Off to look at a RR classic tomorrow.. advice please
Discussion
Hi Guys,
Diving in to the great unknown a little here but very excited.
Tomorrow I'm off to have a look at an 87/88 (exposed hinge) 3.5 Range Rover.
Car sounds pretty good and looks okay. I've read up all the buyers guides I can find but would appreciate any little titbits of advice you've got..
The car is completely standard bar an immobiliser as far as I know.
The owner says that above 60 it is a little bit 'light' and un settled.. This matches up with the other one that I've driven but was wondering what your thoughts are?
I know that it has bubbling paint at the bottom of one of the rear doors and has a hole that needs welding on the inside of the same rear door. They all seem to either go there or have been done before. I'm planning to budget that into the buying price.
Any thoughts on this and other bits to check are gratefully received!
Thanks
Diving in to the great unknown a little here but very excited.
Tomorrow I'm off to have a look at an 87/88 (exposed hinge) 3.5 Range Rover.
Car sounds pretty good and looks okay. I've read up all the buyers guides I can find but would appreciate any little titbits of advice you've got..
The car is completely standard bar an immobiliser as far as I know.
The owner says that above 60 it is a little bit 'light' and un settled.. This matches up with the other one that I've driven but was wondering what your thoughts are?
I know that it has bubbling paint at the bottom of one of the rear doors and has a hole that needs welding on the inside of the same rear door. They all seem to either go there or have been done before. I'm planning to budget that into the buying price.
Any thoughts on this and other bits to check are gratefully received!
Thanks
Look for rust everywhere! Unless its been apart there will almost certainly be some.
Buying guides will be right I imagine about where but briefly -
bulkhead - hard dash not quite so bad
inner wings - not structural
sills - look behind any bodykit
rear wheel arches - easy to see but look under the wheel arch under the rear seat belt mount.
boot floor - flip the rear seats up and pull the carper back and hope you find a floor.
rear cross member - again from underneath, under the carpet by the lower tailgate and between the lower tailgate and bumper.
door out panels are ali so will corrode but its not "rust"
rear door bottoms especially if its an LSE
Check most of the electrics work, unlikely it all will!
Suspension - not air at that age
and lots more
They are great old things but they do need work.
Buying guides will be right I imagine about where but briefly -
bulkhead - hard dash not quite so bad
inner wings - not structural
sills - look behind any bodykit
rear wheel arches - easy to see but look under the wheel arch under the rear seat belt mount.
boot floor - flip the rear seats up and pull the carper back and hope you find a floor.
rear cross member - again from underneath, under the carpet by the lower tailgate and between the lower tailgate and bumper.
door out panels are ali so will corrode but its not "rust"
rear door bottoms especially if its an LSE
Check most of the electrics work, unlikely it all will!
Suspension - not air at that age
and lots more
They are great old things but they do need work.
Brilliant, thank you for that.
Yeah, it's the rust I'm most worried about!
Just got back in from having a look at another one.
This one seemed a good, straight, honest car but had bubbling on the bulkhead which worried me. I'm hoping that tomorrows car has less bubbling.
Have now driven two of them and they are a nice place to sit. Sound so good too.
Yeah, it's the rust I'm most worried about!
Just got back in from having a look at another one.
This one seemed a good, straight, honest car but had bubbling on the bulkhead which worried me. I'm hoping that tomorrows car has less bubbling.
Have now driven two of them and they are a nice place to sit. Sound so good too.
^^^^^^. What DKL said. Lots of panels available, but depends on your skill level (can you weld) & what you want to take on.
Check that you can engage high & low ratios and difflock. If you don't know how then ask the seller to show you. Often the selector is seized due to lack of use - usually frees off with a bit of lubrication & wiggling but its another haggling point if it doesn't work.
If it has the later Borg Warner transfer box difflocking is handled by a viscous coupling. (The high/low selector lever only selects high & low ratio & doesn't allow you to select difflock as with the earlier LT230s. The LT230 knob has what looks like a figure 8 on it.)
A common problem with the Range Rover BW transfer case is a "seized viscous coupling". This can easily be identified by the effect it has on cornering, the tyres will "chirp" or "scrub", as the vehicle is effectively permanently in diff lock. As a confirming check, put transfer case in "neutral", handbrake on, jack up one front wheel and try to turn it, it should turn slowly with resistance, if locked solid the viscous coupling is seized, and will need changing before any damage to the diffs or CV joints occur.
Both tailgates rot as does the bonnet as these are steel. You may find that the rear floor is ally - mine's an 86 & is.
The 3.5 generally doesn't suffer the liner issues of the 3.9 & bigger engines. Rattling that rises & falls with engine speed often indicates worn cam & followers but can be an exhaust gasket blowing.
Handling may be down to worn shocks, springs and suspension bushes.
If its a manual listen for a clunk when you accelerate & decelerate. This can be down to a worn rear A-frame balljoint BUT can also be a sign of excessive wear in the gearbox output shaft splines & that will eventually result in loss of drive & requires a gearbox rebuild.
The auto - ZF 4-speed - doesn't seem to suffer the same problem & if there is wear on this its an easy one to solve as the splined section is an extension piece that bolts onto the autobox output shaft.
A single clunk on pulling away from standing is usually the balljoint.
Good Luck
Check that you can engage high & low ratios and difflock. If you don't know how then ask the seller to show you. Often the selector is seized due to lack of use - usually frees off with a bit of lubrication & wiggling but its another haggling point if it doesn't work.
If it has the later Borg Warner transfer box difflocking is handled by a viscous coupling. (The high/low selector lever only selects high & low ratio & doesn't allow you to select difflock as with the earlier LT230s. The LT230 knob has what looks like a figure 8 on it.)
A common problem with the Range Rover BW transfer case is a "seized viscous coupling". This can easily be identified by the effect it has on cornering, the tyres will "chirp" or "scrub", as the vehicle is effectively permanently in diff lock. As a confirming check, put transfer case in "neutral", handbrake on, jack up one front wheel and try to turn it, it should turn slowly with resistance, if locked solid the viscous coupling is seized, and will need changing before any damage to the diffs or CV joints occur.
Both tailgates rot as does the bonnet as these are steel. You may find that the rear floor is ally - mine's an 86 & is.
The 3.5 generally doesn't suffer the liner issues of the 3.9 & bigger engines. Rattling that rises & falls with engine speed often indicates worn cam & followers but can be an exhaust gasket blowing.
Handling may be down to worn shocks, springs and suspension bushes.
If its a manual listen for a clunk when you accelerate & decelerate. This can be down to a worn rear A-frame balljoint BUT can also be a sign of excessive wear in the gearbox output shaft splines & that will eventually result in loss of drive & requires a gearbox rebuild.
The auto - ZF 4-speed - doesn't seem to suffer the same problem & if there is wear on this its an easy one to solve as the splined section is an extension piece that bolts onto the autobox output shaft.
A single clunk on pulling away from standing is usually the balljoint.
Good Luck
Edited by paintman on Friday 10th October 22:43
Great, just confirmed a few more things for me.
I really hope this one tomorrow is the one as it's the one I'm travelling furthest for.
Thanks again chaps. For all the rust (which scares me) they do seem to be pretty solid old beasts on the mechanical front.
I really hope this one tomorrow is the one as it's the one I'm travelling furthest for.
paintman said:
The 3.5 generally doesn't suffer the liner issues of the 3.9 & bigger engines. Rattling that rises & falls with engine speed often indicates worn cam & followers but can be an exhaust gasket blowing.
The second one I drove had that, assumed tappets which are not adjustable on these I gather. It was more of a tappet noise than a gasket noise. Thanks again chaps. For all the rust (which scares me) they do seem to be pretty solid old beasts on the mechanical front.
Tappets are hydraulic & you are correct.
Requires cam AND tappets to be replaced. Non genuine tappets are NOT
recommended.
Mechanically they are 'big boy's meccano'. Mine's a 1986 3.5EFi & I've owned it since 1994.
ETA. The engine is old technology, thin modern synthetic oils aren't really suited. (I use 15w/40 mineral) It benefits from regular oil & filter changes, failure to do so will result in the 'black death' building up.
Requires cam AND tappets to be replaced. Non genuine tappets are NOT
recommended.
Mechanically they are 'big boy's meccano'. Mine's a 1986 3.5EFi & I've owned it since 1994.
ETA. The engine is old technology, thin modern synthetic oils aren't really suited. (I use 15w/40 mineral) It benefits from regular oil & filter changes, failure to do so will result in the 'black death' building up.
Edited by paintman on Friday 10th October 23:06
Rust - not wishing to worry you but mine's just had hours (and hours) of bodywork and have you seen Dunc's thread.
Look hard!
Exhaust manifold gaskets are common, mine ticks and its annoying.
Is there a link to tomorrow's - you might get a few pointers?
Best of luck, they are what an Englishman should drive if you need a 4x4.
(other dependencies are available and I dare say the same applies)
Look hard!
Exhaust manifold gaskets are common, mine ticks and its annoying.
Is there a link to tomorrow's - you might get a few pointers?
Best of luck, they are what an Englishman should drive if you need a 4x4.
(other dependencies are available and I dare say the same applies)
Looks like Dunks building a new one! Very impressive.
I've done a lot of welding on mine but as I can weld & paint & have all the kit its only my time.
I replaced the top tailgate with one of Famous Four's ally kit ones years ago & very good it is too. You do need to bear in mind with the ally ones that you close by pressing on the sides of the bottom rail, using the middle will bow it & make closure difficult.
Headlining was also doing the bedouin tent act & I replaced that with a Nationwide Trim one. Again, excellent. (There are some good write-ups where people have recovered them though)
Very impressive.I've done a lot of welding on mine but as I can weld & paint & have all the kit its only my time.
I replaced the top tailgate with one of Famous Four's ally kit ones years ago & very good it is too. You do need to bear in mind with the ally ones that you close by pressing on the sides of the bottom rail, using the middle will bow it & make closure difficult.
Headlining was also doing the bedouin tent act & I replaced that with a Nationwide Trim one. Again, excellent. (There are some good write-ups where people have recovered them though)
DKL said:
Rust - not wishing to worry you but mine's just had hours (and hours) of bodywork and have you seen Dunc's thread.
Look hard!
Exhaust manifold gaskets are common, mine ticks and its annoying.
Is there a link to tomorrow's - you might get a few pointers?
Best of luck, they are what an Englishman should drive if you need a 4x4.
(other dependencies are available and I dare say the same applies)
I am worried about the rust! Trust me, that is my main worry here.. Look hard!
Exhaust manifold gaskets are common, mine ticks and its annoying.
Is there a link to tomorrow's - you might get a few pointers?
Best of luck, they are what an Englishman should drive if you need a 4x4.
(other dependencies are available and I dare say the same applies)
Thing is, I accept at the level I'm looking at there will be rust and I'll have to budget for that. I already have one fully restored 1988 car, I'm not after perfection with this. Just something good and tidy that I can enjoy through winter and then maybe next year if it all turns out well.
The car I'm off to view today has got a hole in the usual place where you open the rear passenger door. I know this is going to need welding. In my head I'm factoring this into the cost.
What I'm going to be looking for is any signs at all of bulkhead rust coming through as that seems to be the killer on these.
I haven't got a link for this one but will email you both a couple of pictures across now. Would love any further thoughts on it!
As others have said rust rust.
Mine is having rear arches,sills and front wheel arches, wheels refurb,new tyres and new suspension
The only bits that are really costing any money are the welding everything else is cheap as chips !!! Wish I could weld and paint ... I may have to learn !!
Check the central locking ( if it has it) and the immobiliser, not that expensive to fix but a right faff !!!
Wheels can be refurbed by lepsoms about £100 a corner.
Phib
Mine is having rear arches,sills and front wheel arches, wheels refurb,new tyres and new suspension
The only bits that are really costing any money are the welding everything else is cheap as chips !!! Wish I could weld and paint ... I may have to learn !!
Check the central locking ( if it has it) and the immobiliser, not that expensive to fix but a right faff !!!
Wheels can be refurbed by lepsoms about £100 a corner.
Phib
Some of the panels that make up the bulkhead are available & much can be made from flat sheet. The problem can be the amount of dismantling you might have to do - but bonnet, scuttle panel, wings, doors & seats do unbolt & give plenty of access.
Few link to panels for you:
http://www.froggatts.co.uk/page10.html
http://www.yrmlandrover.com/epages/BT3575.sf/en_GB...
http://www.mm-4x4.com/body-panels-298-c.asp
and some repairs. Don't forget to have a look at dunk7's thread on here:
Sills http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=68771 (Bear in mind that RRC & Disco 1 are on the same chassis. Ignore the links they no longer work. There were pics of the job being done on a RRC before they did the Disco))
Front end http://s866.photobucket.com/user/andy2986/media/P1... Some slight differences but broadly similar.
Mig welding isn't difficult. Just needs a bit of practice, get someone to show you - or see if there are classes near you.
Few link to panels for you:
http://www.froggatts.co.uk/page10.html
http://www.yrmlandrover.com/epages/BT3575.sf/en_GB...
http://www.mm-4x4.com/body-panels-298-c.asp
and some repairs. Don't forget to have a look at dunk7's thread on here:
Sills http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=68771 (Bear in mind that RRC & Disco 1 are on the same chassis. Ignore the links they no longer work. There were pics of the job being done on a RRC before they did the Disco))
Front end http://s866.photobucket.com/user/andy2986/media/P1... Some slight differences but broadly similar.
Mig welding isn't difficult. Just needs a bit of practice, get someone to show you - or see if there are classes near you.
Edited by paintman on Saturday 11th October 08:56
This is a good thread to read about learning to weld with a RR
http://practicallyclassics.phpbbhosts.co.uk/viewto...
http://practicallyclassics.phpbbhosts.co.uk/viewto...
Hi there,
Just been to see it and take it out for a good drive.
I'm making my decision now and any thoughts are welcomed.
Headlining, good.
Wheels n tyres good. All matched Michelin
No service history but engine starts on the button, no smoke or tappet noise. No oil leaks
Corrosion - the biggy.
Inside of rear doors is good. The expected hole is smaller than I expected.
Door bottoms and top/bottom tailgate all have bubbling
Boot floor and front floor is solid
The gutter above the front screen has bubbling
There is a small bit of bubbling at the base of the screen but tiny
Leather is tired!
Rev counter doesn't work and speedo is wavey
I'm thinking a suspension refresh and lower half repaint - any ideas on cost for these?
Oh. And brakes are imbalanced..
Just been to see it and take it out for a good drive.
I'm making my decision now and any thoughts are welcomed.
Headlining, good.
Wheels n tyres good. All matched Michelin
No service history but engine starts on the button, no smoke or tappet noise. No oil leaks
Corrosion - the biggy.
Inside of rear doors is good. The expected hole is smaller than I expected.
Door bottoms and top/bottom tailgate all have bubbling
Boot floor and front floor is solid
The gutter above the front screen has bubbling
There is a small bit of bubbling at the base of the screen but tiny
Leather is tired!
Rev counter doesn't work and speedo is wavey
I'm thinking a suspension refresh and lower half repaint - any ideas on cost for these?
Oh. And brakes are imbalanced..
Re suspension depends if you go standard of Bilstein b6, B6's are c. £80 a corner + fitting + springs. Imagine its about £600 all in for bilstein and c. £300 all in for standard.
From memory the scuttle panel unbolts and the windscreen surrounds are still available from a couple of places ( c. £50 from memory)
I guess the million dollar question is what your paying and what its worth, imagine for the bits you have mentioned its probably £1k to sort the issues ? \
Thats only in my humble opinion.
At the moment there seem to be perfect ones which is loads of money and then ones that need work and are tired, purely as a guess I wold imagine its worth £3k at the moment ?
Phib
From memory the scuttle panel unbolts and the windscreen surrounds are still available from a couple of places ( c. £50 from memory)
I guess the million dollar question is what your paying and what its worth, imagine for the bits you have mentioned its probably £1k to sort the issues ? \
Thats only in my humble opinion.
At the moment there seem to be perfect ones which is loads of money and then ones that need work and are tired, purely as a guess I wold imagine its worth £3k at the moment ?
Phib
Rev counter is fed from the alternator. Could be as simple as a wire off or a bad connection.
The speedo wavering could be the angle drive at the back of the speedo needing a good clean & re-grease. Did that on mine & the wavering stopped completely.
The scuttle panel does unbolt but on an exposed hinge you need to remove the bonnet as the bonnet mounts go though it(I don't know if the concealed hinge needs the bonnet off or not).
If that's really all the corrosion there is then it sounds very good indeed. The earlier ones do tend to be better corrosion wise than the later.
Standard springs & shocks aren't expensive. Suspension bushes aren't either. But it does depend on what you can do yourself.
No idea on a bottom half respray as it varies from area to area & bodyshop to bodyshop. Be worth asking for recommendations on a LR specific site.
Brake imbalance could be many things & the system would need a thorough going over. If it pulls to one side on braking then the fault is usually on the opposite side.
Manual or auto?
I'm assuming from the year that its non ABS?
Flapper or hotwire?
Aircon?
BW or LT transfer?
ETA. I note in one of your posts you say you already have a 'fully restored 1988 car'. Is that another RRC?
ETA2. A RRC with no oil leaks is empty.....
The speedo wavering could be the angle drive at the back of the speedo needing a good clean & re-grease. Did that on mine & the wavering stopped completely.
The scuttle panel does unbolt but on an exposed hinge you need to remove the bonnet as the bonnet mounts go though it(I don't know if the concealed hinge needs the bonnet off or not).
If that's really all the corrosion there is then it sounds very good indeed. The earlier ones do tend to be better corrosion wise than the later.
Standard springs & shocks aren't expensive. Suspension bushes aren't either. But it does depend on what you can do yourself.
No idea on a bottom half respray as it varies from area to area & bodyshop to bodyshop. Be worth asking for recommendations on a LR specific site.
Brake imbalance could be many things & the system would need a thorough going over. If it pulls to one side on braking then the fault is usually on the opposite side.
Manual or auto?
I'm assuming from the year that its non ABS?
Flapper or hotwire?
Aircon?
BW or LT transfer?
ETA. I note in one of your posts you say you already have a 'fully restored 1988 car'. Is that another RRC?
ETA2. A RRC with no oil leaks is empty.....
Edited by paintman on Saturday 11th October 16:53
Well..... I bought it! And I love it.
Thanks for the reply Phib.
I'm pretty happy with what I paid for it, seems fair compared with others out there and I've allowed for a certain amount of work to be done, first plan is to get it to a local Landy Specialist to find out how badly/well I've done.
I didn't pay as much as that for it. I feels like a car worth more.
Paintman, again, great reply. Thank you.
The speedo only wavers below 20mph and is fine up to that. It is also pretty much dead on at motorway+ cruising speeds.
The rev counter has worked twice today and shown it does 2500 @ 70mph. I'd agree that it is alternator based as the a;alternator light usually takes a second to go out and sometimes glows a little.
I'd say there is a fair amount of corrosion on it. But I've gone into this with my eyes open.
It's an auto with no abs - what does flapper wire mean?
And it does have air con, I think. Not working though.
Other than that, all electrics bar the driving lights and left mirror work perfectly.
I've done 140 miles in it today and it's now feeling much better. Also braking in a near straight line now too!
My other car (the excuse for buying this as a winter car) is a 'new' Saab 900 T16s with lots and lots spent on it that will be going into the garage for winter shortly.
I'm just about to add pictures and make a 'Readers Ride' thread so you guys can tell me what I've just financially ruined myself with
Thanks for the reply Phib.
I'm pretty happy with what I paid for it, seems fair compared with others out there and I've allowed for a certain amount of work to be done, first plan is to get it to a local Landy Specialist to find out how badly/well I've done.
I didn't pay as much as that for it. I feels like a car worth more.
Paintman, again, great reply. Thank you.
The speedo only wavers below 20mph and is fine up to that. It is also pretty much dead on at motorway+ cruising speeds.
The rev counter has worked twice today and shown it does 2500 @ 70mph. I'd agree that it is alternator based as the a;alternator light usually takes a second to go out and sometimes glows a little.
I'd say there is a fair amount of corrosion on it. But I've gone into this with my eyes open.
It's an auto with no abs - what does flapper wire mean?
And it does have air con, I think. Not working though.
Other than that, all electrics bar the driving lights and left mirror work perfectly.
I've done 140 miles in it today and it's now feeling much better. Also braking in a near straight line now too!
My other car (the excuse for buying this as a winter car) is a 'new' Saab 900 T16s with lots and lots spent on it that will be going into the garage for winter shortly.
I'm just about to add pictures and make a 'Readers Ride' thread so you guys can tell me what I've just financially ruined myself with
Welcome to the madhouse
Flapper or Hotwire refers to the fuel injection air flow meter and ECU type.
This link will show you what each look like:
http://www.carelect.demon.co.uk/rrind.html
The Flapper ECU (4CU)have a certain reputation - I've had two die on me. BUT as I'm also on LPG & the 4CU only controls fuelling a switch to LPG has restored normal service until I could replace the ECU.
The hotwire is less problematic & can be plugged into diagnostics. AIUI the hotwire system can be installed as a replacement for the flapper. Unfortunately I don't have the instructions on how to do that & the specialist who says its easy wasn't very forthcoming on how to DIY - but LRs are his business so perhaps understandable.
Your speedo is doing exactly what mine did. I removed the angle drive from the rear of the speedo, flushed it thoroughly with WD40 which removed the old hardened grease & regreased it. Its end cap is staked in place but - at your own risk - it is possible to remove it to do this.
With the alternator check & clean all connections. If it glows faintly (check at night) it can be a sign that the diode pack has failed. This can be replaced but a recon alternator might be the best option. Bear in mind that a slack belt can also cause this & I find a proper alternator drive belt - toothed - is best.
On a positive note, with a RRC you'll never be stuck for something to do
Flapper or Hotwire refers to the fuel injection air flow meter and ECU type.
This link will show you what each look like:
http://www.carelect.demon.co.uk/rrind.html
The Flapper ECU (4CU)have a certain reputation - I've had two die on me. BUT as I'm also on LPG & the 4CU only controls fuelling a switch to LPG has restored normal service until I could replace the ECU.
The hotwire is less problematic & can be plugged into diagnostics. AIUI the hotwire system can be installed as a replacement for the flapper. Unfortunately I don't have the instructions on how to do that & the specialist who says its easy wasn't very forthcoming on how to DIY - but LRs are his business so perhaps understandable.
Your speedo is doing exactly what mine did. I removed the angle drive from the rear of the speedo, flushed it thoroughly with WD40 which removed the old hardened grease & regreased it. Its end cap is staked in place but - at your own risk - it is possible to remove it to do this.
With the alternator check & clean all connections. If it glows faintly (check at night) it can be a sign that the diode pack has failed. This can be replaced but a recon alternator might be the best option. Bear in mind that a slack belt can also cause this & I find a proper alternator drive belt - toothed - is best.
On a positive note, with a RRC you'll never be stuck for something to do
Edited by paintman on Saturday 11th October 22:21
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