RRC Starting Problem
Discussion
CAPP0 said:
Thanks for the suggestions above. Answers in sequence…
There's a spark when cranking, I haven't checked a plug for wetness though, that'll have to be next.
I don't have access to any fault readers which would work with this. I guess Rovergauge is the cheaper option although would have to work out the "make your own cable" task. Mind you at this rate I imagine an investment in ECUMate might save a lot more hair-tearing.
Is the diag connector the blue 3-pin under the steering column?
Unfortunately I don't know anyone locally with the same car to test another ECU. However there is a good indy not too far from me, who has worked on my L322, so I might have a chat with him.
Mine doesn't have lambda sensors fitted (although it does have the plugs on the harness). I did check with the previous owner and he said they were never there when he had the car,
Never mind scattergun, flame gun is starting to sound like an option!
Thanks again for sticking with me on this lengthy saga and offering suggestions chaps, I do genuinely appreciate this. Looking forward to nailing it now.
ECUmate uses the white "Testbook" connector.There's a spark when cranking, I haven't checked a plug for wetness though, that'll have to be next.
I don't have access to any fault readers which would work with this. I guess Rovergauge is the cheaper option although would have to work out the "make your own cable" task. Mind you at this rate I imagine an investment in ECUMate might save a lot more hair-tearing.
Is the diag connector the blue 3-pin under the steering column?
Unfortunately I don't know anyone locally with the same car to test another ECU. However there is a good indy not too far from me, who has worked on my L322, so I might have a chat with him.
Mine doesn't have lambda sensors fitted (although it does have the plugs on the harness). I did check with the previous owner and he said they were never there when he had the car,
Never mind scattergun, flame gun is starting to sound like an option!
Thanks again for sticking with me on this lengthy saga and offering suggestions chaps, I do genuinely appreciate this. Looking forward to nailing it now.
RicksAlfas said:
I bought a cable from the Rovergauge man as I couldn't be bothered to make my own.
It plugs in under the driver's seat into a white three pronged connector.
At the moment it should be plugged into an earthing connector, so you split it to plug Rovergauge in.
Hope that makes sense!
Found this image:
http://www.paulslore.com/aulro/IMG_3804.JPG
In normal use those two white halves should be connected.
Thanks - have just ordered one, electronics and soldering are not my strong point so I could do without any false readings as a result of blobbing solder across a pair or contacts! It plugs in under the driver's seat into a white three pronged connector.
At the moment it should be plugged into an earthing connector, so you split it to plug Rovergauge in.
Hope that makes sense!
Found this image:
http://www.paulslore.com/aulro/IMG_3804.JPG
In normal use those two white halves should be connected.
Well, the cable arrived today. Installed Rovergauge and the drivers, connected up, and Compuer Says No….Fault Found 
No error codes, everything green, I can run (and hear) the fuel pump from the software, etc etc etc.
Back round in a big circle. Still looking for the voltage-drop needle in the complex-loom haystack.
Plus, I mistakenly left my (decent) battery charger under the bonnet, which promptly fell onto the exhaust manifold and melted.
Anyone want to buy an RRC?
No error codes, everything green, I can run (and hear) the fuel pump from the software, etc etc etc.
Back round in a big circle. Still looking for the voltage-drop needle in the complex-loom haystack.
Plus, I mistakenly left my (decent) battery charger under the bonnet, which promptly fell onto the exhaust manifold and melted.
Anyone want to buy an RRC?
CAPP0 said:
Thought I'd try and pick the brains of the RRC experts here 
You might recall, I bought a 3.9 Vogue a month or so back, knowing that it had a starting problem. The issue is, sometimes it will start immediately, but other times it just churns and churns over, occasionally catching a single fire but not starting. A further symptom is that often, when this happens, it will fire when you release the key.
So, basics first, I replaced the dist cap and rotor arm. Cap says it is Lucas but I remember something about Lucas-branded stuff now being some Italian import? Anyway, either the original or replacement items have made no difference.
It has had all manner of possibly-related parts replaced before I bought it (including airflow sensor, stepper motor and throttle position sensor, it has also had a new distributor, which is free and moves under vacuum, and new plugs and leads although from looking at receipts I'm not sure the plugs are premium-quality). I have also put a brand-new battery on (because on a cold day, inching the original one out of the battery well with my fingertips, it slipped and fell to the floor with obvious consequences
)
Then I wondered about vacuum leaks. Have checked all over the place and also sprayed carb cleaner all around the vacuum system but nothing from that.
Next thing was engine earths. I stuck a jump lead from the battery to the water pump and lo, it started instantly. Bingo, I thought, but then it went back to doing the same thing even with the jump lead in place.
Then I wondered whether the ignition switch was faulty and was cutting the coil feed when you turn to the start position. Jumped a 12v live straight onto the coil and lo, it started instantly. Bingo, I thought, but then it went back to doing the same thing even with the jump lead in place.
It has to be something ridiculous and simple, because sometimes it will start fine, and once it's running, it runs fine (although does seem a little down on power, but we can come back to that another day!).
I'm wondering about ECU earth, since that is under the seat and the floor in the driver's footwell is poorly. I'll have a look at that.
Failing that I guess I'm into a full diagnostic of all the injection system, but as I said, I sense it may be simple. Anyone got any other ideas/had anything similar?
TIA.
Have you verified that there is power to the ignition coil when cranking?You might recall, I bought a 3.9 Vogue a month or so back, knowing that it had a starting problem. The issue is, sometimes it will start immediately, but other times it just churns and churns over, occasionally catching a single fire but not starting. A further symptom is that often, when this happens, it will fire when you release the key.
So, basics first, I replaced the dist cap and rotor arm. Cap says it is Lucas but I remember something about Lucas-branded stuff now being some Italian import? Anyway, either the original or replacement items have made no difference.
It has had all manner of possibly-related parts replaced before I bought it (including airflow sensor, stepper motor and throttle position sensor, it has also had a new distributor, which is free and moves under vacuum, and new plugs and leads although from looking at receipts I'm not sure the plugs are premium-quality). I have also put a brand-new battery on (because on a cold day, inching the original one out of the battery well with my fingertips, it slipped and fell to the floor with obvious consequences
)Then I wondered about vacuum leaks. Have checked all over the place and also sprayed carb cleaner all around the vacuum system but nothing from that.
Next thing was engine earths. I stuck a jump lead from the battery to the water pump and lo, it started instantly. Bingo, I thought, but then it went back to doing the same thing even with the jump lead in place.
Then I wondered whether the ignition switch was faulty and was cutting the coil feed when you turn to the start position. Jumped a 12v live straight onto the coil and lo, it started instantly. Bingo, I thought, but then it went back to doing the same thing even with the jump lead in place.
It has to be something ridiculous and simple, because sometimes it will start fine, and once it's running, it runs fine (although does seem a little down on power, but we can come back to that another day!).
I'm wondering about ECU earth, since that is under the seat and the floor in the driver's footwell is poorly. I'll have a look at that.
Failing that I guess I'm into a full diagnostic of all the injection system, but as I said, I sense it may be simple. Anyone got any other ideas/had anything similar?
TIA.
With Rover V8 using ballasted coil there is a bypass terminal on the starter motor to feed power directly to the ignition coil so you get a good spark while cranking. This wire is IIRC white/purple tracer and has a 4.80 terminal on the end.
Once running power to the coil is supplied via the ballast resistor/eureka wire (white/pink tracer).
Since you found no faults with the EFi via diagnostic tool no spark is a likely.
Apologies but I haven't read the whole thread.
Yes, there's a spark when cranking, and, in the latest development…..WET PLUGS.
So, I have compression, fuel, a spark, and it's obviously timed right (or near enough) because it eventually runs. I had a timing light on it last month and it's close to spot-on.
I did notice today that when cranking with a plug out, the spark is not as big & fat as I would like to see (also, guess which engine decided to finally start whilst there was a plug out ). Perhaps this is linked with the "firing when key released" voltage problem. I also jumped for the battery to the positive post under the dash, where it comes in from the engine bay and feeds various things including the ECU, etc, just in case there was any issue with the connector itself, but no.
So I think I may now be heading back to ignition to see if I can find any reason why the spark seems weak when cranking. It has a new coil already.
So, I have compression, fuel, a spark, and it's obviously timed right (or near enough) because it eventually runs. I had a timing light on it last month and it's close to spot-on.
I did notice today that when cranking with a plug out, the spark is not as big & fat as I would like to see (also, guess which engine decided to finally start whilst there was a plug out
). Perhaps this is linked with the "firing when key released" voltage problem. I also jumped for the battery to the positive post under the dash, where it comes in from the engine bay and feeds various things including the ECU, etc, just in case there was any issue with the connector itself, but no.So I think I may now be heading back to ignition to see if I can find any reason why the spark seems weak when cranking. It has a new coil already.
CAPP0 said:
Yes, there's a spark when cranking, and, in the latest development…..WET PLUGS.
So, I have compression, fuel, a spark, and it's obviously timed right (or near enough) because it eventually runs. I had a timing light on it last month and it's close to spot-on.
I did notice today that when cranking with a plug out, the spark is not as big & fat as I would like to see (also, guess which engine decided to finally start whilst there was a plug out ). Perhaps this is linked with the "firing when key released" voltage problem. I also jumped for the battery to the positive post under the dash, where it comes in from the engine bay and feeds various things including the ECU, etc, just in case there was any issue with the connector itself, but no.
So I think I may now be heading back to ignition to see if I can find any reason why the spark seems weak when cranking. It has a new coil already.
You need to check how wet the plugs are when it doesn't start. I suggest that you look at the cost of scattergun replacement of the ignition system, but select a vendor with a good reputation. Very easy to purchase sub-standard components. Could retain existing HT leads to plugs at this stage, unlikely that several would intermittently fail to a non-start, but certainly replace the king lead.So, I have compression, fuel, a spark, and it's obviously timed right (or near enough) because it eventually runs. I had a timing light on it last month and it's close to spot-on.
I did notice today that when cranking with a plug out, the spark is not as big & fat as I would like to see (also, guess which engine decided to finally start whilst there was a plug out
). Perhaps this is linked with the "firing when key released" voltage problem. I also jumped for the battery to the positive post under the dash, where it comes in from the engine bay and feeds various things including the ECU, etc, just in case there was any issue with the connector itself, but no.So I think I may now be heading back to ignition to see if I can find any reason why the spark seems weak when cranking. It has a new coil already.
The spark should be fearsomely powerful with a big crack from HT lead to earth and the capability to cross and inch or more of air. Need to check if your ignition system can be damaged by operating partially dismantled, my understanding is that the hotwire ignition system is similar to "flapper" which seems to function without damage when partially dismantled.
Suggest also scattergun replace the fuel pump relay and the main relay (if age and supplier are unknown).
Have you tried in-line HT lead testers for easy verification that a spark exists? Can be left in place fitted between the plug and the HT lead.
V8 Fettler said:
but select a vendor with a good reputation.
Do you have any suggestions for brand and vendor? I'm aware of some of the issues with HT parts, and I certainly won't be buying Britpart, but would appreciate a steer. I did already replace the dist cap (Lucas-boxed) and rotor arm, one of the first things I did. I will check (ref paintman above) the rotor arm, I'm not with the car atm. These are often suggested: http://www.simonbbc.com/
I'll still suggest getting a known good ECU & trying substitution. If you still have the problem then at least you've ruled it out.
Mine's the flapper system & that ECU has something of a reputation - I've had 3 die over the 20 years I've owned the vehicle. Symptoms usually very rich running with loads of black smoke or running very rough.
I do have a built-in diagnostic system though, I just switch to LPG & if normal running is resumed then its a fuelling fault. If it doesn't then its ignition & its invariably been a lead or a plug with the couple I've had.
I did have a misfire after fitting a pattern dizzy cap - on holiday & no choice - which manifested at higher speeds & esp on wet days. Solved by replacing the carbon brush in the good cap.
None of the above have prevented starting though.
As I think I said earlier, I did have an episode on petrol last summer after a very wet & windy night which turned out to be water in the connection at the back between the vehicle loom & the fuel pump wiring. Corrosion in the pins & wire on the car end. Showed 12v on a digital multimeter but wouldn't light a 12v bulb.
I'll still suggest getting a known good ECU & trying substitution. If you still have the problem then at least you've ruled it out.
Mine's the flapper system & that ECU has something of a reputation - I've had 3 die over the 20 years I've owned the vehicle. Symptoms usually very rich running with loads of black smoke or running very rough.
I do have a built-in diagnostic system though, I just switch to LPG & if normal running is resumed then its a fuelling fault. If it doesn't then its ignition & its invariably been a lead or a plug with the couple I've had.
I did have a misfire after fitting a pattern dizzy cap - on holiday & no choice - which manifested at higher speeds & esp on wet days. Solved by replacing the carbon brush in the good cap.
None of the above have prevented starting though.
As I think I said earlier, I did have an episode on petrol last summer after a very wet & windy night which turned out to be water in the connection at the back between the vehicle loom & the fuel pump wiring. Corrosion in the pins & wire on the car end. Showed 12v on a digital multimeter but wouldn't light a 12v bulb.
I've been having a trawl on the net & found this:
"Im wondering if we could copy the 14cux cold start ,must of took a long time to perfect.
Mine was just in the cranking, once the key was released it hopped into life."
From: http://www.porkers.co.uk/topic.asp?p=4&f=8&... which should take you to page 4, look for the 1st August 2012 post by 'ChimpofDarkness'
Whilst it's on a Porsche forum, the car is a TVR.
May not be of any help but something to look at?
"Im wondering if we could copy the 14cux cold start ,must of took a long time to perfect.
Mine was just in the cranking, once the key was released it hopped into life."
From: http://www.porkers.co.uk/topic.asp?p=4&f=8&... which should take you to page 4, look for the 1st August 2012 post by 'ChimpofDarkness'
Whilst it's on a Porsche forum, the car is a TVR.
May not be of any help but something to look at?
Interesting that, I have only skimmed the link so far but is the suggestion that a remap will ease cold starting? Mine does indeed seem to be OK once it's up to temp.
I don't know anyone who has a good ECU I could try. I guess I could take a chance on buying another from ebay but that would be unproven too. Don't suppose there is anyone here with one, within striking distance of NW Kent?
I don't know anyone who has a good ECU I could try. I guess I could take a chance on buying another from ebay but that would be unproven too. Don't suppose there is anyone here with one, within striking distance of NW Kent?
Suggests an issue with the cold start & it fired up as the key is released. Problem is that the discussion includes one of the 'alternative' V8 ignition systems & I'm not sure whether it was with the 14CUX or the alternative one.
Wonder if you might have better luck with an ECU loan from a LR specific site?
It's a risk on ebay, but if the ad says GWO then hopefully it should be. I've bought a couple of 4CU ones from there advertised as GWO & they've been fine - one was a LR factory recon unit.
Wonder if you might have better luck with an ECU loan from a LR specific site?
It's a risk on ebay, but if the ad says GWO then hopefully it should be. I've bought a couple of 4CU ones from there advertised as GWO & they've been fine - one was a LR factory recon unit.
CAPP0 said:
V8 Fettler said:
but select a vendor with a good reputation.
Do you have any suggestions for brand and vendor? I'm aware of some of the issues with HT parts, and I certainly won't be buying Britpart, but would appreciate a steer. I did already replace the dist cap (Lucas-boxed) and rotor arm, one of the first things I did. I will check (ref paintman above) the rotor arm, I'm not with the car atm. No responsibility on my part if either supplier lets you down! I suggest look at costs and availability at the moment, then make a decision.
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