Replacement for Defender - any information yet?
Discussion
shirt said:
the patrol/landcruiser is dominant in all those markets. cheaper, better equipped and much more reliable than the defender. very rare to see one in africa these days.
the only hope i see for it continuing production is if it is produced/marketed at a vastly reduced price than present.
Where you continue to produce a vehicle even in one 'developed world' location pricing will reflect the labour costs in that high location, i'm not sure what the relative salary / cost of living is between Turkey and India but i suspect that in both cases it;s notably lower than the costs in the UK. this isalso reflects the situation where there arespecific developing world or continued production of the last generation(s) of vehicvles i nthe developing markets - sometimesi n parallel with the latest model ...the only hope i see for it continuing production is if it is produced/marketed at a vastly reduced price than present.
This also takes the view that the Defender as a new puchase is all about the the retail market for pickup / hardtop / dual cab / SW i.e. what one poster dismissed as 'trinkets' rather than the Military / government / NGO /Utilities + infrastructure/ Emergency Services market and the increasing involvement of LRSV and third party suppliers / convertors with the vehicles sold into those markets
DonkeyApple said:
Military? Gone. Very long gone. Hundreds of young men slaughtered in their utterly useless product saw to that. The Defender will never again feature in the British military other than the use of the existing ones as domestic transport until they can no longer be refurbed efficiently.
I think that's a little unfair. The Snatch variant was only ever intended to fend off nail bombs and small calibre rounds in places like Belfast.Its poor performance against half a dozen 105mm artillery shells buried in desert roads and RPGs fired at close range is hardly a reason to condemn it as useless. The vehicle is brilliant, the decision to use it in the manner it was is the utterly useless bit.
mph1977 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Sorry, but pull the build numbers and sales figs on Defenders. Why use x factory capacity for y profit when you can use x to produce 10y profit?
Tata unlike ford and BMW appear to understand what it is about the Defender that makes it unique - the retail offering is not the reason the Defender exists LRSV is why the Defender still exists DonkeyApple said:
Go and ask about JLR in the US and EU. It won't be the Defender anyone mentions. The US is 100% irrelevant as they've never been sold there.
you are technically correct there , the Defender branded versions of the actual Land rover haven;t been sold there but series, 90 and 110 have been sold in the US , and it;s been doesn;t quite fir into convenient US vehicle classifications that made it effectively impossible to continue selling them , much as US full size pick-ups don't easily fit into the European weight classes there is a small but not insignificant market in getting rebuilt as new but qualifying on the basis of chassis number vehicles in the US and canada
as for Europe - then why has LR sold defenders into governmental contracts in the EU and continues to sell to NGOs and international organisations for use outside the EU /N America ?
<snip>
DonkeyApple said:
Military? Gone. Very long gone. Hundreds of young men slaughtered in their utterly useless product saw to that.
and the MOD decision to use the 'Snatch' vehicles which were a vehicle designed for temperate climates Public order MACP in far warmer places with a greater IED threat is exactly what fault of Land Rover Limited ? DonkeyApple said:
The Defender will never again feature in the British military other than the use of the existing ones as domestic transport until they can no longer be refurbed efficiently.
what has to be remembered is that the original purchases of the coil sprung landies by the MoD were in the mid 1980s when we were still equipping for a Cold war scenario - these had meant a relative glut of under used and still in basically good condition vehicles through the various draw downs .add in the reluctance of BMW and Ford to offer a suitable engine after the dropping of the 300TDi in the European market it's unsuprising that refurbishment was an appealing option even before Brown 'abolished boom and bust'
LR based WMIKs remain in operational use alongside the Supacat based WMIKs
DonkeyApple said:
And JLR is in absolutely no position to try and compete against a Japanese producer of low end commercial vehicles. Nothing at all can be made to add up in that argument. The Defender is a nostalgia purchase. It is bought commercially to market a patriotic brand image as much as anything.
as you appear to have no concept of the use of the defender by the military, utilities and emergency services and beleive that the defender exists dor the limited retail offering , you also appear to have a substantial set of misunderstandings and blind spots on other realities of the market and market sector . this is the kind of thinking that has seen BMW become a producer of arsperational mass market rep mobiles.Emergency services and utilities do not use these vehicles either. Sales to these entities have slumped and the Defender hardly makes up a fee basis points of global sales to these markets.
I think you need to look at the real numbers and stop dreaming. The numbers are the facts and the facts are what makes a profit or a loss. The Defender when built by JLR is a loss making product because of the profit potential surrendered by using the capacity to build a Defender over something like an Evoque.
And you also don't seem to comprehend that even after JLR stop making Defenders they will all still exist and all still be out there promoting JLR. Ergo, no need to keep on making them from a marketing perspective.
The Defender is an iconic car and a phenominal one but a basic understanding of accounting and revenues shows very clearly why JLR will stop making them. We can only hope that a smaller firm for whom the margins are good will take over.
Crossflow Kid said:
DonkeyApple said:
Military? Gone. Very long gone. Hundreds of young men slaughtered in their utterly useless product saw to that. The Defender will never again feature in the British military other than the use of the existing ones as domestic transport until they can no longer be refurbed efficiently.
I think that's a little unfair. The Snatch variant was only ever intended to fend off nail bombs and small calibre rounds in places like Belfast.Its poor performance against half a dozen 105mm artillery shells buried in desert roads and RPGs fired at close range is hardly a reason to condemn it as useless. The vehicle is brilliant, the decision to use it in the manner it was is the utterly useless bit.
The majority of Defender sales now are either private purchases or made by marketing depts.
DonkeyApple said:
Never said it was the fault of JLR. Just that the military are an irrelevant customer as the stigma create has resulted in the vehicle being off the list. And all existing vehicles are refurbed/rebuilt outside of the JLR model.
Emergency services and utilities do not use these vehicles either. Sales to these entities have slumped and the Defender hardly makes up a fee basis points of global sales to these markets.
You are quite obviously talking utter bEmergency services and utilities do not use these vehicles either. Sales to these entities have slumped and the Defender hardly makes up a fee basis points of global sales to these markets.
ks here as the Emergency services and Utilities are still buying defenders for roles where they are needed - the fact the utily companies are buying rangers or 4*4 sprinters for some tasks doesn;t change the fact that they are still buying defenders for certain tasks There is only one alternative to the Defender in a number of applications and toyota seem to extremely reluctant to sell the Lancrusier troop carrier in the EU market. substitutions can be made but they are a substitution not a replacement - the RAF and FAA substituted Pinzgauer s i nthe airfield crash rescuse ambulance role at major installations but there was also a requirement for greater interior volume than that offered by the 130 based predecessors - which Pinz could meet with an off the shelf 6*6 version, the second line ACR 4*4 sprinter is a substition as it does not have the off road capacity of the 130 , but for most airfield uses that is less important especially if it's a secondary vehicle to a pinz and spends most of it;s time in anger acting as a Domestic site ambulance / first responder ...
your assertions over the military use are b grossly ignorant of the factors i have previously explained , there are hundreds if not thousands of 'excess' chassis, bodies and other major components from earlier purchases - many of which are only in need fo work due to the fact they were purchased 25 + years ago while the cold war still rumbled on
add in the rubbish that is being talked about the MoD's decision to use the Snatch vehicles in an unsuitable theatre some how being a fault of the Land rover company ...
Land rovers are and remain the light utility vehicle of choice for HMF and the armed forces of other nations, the way in which we now fight wars means roles that historically were undertaken by soft skin vehicles aren;t but it doesn;t mean that Ford, GMC , Toyota or VW will suddenly be selling their picksup and SUVs into the roles
mph1977 said:
shirt said:
the patrol/landcruiser is dominant in all those markets. cheaper, better equipped and much more reliable than the defender. very rare to see one in africa these days.
the only hope i see for it continuing production is if it is produced/marketed at a vastly reduced price than present.
Where you continue to produce a vehicle even in one 'developed world' location pricing will reflect the labour costs in that high location, i'm not sure what the relative salary / cost of living is between Turkey and India but i suspect that in both cases it;s notably lower than the costs in the UK. this isalso reflects the situation where there arespecific developing world or continued production of the last generation(s) of vehicvles i nthe developing markets - sometimesi n parallel with the latest model ...the only hope i see for it continuing production is if it is produced/marketed at a vastly reduced price than present.
This also takes the view that the Defender as a new puchase is all about the the retail market for pickup / hardtop / dual cab / SW i.e. what one poster dismissed as 'trinkets' rather than the Military / government / NGO /Utilities + infrastructure/ Emergency Services market and the increasing involvement of LRSV and third party suppliers / convertors with the vehicles sold into those markets
mph1977 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Never said it was the fault of JLR. Just that the military are an irrelevant customer as the stigma create has resulted in the vehicle being off the list. And all existing vehicles are refurbed/rebuilt outside of the JLR model.
Emergency services and utilities do not use these vehicles either. Sales to these entities have slumped and the Defender hardly makes up a fee basis points of global sales to these markets.
You are quite obviously talking utter bEmergency services and utilities do not use these vehicles either. Sales to these entities have slumped and the Defender hardly makes up a fee basis points of global sales to these markets.
ks here as the Emergency services and Utilities are still buying defenders for roles where they are needed - the fact the utily companies are buying rangers or 4*4 sprinters for some tasks doesn;t change the fact that they are still buying defenders for certain tasks There is only one alternative to the Defender in a number of applications and toyota seem to extremely reluctant to sell the Lancrusier troop carrier in the EU market. substitutions can be made but they are a substitution not a replacement - the RAF and FAA substituted Pinzgauer s i nthe airfield crash rescuse ambulance role at major installations but there was also a requirement for greater interior volume than that offered by the 130 based predecessors - which Pinz could meet with an off the shelf 6*6 version, the second line ACR 4*4 sprinter is a substition as it does not have the off road capacity of the 130 , but for most airfield uses that is less important especially if it's a secondary vehicle to a pinz and spends most of it;s time in anger acting as a Domestic site ambulance / first responder ...
your assertions over the military use are b grossly ignorant of the factors i have previously explained , there are hundreds if not thousands of 'excess' chassis, bodies and other major components from earlier purchases - many of which are only in need fo work due to the fact they were purchased 25 + years ago while the cold war still rumbled on
add in the rubbish that is being talked about the MoD's decision to use the Snatch vehicles in an unsuitable theatre some how being a fault of the Land rover company ...
Land rovers are and remain the light utility vehicle of choice for HMF and the armed forces of other nations, the way in which we now fight wars means roles that historically were undertaken by soft skin vehicles aren;t but it doesn;t mean that Ford, GMC , Toyota or VW will suddenly be selling their picksup and SUVs into the roles
Until you open your mind and look at the simple numbers you won't be able to understand and keep jibbering on.
The Defender takes up production capacity and delivers almost no margin. In contrast to other JLR products which deliver huge margin.
The business is of value but not to JLR. It is in fact losing them profit.
I'm afraid you are dwelling in cloud cuckoo land.
Besides which, if the product is so essential to small, niche buyers then just what is wrong with another company with different economics building them?
And ease don't get so over emotional. It doesn't help.
DonkeyApple said:
<snip>
The Defender takes up production capacity and delivers almost no margin. In contrast to other JLR products which deliver huge margin.
The business is of value but not to JLR. It is in fact losing them profit.
I'm afraid you are dwelling in cloud cuckoo land.
Besides which, if the product is so essential to small, niche buyers then just what is wrong with another company with different economics building them?
as i said in an early reply to this JLR / Tata arenlt Ford or BMW , they understand that Land rover Ltd without the actual Land Rover has sold out - the reductionist bean counter approach says get rid or selll the design on , the unquantifable is the Damage this will do to the brand ... The Defender takes up production capacity and delivers almost no margin. In contrast to other JLR products which deliver huge margin.
The business is of value but not to JLR. It is in fact losing them profit.
I'm afraid you are dwelling in cloud cuckoo land.
Besides which, if the product is so essential to small, niche buyers then just what is wrong with another company with different economics building them?
BMW and Audi have damaged their brands with their chasing of the aresperational company car market , M-B just managed to do it with cheap steel and not making sure the indians and saffas put them toghether as well as the germans ...
porsche is oneof the few premium / smaller volume producers who have not chased things to the degree they could - while they aim regardless of the breadth of the range to build one less vehicle than they can sell ...
mph1977 said:
DonkeyApple said:
<snip>
The Defender takes up production capacity and delivers almost no margin. In contrast to other JLR products which deliver huge margin.
The business is of value but not to JLR. It is in fact losing them profit.
I'm afraid you are dwelling in cloud cuckoo land.
Besides which, if the product is so essential to small, niche buyers then just what is wrong with another company with different economics building them?
as i said in an early reply to this JLR / Tata arenlt Ford or BMW , they understand that Land rover Ltd without the actual Land Rover has sold out - the reductionist bean counter approach says get rid or selll the design on , the unquantifable is the Damage this will do to the brand ... The Defender takes up production capacity and delivers almost no margin. In contrast to other JLR products which deliver huge margin.
The business is of value but not to JLR. It is in fact losing them profit.
I'm afraid you are dwelling in cloud cuckoo land.
Besides which, if the product is so essential to small, niche buyers then just what is wrong with another company with different economics building them?
BMW and Audi have damaged their brands with their chasing of the aresperational company car market , M-B just managed to do it with cheap steel and not making sure the indians and saffas put them toghether as well as the germans ...
porsche is oneof the few premium / smaller volume producers who have not chased things to the degree they could - while they aim regardless of the breadth of the range to build one less vehicle than they can sell ...
skyrover said:
A simple statement in my mind really...
Is the Defender the "Ultimate off-roader"?
if so... Does Land Rover plan a similar replacement?
If not... can Land Rover really call itself the "Ultimate Off-Road Brand"?
Off the shelf I guess it isn't as most extremely serious expeditionists chose other products. Is the Defender the "Ultimate off-roader"?
if so... Does Land Rover plan a similar replacement?
If not... can Land Rover really call itself the "Ultimate Off-Road Brand"?
Long arguments to be had as to whether it's global reach was because of Empire rather than ability over others. And the same arguement over whether it's monthly sales average of 3,000 only existed because of State procurement. Something supported by today's vols being around 1,000/month since the State stopped being the core customer in the last decade.
Personally, I think it is one of the best. I believe that until 1971 it was the best off-roader you could buy and for a long time after it had few peers. Even today where I think it scores is that it can do more things at a higher level than the competition.
As for the brand, well, LR only make off roaders and the most premium and competent group of off-roaders available, as a group. So yes I think they can claim it. Individual products may better their individual products but taken as a whole I think they are clearly this planets leaders.
skyrover said:
A simple statement in my mind really...
Is the Defender the "Ultimate off-roader"?
if so... Does Land Rover plan a similar replacement?
If not... can Land Rover really call itself the "Ultimate Off-Road Brand"?
In Utah when the new Range Rover was being launched one was seen rescuing a Defender..........Is the Defender the "Ultimate off-roader"?
if so... Does Land Rover plan a similar replacement?
If not... can Land Rover really call itself the "Ultimate Off-Road Brand"?
Land Rover makes the best 4x4's in the world and will continue to do so long after Defender production finishes.
unrepentant said:
In Utah when the new Range Rover was being launched one was seen rescuing a Defender..........
Yes it's a load of bks.A defender can be modified in any way shape or form that you need for the task at hand.
A range rover is a one trick pony. No modern range rover is going to see serious work as it's simply not built for the job.
DonkeyApple said:
Off the shelf I guess it isn't as most extremely serious expeditionists chose other products.
Long arguments to be had as to whether it's global reach was because of Empire rather than ability over others. And the same arguement over whether it's monthly sales average of 3,000 only existed because of State procurement. Something supported by today's vols being around 1,000/month since the State stopped being the core customer in the last decade.
Personally, I think it is one of the best. I believe that until 1971 it was the best off-roader you could buy and for a long time after it had few peers. Even today where I think it scores is that it can do more things at a higher level than the competition.
As for the brand, well, LR only make off roaders and the most premium and competent group of off-roaders available, as a group. So yes I think they can claim it. Individual products may better their individual products but taken as a whole I think they are clearly this planets leaders.
What makes a good off roader? Simplicity? Ruggedness? Capability? Mod-ability? Aftermarket support? Cost? Drivetrain?Long arguments to be had as to whether it's global reach was because of Empire rather than ability over others. And the same arguement over whether it's monthly sales average of 3,000 only existed because of State procurement. Something supported by today's vols being around 1,000/month since the State stopped being the core customer in the last decade.
Personally, I think it is one of the best. I believe that until 1971 it was the best off-roader you could buy and for a long time after it had few peers. Even today where I think it scores is that it can do more things at a higher level than the competition.
As for the brand, well, LR only make off roaders and the most premium and competent group of off-roaders available, as a group. So yes I think they can claim it. Individual products may better their individual products but taken as a whole I think they are clearly this planets leaders.
What model In Land Rover's repository meets most of these requirements?
Land Rover has a good opportunity to modernize the current Defender, without betraying it's purpose. To be the ultimate off-road machine and not some fashion trinket that will be forgotten and in the scrap yard 20 years from now.
skyrover said:
What makes a good off roader? Simplicity? Ruggedness? Capability? Mod-ability? Aftermarket support? Cost? Drivetrain?
What model In Land Rover's repository meets most of these requirements?
I propose we rename the company "Mall Rover"
How many serious, extreme off-roaders exist on this planet and how many of those do so with an off the shelf product?What model In Land Rover's repository meets most of these requirements?
I propose we rename the company "Mall Rover"
Bugger all is the answer.
You need to wake up a bit and apply some simple economics and ditch some of the prejudice.
DonkeyApple said:
How many serious, extreme off-roaders exist on this planet and how many of those do so with an off the shelf product?
Bugger all is the answer.
You need to wake up a bit and apply some simple economics and ditch some of the prejudice.
Google "Toyota 70 series" Bugger all is the answer.
You need to wake up a bit and apply some simple economics and ditch some of the prejudice.
Toyota got it right... rock solid drive train, live axles (optional independent front), basic no frills interior, minimal electrics, affordable cost, body on frame construction, Different body styles available.
The Defender should be Land Rover's "70 series"... It's worked for Toyota.
NomduJour said:
70 Series is an outmoded antique and will be put put of its misery soon, just like the Defender.
The 70 series is one of Toyota's best sellers... it's not going anywhere.Toyota is working on a replacement with improved crash worthiness... but will remain faithful to the workhorse concept.
Edited by skyrover on Sunday 24th August 17:58
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