Replacement for Defender - any information yet?
Discussion
NomduJour said:
All been debated to death on here before. Zero chance of LR chasing Toyota-style volume and zero chance of them building a true Defender replacement. Potentially damaging to reputation, but luck-shore-ee is where the easy short-term money is.
So we have to accept that they are no longer the "ultimate off-roader"I suppose the next best thing is the jeep wrangler... shame as it's not as good a work-horse and needs a bit of money spent to keep up with the defender off-road
skyrover said:
Not too much of a stretch to take the Hilux chassis and strip it down 
Let's hope they make it a bit stronger 
NomduJour said:
All been debated to death on here before. Zero chance of LR chasing Toyota-style volume and zero chance of them building a true Defender replacement. Potentially damaging to reputation, but luck-shore-ee is where the easy short-term money is.
It would be rather nice if:A firm like Bowler took over the tooling.
JLR build a replacement along the lines of their recent concepts.
JLR had such success with the baby Jag that they felt they could take on the Japanese at the bottom of the market.
It's a crying shame to see the end of the JLR Defender but it's all too obvious.
skyrover said:
unrepentant said:
In Utah when the new Range Rover was being launched one was seen rescuing a Defender..........
Yes it's a load of b
ks.A defender can be modified in any way shape or form that you need for the task at hand.
A range rover is a one trick pony. No modern range rover is going to see serious work as it's simply not built for the job.
You really think Land Rover should build cars for people who want to mod them for extreme off road use? Those people never buy new cars and they represent a tiny fraction of people who even buy old ones. There's simply no market and that's underlined by the fact that even those who wail and bleat about this like you haven't bought a new one for 30 years (if ever).
We take 20/30 Land Rovers to an off road park a couple of times a year, mostly Range Rovers, LR2's (Freelanders), LR4's (Disco 4's) and the odd old Disco and P38. All customer cars, unmodified and they do stuff that is way more extreme than they will ever do otherwise and nobody ever has issues.
The extreme recreational off roaders over here generally use purpose built ATV's with the occasional heavily modded OLD Jeep thrown in.
Land Rover need to build cars that people want to buy new and they are doing a great job with that and new Defender will be capable and sell by the bucket load and bring even more jobs and export dollars to the UK. And as DA said, there's plenty of old Defenders around for the few that want to mod them, and they're not customers for new cars anyway.
unrepentant said:
Saw it with my own eyes so you can go take a jump mate. Modified? An unmodified Range Rover or Discovery or Freelander or Evoque for that matter can go anywhere it needs to go straight out of the box thanks.
I'm not doubting it recovered the defender... but it's a one off, you wouldn't use one for recovery on a regular basis.unrepentant said:
You really think Land Rover should build cars for people who want to mod them for extreme off road use? Those people never buy new cars and they represent a tiny fraction of people who even buy old ones. There's simply no market and that's underlined by the fact that even those who wail and bleat about this like you haven't bought a new one for 30 years (if ever).
Yes there is... as defined by the fact Defender sales are remarkably consistent, every year.unrepentant said:
We take 20/30 Land Rovers to an off road park a couple of times a year, mostly Range Rovers, LR2's (Freelanders), LR4's (Disco 4's) and the odd old Disco and P38. All customer cars, unmodified and they do stuff that is way more extreme than they will ever do otherwise and nobody ever has issues.
Fine.. but they are not the defender's target market.unrepentant said:
The extreme recreational off roaders over here generally use purpose built ATV's with the occasional heavily modded OLD Jeep thrown in.
What about those who need a solid workhorse with excellent off-road ability thrown in?unrepentant said:
Land Rover need to build cars that people want to buy new and they are doing a great job with that and new Defender will be capable and sell by the bucket load and bring even more jobs and export dollars to the UK.
Yes, but don't throw away everything that makes it a Defender.DonkeyApple said:
JLR had such success with the baby Jag that they felt they could take on the Japanese at the bottom of the market.
skyrover said:
unrepentant said:
You really think Land Rover should build cars for people who want to mod them for extreme off road use? Those people never buy new cars and they represent a tiny fraction of people who even buy old ones. There's simply no market and that's underlined by the fact that even those who wail and bleat about this like you haven't bought a new one for 30 years (if ever).
Yes there is... as defined by the fact Defender sales are remarkably consistent, every year.The Defender has been a great car. So was the E-Type. I had two and loved them. But things move on and my F-Type is a million miles better. It's called progress.
skyrover said:
It makes a profit and gives the brand credibility?
The only reason Land Rover is getting shot is due to EU regs... otherwise it would soldier on.
The corner of the market it sits in is relatively small... but it's not getting any smaller.
It doesn't though. To make one Defender with a few K profit you are surrendering the ability to make an Evoque, Disco, Sport or Rangie that makes tens of K profit. The only reason Land Rover is getting shot is due to EU regs... otherwise it would soldier on.
The corner of the market it sits in is relatively small... but it's not getting any smaller.
A smaller firm could book it as a profit, as could a firm which builds high volume, low margin products. But JLR builds high margin, premium products and each Defender represents a loss of potential income in the tend of thousands. It really is very simple business accounting.
Add to that that volumes have dropped to a third of their historic average, as their largest long term customer, the British State stopped buying, while at the same time all other products grew and the company hit production limits the issue became even more strongly exacerbated.
unrepentant said:
skyrover said:
unrepentant said:
You really think Land Rover should build cars for people who want to mod them for extreme off road use? Those people never buy new cars and they represent a tiny fraction of people who even buy old ones. There's simply no market and that's underlined by the fact that even those who wail and bleat about this like you haven't bought a new one for 30 years (if ever).
Yes there is... as defined by the fact Defender sales are remarkably consistent, every year.The Defender has been a great car. So was the E-Type. I had two and loved them. But things move on and my F-Type is a million miles better. It's called progress.
I want to take my Defender with me to the states... US import laws state that I can't bring in anything newer than 25 years old... It's worth nearly as much as your Range Rover once I bring it to the states.
unrepentant said:
DonkeyApple said:
JLR had such success with the baby Jag that they felt they could take on the Japanese at the bottom of the market.
I want to see this car ripping leasers out of Mercs and BMWs and for JLR to find a new confidence in the volume sector of the market as it is a different game to what they have traditionally excelled at and the Ford financed venture before was technically a big failure.
In reality I can't see them ever doing commercial utility vehicles in size, ever. And if there is a Defender replacement in pretty sure it will be aimed at the wealthy end of the spectrum with money to burn and a desire for a sporty, simple, rugged 'lifestyle' product. I'm pretty sure that slapping that concept car around Santa Monica Pier gave a clear idea as to where the biggest profits are to be seen if they do offer a replacement down the line?
DonkeyApple said:
It doesn't though. To make one Defender with a few K profit you are surrendering the ability to make an Evoque, Disco, Sport or Rangie that makes tens of K profit.
Can you put a price on brand credibility? Around the world people identify with the Defender which has much in common with the original land rover the company was founded upon. People are not stupid... people recognize that.The Defender is worth more to the brand than a few extra Evoque's etc, which will be confined to the dustbin of history in time.
DonkeyApple said:
A smaller firm could book it as a profit, as could a firm which builds high volume, low margin products. But JLR builds high margin, premium products and each Defender represents a loss of potential income in the tend of thousands. It really is very simple business accounting.
Land Rover loses nothing by keeping the Defender in production. A bad business operates at a loss, the Defender does not. If Land Rover wants to sell more car's than they can add another production line... which is what they have done.DonkeyApple said:
Add to that that volumes have dropped to a third of their historic average, as their largest long term customer, the British State stopped buying, while at the same time all other products grew and the company hit production limits the issue became even more strongly exacerbated.
They are currently offering the Defender with a terrible drivetrain and have never fixed the issue of chocolate axles or factory fitted difflocks.They could have taken a leaf from Jeep's book, modernize the Defender and improved it as an actual product.
Look at how wrangler sales have taken off while still remaining faithful to it's core market.
skyrover said:
DonkeyApple said:
It doesn't though. To make one Defender with a few K profit you are surrendering the ability to make an Evoque, Disco, Sport or Rangie that makes tens of K profit.
Can you put a price on brand credibility? Around the world people identify with the Defender which has much in common with the original land rover the company was founded upon. People are not stupid... people recognize that.The Defender is worth more to the brand than a few extra Evoque's etc, which will be confined to the dustbin of history in time.
DonkeyApple said:
A smaller firm could book it as a profit, as could a firm which builds high volume, low margin products. But JLR builds high margin, premium products and each Defender represents a loss of potential income in the tend of thousands. It really is very simple business accounting.
Land Rover loses nothing by keeping the Defender in production. A bad business operates at a loss, the Defender does not. If Land Rover want sto sell more car's than they can add another production line... which is what they have done.DonkeyApple said:
Add to that that volumes have dropped to a third of their historic average, as their largest long term customer, the British State stopped buying, while at the same time all other products grew and the company hit production limits the issue became even more strongly exacerbated.
They are currently offering the Defender with a terrible drivetrain and have never fixed the issue of chocolate axles or factory fitted difflocks.They could have taken a leaf from Jeep's book, modernize the Defender and improved it as an actual product.
Look at how wrangler sales have taken off while still remaining faithful to it's core market.
Around the world no one gives a flying dog do about the weird and anachronistic Defender outside of specialist offroad groups who mostly shun it and buy Jap or US lot to fettle about with.
And of they had copied Chysler, just who exactly would they be selling to?
Step outside of the UK and no one gives two hoots about our beloved Defender.
And just what is this offroad credibility anyway seeing as in 1970 it was surpassed by the Range Rover. A car which not only was better offroad but drove on road like a car and was more comfortable and safer.
It's the Rangie that has defined the company from the first day it hit the shops.
DonkeyApple said:
Around the world the product synonymous with JLR is the Range Rover. That is the product that sells all their cheaper SUVs.
No it's not... the reason given for the dropping of the DC100 as the defender replacement was the poor reception it received in the USA, despite the Defender only being sold there a short while, it still has a strong impact on US consumers who are very familiar with it.DonkeyApple said:
Around the world no one gives a flying dog do about the weird and anachronistic Defender outside of specialist offroad groups who mostly shun it and buy Jap or US lot to fettle about with.
Most Defender's built are still running and they have a vast following globally. They are regaining popularity in the African continent due to most modern vehicles becoming to expensive and difficult to maintain in the harsh environment.DonkeyApple said:
And of they had copied Chysler, just who exactly would they be selling to?
Well they could try and reclaim some of that market they handed to Toyota DonkeyApple said:
Step outside of the UK and no one gives two hoots about our beloved Defender.
Well it was the American's who got the DC100 cancelled... so I would disagreeDonkeyApple said:
And just what is this offroad credibility anyway seeing as in 1970 it was surpassed by the Range Rover. A car which not only was better offroad but drove on road like a car and was more comfortable and safer.
It's the Rangie that has defined the company from the first day it hit the shops.
The original range rover IS basically a defender underneath... and yes it is an excellent vehicle. And no it's not better than a defender offroad due to it's overhangs It's the Rangie that has defined the company from the first day it hit the shops.
The Range Rover since becoming it's own brand has Defined that brand. The Defender defines Land Rover as a whole.
skyrover said:
Sometimes less is more....
I want to take my Defender with me to the states... US import laws state that I can't bring in anything newer than 25 years old... It's worth nearly as much as your Range Rover once I bring it to the states.
You are kind of making my point for me. You, one of the most outspoken advocates of LR continuing to produce the Defender have never spent more than 700 quid in buying one! Unfortunately the company needs people to buy NEW cars to survive.I want to take my Defender with me to the states... US import laws state that I can't bring in anything newer than 25 years old... It's worth nearly as much as your Range Rover once I bring it to the states.
The Defenders that bring the decent money here are generally the original US ones that are all individually numbered and obviously LHD. The high dollar cars are also the very clean restored cars. We have a customer who spent over 60k just on restoring his old 90. Old junkers don't make much and the market is small even for the nice cars. I'd research it pretty carefully before you go to the expense of importing your 500 quid beater here in the hopes of making a quick buck. I'm not sure that your other oil burning beater can be imported, even though it is over 25 years old.
skyrover said:
DonkeyApple said:
Around the world the product synonymous with JLR is the Range Rover. That is the product that sells all their cheaper SUVs.
No it's not... the reason given for the dropping of the DC100 as the defender replacement was the poor reception it received in the USA, despite the Defender only being sold there a short while, it still has a strong impact on US consumers who are very familiar with it.The Defender is part of the heritage of the brand just like the E-Type is part of the heritage of Jaguar and the 250 GTO is part of the heritage of Ferrari. Heritage, history, the past. Wilks brothers, Spen King, Series 1, Road Rover, Classic Range Rover, P38, Defender, original Discovery, British Leyland if you must - all important cogs and elements in the story of the company but they are not the future.
unrepentant said:
You're completely wrong. Most US consumers have no idea what a Defender is. The company was launched here in 1987 as Range Rover and that is the car that people most recognize.
As someone who lived in the USA for two years in the bleak mid west, I was amazed to find so many locals who not only knew about the Defender, but also loved it and lamented the fact Land Rover no longer sold it in the USA. I have no doubt plenty do not know about it... but a surprising number do... it was they who killed off the DC100. unrepentant said:
The Defender is part of the heritage of the brand just like the E-Type is part of the heritage of Jaguar and the 250 GTO is part of the heritage of Ferrari. Heritage, history, the past. Wilks brothers, Spen King, Series 1, Road Rover, Classic Range Rover, P38, Defender, original Discovery, British Leyland if you must - all important cogs and elements in the story of the company but they are not the future.
The problem with that analogy is that your listed examples have nothing to gain for being basic, modular, rough and tumble bare-bones vehicles. Some products benefit from a less is more outlook, the Defender being one of them.
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