How badly could I mess up?
Discussion
Evening all,
I'm looking at buying a (1990) Defender as a new toy. Problem is, I have no idea what to look for when it comes to buying one.
So, question, being relatively useless when it comes to mechanics, if I test drive it and everything feels ok, and I look underneath for rust (I know what that looks like, I used to have a Ford), and do all the usual car type checks, what are my odds of missing something and how badly wrong can it go??
I don't want to buy a cheap toy that ends up costing twice as much.
Also, how do I know if the diff locks work!?
Thanks
I'm looking at buying a (1990) Defender as a new toy. Problem is, I have no idea what to look for when it comes to buying one.
So, question, being relatively useless when it comes to mechanics, if I test drive it and everything feels ok, and I look underneath for rust (I know what that looks like, I used to have a Ford), and do all the usual car type checks, what are my odds of missing something and how badly wrong can it go??
I don't want to buy a cheap toy that ends up costing twice as much.
Also, how do I know if the diff locks work!?
Thanks
D90 rust areas are :
Top of bulkhead
Front outriggers
Rear cross member
...and any where else moisture can get trapped.....
1990 is just before the tdi IIRC - do you really want a slug of a 2.5 TD ?
I reckon most that age will be showing signs of hard wear and tear, so buy on condition. Most parts are cheap and easy to replace - except bulkheads and chassis....
Top of bulkhead
Front outriggers
Rear cross member
...and any where else moisture can get trapped.....
1990 is just before the tdi IIRC - do you really want a slug of a 2.5 TD ?
I reckon most that age will be showing signs of hard wear and tear, so buy on condition. Most parts are cheap and easy to replace - except bulkheads and chassis....
FraserLFA said:
Evening all,
I'm looking at buying a (1990) Defender as a new toy. Problem is, I have no idea what to look for when it comes to buying one.
So, question, being relatively useless when it comes to mechanics, if I test drive it and everything feels ok, and I look underneath for rust (I know what that looks like, I used to have a Ford), and do all the usual car type checks, what are my odds of missing something and how badly wrong can it go??
The odds are good for it going wrong as Defenders, as any fule knos, are made of cheese and recycled takeaway trays and badly assembled by grumpy midlanders. I'm looking at buying a (1990) Defender as a new toy. Problem is, I have no idea what to look for when it comes to buying one.
So, question, being relatively useless when it comes to mechanics, if I test drive it and everything feels ok, and I look underneath for rust (I know what that looks like, I used to have a Ford), and do all the usual car type checks, what are my odds of missing something and how badly wrong can it go??
FraserLFA said:
Also, how do I know if the diff locks work!?
There's an idiot light on the dash to tell you when the diff lock is engaged.
Only other thing from personal experience is the clunk of death (LT77 gearbox issue - plenty on google to terrify you). You can get another box with cross-drilling to reduce the issue from ashcrofts or find a second-hand one and refit that way. Just listen for any loud metallic thud when taking up drive or letting off the throttle suddenly - if it's a possible 'clunk-of-death' issue the sound will come from under the gearstick. That's a worse-case scenario.
The only trouble is that clunk can just as easily be the natural take-up-of-drive 'clunk' that every Defender with more than 50,000 miles develops, or a slightly worn UJ on a prop, or a diff getting a bit sloppy. Unless it's loud and harsh enough to be heard over the sound of a tdi Defender (so pretty loud) it's the kind of thing to be aware of rather than panic about.
Other than that - usual LR rules apply as others have said. Engines are good (esp. 200/300 tdi), drive-train is generally solid with some exceptions to the rule and the chassis WILL rust. The key is finding one that hasn't rusted too much and/or can be repaired economically if needed.
Most of the issues on mine were of the electrical gremlin variety (regular games of 'which light is going to develop a duff earth this week?') - and the washer jet sometimes blew off (went through three in two years). No amount of superglue ever solved that one....
Ignore my rantings - find a cared-for example, look after it and enjoy it. They are generally reliable and stupidly simple mechanically speaking - the thing that kills them is rust more than issues with moving parts.
The only trouble is that clunk can just as easily be the natural take-up-of-drive 'clunk' that every Defender with more than 50,000 miles develops, or a slightly worn UJ on a prop, or a diff getting a bit sloppy. Unless it's loud and harsh enough to be heard over the sound of a tdi Defender (so pretty loud) it's the kind of thing to be aware of rather than panic about.
Other than that - usual LR rules apply as others have said. Engines are good (esp. 200/300 tdi), drive-train is generally solid with some exceptions to the rule and the chassis WILL rust. The key is finding one that hasn't rusted too much and/or can be repaired economically if needed.
Most of the issues on mine were of the electrical gremlin variety (regular games of 'which light is going to develop a duff earth this week?') - and the washer jet sometimes blew off (went through three in two years). No amount of superglue ever solved that one....
Ignore my rantings - find a cared-for example, look after it and enjoy it. They are generally reliable and stupidly simple mechanically speaking - the thing that kills them is rust more than issues with moving parts.
FraserLFA said:
Evening all,
I'm looking at buying a (1990) Defender as a new toy. Problem is, I have no idea what to look for when it comes to buying one.
So, question, being relatively useless when it comes to mechanics, if I test drive it and everything feels ok, and I look underneath for rust (I know what that looks like, I used to have a Ford), and do all the usual car type checks, what are my odds of missing something and how badly wrong can it go??
I don't want to buy a cheap toy that ends up costing twice as much.
Also, how do I know if the diff locks work!?
Thanks
Toy for what?I'm looking at buying a (1990) Defender as a new toy. Problem is, I have no idea what to look for when it comes to buying one.
So, question, being relatively useless when it comes to mechanics, if I test drive it and everything feels ok, and I look underneath for rust (I know what that looks like, I used to have a Ford), and do all the usual car type checks, what are my odds of missing something and how badly wrong can it go??
I don't want to buy a cheap toy that ends up costing twice as much.
Also, how do I know if the diff locks work!?
Thanks
Frankly, far too many people buying these as fashion accessories. Defenders are for the most part, cramped, crude, noisy and not ideal road manners.
If you want something that is roomy, comfy, refined and good on the road. Look elsewhere. This is not the vehicle for you.
As for buying them. Without wishing to be rude, but they have to about the easiest vehicle to examine and inspect. Far more simple than any modern hatchback and with great access to almost of it.
If you are wanting it for off roading, then what type of off roading?
The reality is, unless you need a 'utility' style truck. A Discovery or Range Rover will suit you more so, with pretty much the same abilities.
LandRoverManiac said:
300BHP - Basically I need something to haul farm crap up muddy tracks. I've driven Defenders before so know the drawbacks, but I still feel there's a certain charm to them. Is there better out there? Probably. Anything else I want (in my price range)? No.
It's only going to be used for short journeys. I've got other cars for comfort, speed etc.
Thanks all!
Afraid I don't know your budget.
Defenders are good utility vehicles, if you are familiar with them, then certainly worth considering. Best thing is, every part is replaceable. But buying on condition rather than spec is more important.
All of the oily bits are pretty easy to change or repair, so I wouldn't worry too much about them, just check it drives, stops and steers ok. Chassis rust is the hardest and most expensive thing to replace. Bulkheads and foot wells can rust too, but very rarely terminally.
As for the drive train, just stick it in low on the test drive and try and engage difflock. You won't really be able to test it unless you jack it up or take it off road however. But its pretty rare that its broken. But if not used much or at all, might be a bit tricky to get to work straight off.
As for engines, the latter the more powerful and generally a more refined and quieter vehicle.
Defenders are circa 1991 onwards with the 200Tdi engine. Anything earlier is not a Defender, it's a Ninety or One Ten. 200 and 300 Tdi are so similar dont worry about which is which. Td5 is probably the nicest engine.
The older 2.5TD engine is a fine work horse, but not overly speedy. Tdi swaps are pretty easy and cost effective on these.
ex MoD usually go for crazy money and are the most basic of basic models. Probably avoided unless they are what you want specifically.
If you don't want a tatty one, don't buy one, unless you are prepared to spend time and money sorting it out.
Also expect niggles. These use old school parts and tech. So while they are generally very robust and durable, they will require more maintenance than more modern vehicles. Many things are also labour intensive, so if you are prepared to get your hands dirty, then they can be very cheap to run. If you aren't, then you could spend a small fortune on labour for relatively simple jobs.
As for alternatives. A Discovery 1 is the best direct candidate. Defender prices are somewhat crazy at the moment, more so than normal because they are trendy fashion items. This means you'll get more Discovery for your money, or maybe even a classic Range Rover.
Now the biggest thing to note is, once you remove the body, the Disco 1 is very very similar to a Defender.
Essentially the same chassis design, just a different wheelbase and slightly lighter duty. They use the same axles, the same transfer box, the same gearbox, the same suspension design, same engine and even the same steering pretty much.
This all means a Disco 1 will do 95%+ the same as Defender. But in a more comfy package and cheaper.
There are other options as well. I quite like these:
This is a Santana PS-10.
Santana used to build CKD kits for Land Rover, but also used to build their own 'improved' variants. This is the last one they built, it's basically a Land Rover 109, but much improved and arguably a better vehicle than a Defender 110. Certainly trumps the genuine Land Rover in many areas. And will set you back about half as much as a Defender 110 too.
Defenders are good utility vehicles, if you are familiar with them, then certainly worth considering. Best thing is, every part is replaceable. But buying on condition rather than spec is more important.
All of the oily bits are pretty easy to change or repair, so I wouldn't worry too much about them, just check it drives, stops and steers ok. Chassis rust is the hardest and most expensive thing to replace. Bulkheads and foot wells can rust too, but very rarely terminally.
As for the drive train, just stick it in low on the test drive and try and engage difflock. You won't really be able to test it unless you jack it up or take it off road however. But its pretty rare that its broken. But if not used much or at all, might be a bit tricky to get to work straight off.
As for engines, the latter the more powerful and generally a more refined and quieter vehicle.
Defenders are circa 1991 onwards with the 200Tdi engine. Anything earlier is not a Defender, it's a Ninety or One Ten. 200 and 300 Tdi are so similar dont worry about which is which. Td5 is probably the nicest engine.
The older 2.5TD engine is a fine work horse, but not overly speedy. Tdi swaps are pretty easy and cost effective on these.
ex MoD usually go for crazy money and are the most basic of basic models. Probably avoided unless they are what you want specifically.
If you don't want a tatty one, don't buy one, unless you are prepared to spend time and money sorting it out.
Also expect niggles. These use old school parts and tech. So while they are generally very robust and durable, they will require more maintenance than more modern vehicles. Many things are also labour intensive, so if you are prepared to get your hands dirty, then they can be very cheap to run. If you aren't, then you could spend a small fortune on labour for relatively simple jobs.
As for alternatives. A Discovery 1 is the best direct candidate. Defender prices are somewhat crazy at the moment, more so than normal because they are trendy fashion items. This means you'll get more Discovery for your money, or maybe even a classic Range Rover.
Now the biggest thing to note is, once you remove the body, the Disco 1 is very very similar to a Defender.
Essentially the same chassis design, just a different wheelbase and slightly lighter duty. They use the same axles, the same transfer box, the same gearbox, the same suspension design, same engine and even the same steering pretty much.
This all means a Disco 1 will do 95%+ the same as Defender. But in a more comfy package and cheaper.
There are other options as well. I quite like these:
This is a Santana PS-10.
Santana used to build CKD kits for Land Rover, but also used to build their own 'improved' variants. This is the last one they built, it's basically a Land Rover 109, but much improved and arguably a better vehicle than a Defender 110. Certainly trumps the genuine Land Rover in many areas. And will set you back about half as much as a Defender 110 too.
In addition to what has been said, I'd pop the hose off the turbo and have a wiggle of the compressor vanes. Bit of sideways movement is OK, in and out not so good.
Don't worry if it belches smoke on initial startup...they all do that sir.
Defender with a 200tdi in it should pull strongly...if not look for split turbo hoses, wheezing and whistling.
If it's a 1990 Ninety with a 200Tdi it's probably been re-engined with a Disco engine. Turbo is sited down low on a Disco engine, up high on a Defender engine. Check for bodged exhausts, bodged air cleaners, and also check the temp gauge works properly. Even if it's buried in the red, it may well be that the engine is actually running at the right temp and you need a different sender for the conversion. 200Tdi runs cool, circa 70 degrees.
See if there is a sticker on the back of the transfer box on the vertical face when viewed from behind. If it says 1.22 it also has a Disco transfer box with more car like ratios. Defender is 1.44. If it has a Disco box you are less likely to have the clunk of death, you will have far more relaxed cruising and better mpg, at the expense of slightly less towing ability. Low range is identical so your farm track work is unaffected. I see a Disco transfer box as A Good Thing.
Examine the chrome on the axle swivels, go from lock to lock to check. If they are pitted they may well have leaked all their oil.
Don't look for rust on the chassis. Tap for it.
Don't worry about buggered propshaft UJs, sloppy steering, interior lights not working etc. All this stuff can easily be fixed, cheaply. As has been pointed out, get one with a solid chassis, a good bulkhead, and an strong engine and box. Bear in mind that there will be some corrosion or repairs on the bulkhead by now, so don't expect perfection.
I agree with 300bhp's point about there are better vehicles. However I've owned Series IIIs, Freelanders, Disco 1s, and now a 110. The 110 is by far and away the one that I love the most, and to be honest now nothing else would come close. I walk past my Boxster to take the 110 to the shops...that would never have happened with any of the others...
Don't worry if it belches smoke on initial startup...they all do that sir.
Defender with a 200tdi in it should pull strongly...if not look for split turbo hoses, wheezing and whistling.
If it's a 1990 Ninety with a 200Tdi it's probably been re-engined with a Disco engine. Turbo is sited down low on a Disco engine, up high on a Defender engine. Check for bodged exhausts, bodged air cleaners, and also check the temp gauge works properly. Even if it's buried in the red, it may well be that the engine is actually running at the right temp and you need a different sender for the conversion. 200Tdi runs cool, circa 70 degrees.
See if there is a sticker on the back of the transfer box on the vertical face when viewed from behind. If it says 1.22 it also has a Disco transfer box with more car like ratios. Defender is 1.44. If it has a Disco box you are less likely to have the clunk of death, you will have far more relaxed cruising and better mpg, at the expense of slightly less towing ability. Low range is identical so your farm track work is unaffected. I see a Disco transfer box as A Good Thing.
Examine the chrome on the axle swivels, go from lock to lock to check. If they are pitted they may well have leaked all their oil.
Don't look for rust on the chassis. Tap for it.
Don't worry about buggered propshaft UJs, sloppy steering, interior lights not working etc. All this stuff can easily be fixed, cheaply. As has been pointed out, get one with a solid chassis, a good bulkhead, and an strong engine and box. Bear in mind that there will be some corrosion or repairs on the bulkhead by now, so don't expect perfection.
I agree with 300bhp's point about there are better vehicles. However I've owned Series IIIs, Freelanders, Disco 1s, and now a 110. The 110 is by far and away the one that I love the most, and to be honest now nothing else would come close. I walk past my Boxster to take the 110 to the shops...that would never have happened with any of the others...
Gassing Station | Land Rover | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff