5 tonnes Unimog ...


JLR has just loaded up with debt to finance it's first mass volume product since it's failed X Type venture. Everything is focussed on the baby Jag because if that fails to take serious market share then they have a very big problem.

DonkeyApple said:

JLR are currently a low volume, high margin business. The Defender doesn't fit as it has no real margin at all. Only if the baby Jag concept works will they have become a high volume, low margin manufacturer and then they could contemplate taking on the debt to then take on the Japanese utility market. But it is important to ask why would a firm who specialises so brilliantly in selling up market products to the wealthy suddenly be able to sell down market products to the poor? How will they get a third world, goat farmer into their Mayfair showroom and why would they want to? Vending a poverty product will require a new selling network.

All the defenders ever built will still be tooling around for all to see for the next 20 years so still promoting JLR. Not adding any new ones from the factory doesn't really matter. And they can still put them in shop windows. The car won't stop existing.

I simply cannot see any commercial benefit to JLR unless they glitz it up to be a high margin luxury product.

the commercial benefit is the fact that it exists rather than being killed off leaving capability gaps

the Defender is far more than the 2 lengths and 5 body styles you can buy at retail

DonkeyApple said:

What I have a feeling will happen is that they will license the car and lease or sell the tooling to a business that is structured in such a way that building a few thousand Defenders a year is hugely profitable. A firm much smaller than JLR for who the Defender is a cracking business. A firm that could retain the overseas sales and utilise SVA, if possible, to keep trinket sales in the UK.

your so called 'trinket' sales are in fact a nice to have addon beyond the core purpose of the Defender Range

DonkeyApple said:

My personal gamble is that JLR will not directly replace the Defender for some time. You only have to look at their capacity allocations to see there is no room. In terms of opportunity cost the defender is a massive loss maker. If it does ever come back it will have to be as the G Wagon has, a very expensive toy.

In terms of brand damage the absence of the Defender will do the company huge damage - defenders have beaten 'not invented here' to gain US military and various European government/ ES sales. comparisions with Jeep are irrelevant as Jeep has not significantly operated in government sales and utlities for many years - unlike LR and Toyota

[unrepentant]

mph1977 said:

however in Europe and the US the link with the series - Defender is a significant part of the brand

to address another poster - the defender is not sold in the US becasue the US light truck rules don;t accomodate it and becvasue it's NIH there's no easements - if jeep were stuck

if the Defender was compliant there would be significant sales in the US - part od the reason early defender values are so buoyant is the fact that sufficient aged vehciles can be imported to the US and rebuilt to left hand drive v8 petrols

I disagree completely. The Defender has not been offered here since 1997 and prior to that was sold in very tiny quantities. Most LR buyers in the US are unaware of the Defender, the company here was launched as Range Rover in 1987 and many people are still confused as to what Land Rover actually is, they think of the brand as Range Rover. The Defender (or more accurately the Series Land Rovers) form an important part of the heritage presentation given to US customers but if the current car was offered here sales would be miniscule because in reality it is not a product the US consumer would want. There are a few people restoring extremely tiny quantities of old cars, bringing them up to more modern specs and selling them for ludicrous sums purely because they are an oddity. IMHO.

A more rugged, more utilitarian but modern, relevant and cool vehicle, which is what new Defender will be, will sell well here but it will need to be very different from the old model. Which it will be I'm sure.

[DonkeyApple]

mph1977 said:

DonkeyApple said:

I suspect we risk falling into a UK centric perspective.

In the New Economies where money is rife and class is in limited supply you will find that many buyers of JLR products are appalled at the idea of a peasant wagon.

however in Europe and the US the link with the series - Defender is a significant part of the brand

to address another poster - the defender is not sold in the US becasue the US light truck rules don;t accomodate it and becvasue it's NIH there's no easements - if jeep were stuck

if the Defender was compliant there would be significant sales in the US - part od the reason early defender values are so buoyant is the fact that sufficient aged vehciles can be imported to the US and rebuilt to left hand drive v8 petrols

DonkeyApple said:

That's why you don't see Lamborghini or Porsche showing off old tractors to Chinese pig farmers who have just become billionaires and are desperate to bury all traces of their peasant past as rapidly and deeply as possible. You very obviously can't do that if you are seen driving around in a farmers' car. They types of people buying JLR products at present are absolutely terrified at the concept of being seen anywhere near a peasant wagon. It'll be generations before any class of social comfort exists in those ranks.

however neither Lambo or Porsche are attempting to sell the best 4*4*byfar - which the Full Fat range rover has traded on sincxe the early days of the classic - on the basis that the FFRR is the right vehicle for the farmyard, the hunt / shoot / the opera ( whether gylndebourne or Town) or drawing up outside head office / expensive hotels

the Defender also has the impact of being the peasant wagon Brenda *actually* drives whether at sandringham or balmoral- ditto with Phil the greek and his Disco in windsor great park

DonkeyApple said:

You'd need to do what Merc did to the G Wagon to get sales.

the be honest the Gay-wagen is like LR still building the Classic just because

DonkeyApple said:

The commercial market really is dead. JLR sell a few thousand Defenders a year and most of those are bought as trinkets for having fun with.

other than those year sold into the utilities and ES market becasue there is nothing comparable except perhaps the Toyota Series 70 / troop carrier

the current Iveco daily and MB sprinter 4*4 offerings are better than previous attempts at a 4*4 light van but when push comes to shove the utilities and the emergency services have 2 go-to chassis for real off road work and that depends on the MAM required <3.5 tonne it's the defender 110, >3.5t the 130 and over 7.5 tonnes Unimog ...


JLR has just loaded up with debt to finance it's first mass volume product since it's failed X Type venture. Everything is focussed on the baby Jag because if that fails to take serious market share then they have a very big problem.

DonkeyApple said:

JLR are currently a low volume, high margin business. The Defender doesn't fit as it has no real margin at all. Only if the baby Jag concept works will they have become a high volume, low margin manufacturer and then they could contemplate taking on the debt to then take on the Japanese utility market. But it is important to ask why would a firm who specialises so brilliantly in selling up market products to the wealthy suddenly be able to sell down market products to the poor? How will they get a third world, goat farmer into their Mayfair showroom and why would they want to? Vending a poverty product will require a new selling network.

All the defenders ever built will still be tooling around for all to see for the next 20 years so still promoting JLR. Not adding any new ones from the factory doesn't really matter. And they can still put them in shop windows. The car won't stop existing.

I simply cannot see any commercial benefit to JLR unless they glitz it up to be a high margin luxury product.

the commercial benefit is the fact that it exists rather than being killed off leaving capability gaps

the Defender is far more than the 2 lengths and 5 body styles you can buy at retail

DonkeyApple said:

What I have a feeling will happen is that they will license the car and lease or sell the tooling to a business that is structured in such a way that building a few thousand Defenders a year is hugely profitable. A firm much smaller than JLR for who the Defender is a cracking business. A firm that could retain the overseas sales and utilise SVA, if possible, to keep trinket sales in the UK.

your so called 'trinket' sales are in fact a nice to have addon beyond the core purpose of the Defender Range

DonkeyApple said:

My personal gamble is that JLR will not directly replace the Defender for some time. You only have to look at their capacity allocations to see there is no room. In terms of opportunity cost the defender is a massive loss maker. If it does ever come back it will have to be as the G Wagon has, a very expensive toy.

In terms of brand damage the absence of the Defender will do the company huge damage - defenders have beaten 'not invented here' to gain US military and various European government/ ES sales. comparisions with Jeep are irrelevant as Jeep has not significantly operated in government sales and utlities for many years - unlike LR and Toyota

Sorry, but pull the build numbers and sales figs on Defenders. Why use x factory capacity for y profit when you can use x to produce 10y profit?

Go and ask about JLR in the US and EU. It won't be the Defender anyone mentions. The US is 100% irrelevant as they've never been sold there. Landies were locked out a long time ago and have long since gone from the memories of debt financed car buyers.

Military? Gone. Very long gone. Hundreds of young men slaughtered in their utterly useless product saw to that. The Defender will never again feature in the British military other than the use of the existing ones as domestic transport until they can no longer be refurbed efficiently.

And JLR is in absolutely no position to try and compete against a Japanese producer of low end commercial vehicles. Nothing at all can be made to add up in that argument. The Defender is a nostalgia purchase. It is bought commercially to market a patriotic brand image as much as anything.

It is the Range Rover that today defines JLRs global 4x4 image and the Range Rover brand has never needed anything from the Land Tover or Defender brands to justify its 4x4 credentials. Especially as the original Tangie was the better off roader.

I won't miss the Defender for two reasons. One, I will still see as many around as I do today for the rest of my life. They are not going anywhere and in fact I suspect more will find their way back into out roads. And secondly, I think they will still be made post the JLR shut down.

I think the Defender is going to be around for much longer yet.

[mph1977]

DonkeyApple said:

Sorry, but pull the build numbers and sales figs on Defenders. Why use x factory capacity for y profit when you can use x to produce 10y profit?

Tata unlike ford and BMW appear to understand what it is about the Defender that makes it unique - the retail offering is not the reason the Defender exists LRSV is why the Defender still exists

DonkeyApple said:

Go and ask about JLR in the US and EU. It won't be the Defender anyone mentions. The US is 100% irrelevant as they've never been sold there.

you are technically correct there , the Defender branded versions of the actual Land rover haven;t been sold there but series, 90 and 110 have been sold in the US , and it;s been doesn;t quite fir into convenient US vehicle classifications that made it effectively impossible to continue selling them , much as US full size pick-ups don't easily fit into the European weight classes

there is a small but not insignificant market in getting rebuilt as new but qualifying on the basis of chassis number vehicles in the US and canada

as for Europe - then why has LR sold defenders into governmental contracts in the EU and continues to sell to NGOs and international organisations for use outside the EU /N America ?
<snip>

DonkeyApple said:

Military? Gone. Very long gone. Hundreds of young men slaughtered in their utterly useless product saw to that.

and the MOD decision to use the 'Snatch' vehicles which were a vehicle designed for temperate climates Public order MACP in far warmer places with a greater IED threat is exactly what fault of Land Rover Limited ?

DonkeyApple said:

The Defender will never again feature in the British military other than the use of the existing ones as domestic transport until they can no longer be refurbed efficiently.

what has to be remembered is that the original purchases of the coil sprung landies by the MoD were in the mid 1980s when we were still equipping for a Cold war scenario - these had meant a relative glut of under used and still in basically good condition vehicles through the various draw downs .

add in the reluctance of BMW and Ford to offer a suitable engine after the dropping of the 300TDi in the European market it's unsuprising that refurbishment was an appealing option even before Brown 'abolished boom and bust'

LR based WMIKs remain in operational use alongside the Supacat based WMIKs

DonkeyApple said:

And JLR is in absolutely no position to try and compete against a Japanese producer of low end commercial vehicles. Nothing at all can be made to add up in that argument. The Defender is a nostalgia purchase. It is bought commercially to market a patriotic brand image as much as anything.

as you appear to have no concept of the use of the defender by the military, utilities and emergency services and beleive that the defender exists dor the limited retail offering , you also appear to have a substantial set of misunderstandings and blind spots on other realities of the market and market sector . this is the kind of thinking that has seen BMW become a producer of arsperational mass market rep mobiles.

[shirt]

mph1977 said:

unrepentant said:

skyrover said:

Defender production will continue abroad it seems where EU legislation does not apply

To sell where?

perhaps

Middle East, Africa, Turkey - using the all ready existant Otosan line in Turkey

South Asia by shipping Uk plant to India

the patrol/landcruiser is dominant in all those markets. cheaper, better equipped and much more reliable than the defender. very rare to see one in africa these days.

the only hope i see for it continuing production is if it is produced/marketed at a vastly reduced price than present.