Wrangler or Defender
Discussion
Harry Flashman said:
I am after a cheapish 4x4 toy for both winter and getting into some light offroading. I thought about buying an early current series Rangie, but decided that £10k was too much to spend on something that will be hacked around and neglected (it will never, for example, be cleaned).
I love Defenders - but they are pricey for what they are: but then I guess condition and spec are the clinchers with these vehicles. Some sort of 300Tdi hybrid would be the thing, for anything up to £6k.
Which could also buy me a Wrangler 4.0 Sahara or similar from the early 2000s. Now I know the Jeep is a pratty good offroader, but not in the same league as a sorted Defender. However, and this is the clincher, I suspect that it will be rather a lot more pleasant in normal winter driving than a Defender, especially on the motorway.And it may actually have a heater that works.
Undoubtedly, the Landie is cooler. But is it as good an all-rounder?
And no suggestions for Pajeros/Troopers etc. It's pretty much down to these two: I wanted something a bit iconic, rather than an excellent but bland Jap machine. Those old Land Cruiser Jeeps (as used by Hammond in the Top Gear Bolivia thing) may have been an option but they are like hens' teeth, and seem to be getting on a bit.
Similarly, I think some sort of early Range Rover based offroad special won't do the road driving thing well enough.
Any insights/experiences appreciated!
I think this is fair and good comparison. And anyone with issues for the Jeep is just an ignorant tI love Defenders - but they are pricey for what they are: but then I guess condition and spec are the clinchers with these vehicles. Some sort of 300Tdi hybrid would be the thing, for anything up to £6k.
Which could also buy me a Wrangler 4.0 Sahara or similar from the early 2000s. Now I know the Jeep is a pratty good offroader, but not in the same league as a sorted Defender. However, and this is the clincher, I suspect that it will be rather a lot more pleasant in normal winter driving than a Defender, especially on the motorway.And it may actually have a heater that works.
Undoubtedly, the Landie is cooler. But is it as good an all-rounder?
And no suggestions for Pajeros/Troopers etc. It's pretty much down to these two: I wanted something a bit iconic, rather than an excellent but bland Jap machine. Those old Land Cruiser Jeeps (as used by Hammond in the Top Gear Bolivia thing) may have been an option but they are like hens' teeth, and seem to be getting on a bit.
Similarly, I think some sort of early Range Rover based offroad special won't do the road driving thing well enough.
Any insights/experiences appreciated!
Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 4th October 14:39
t TBH.The main differences are, the Jeep will be rarer in the UK, but as someone else said, Jeep UK are crap. So support and parts won't be as freely or easily available. That said, there are specialists and importers who are likely to be able to help.
Engine - Apart from the NAS and 50th the Defender has never been fitted with a V8. And you won't get these for the money you are looking at. You might find an older 3.5 carb V8 Ninety, but these are less powerful and the LT85 gearbox is not as nice to use.
The 4.0 S6 is a gem of an engine, easily comparable with a 3.9/4.0 RV8 in terms of power. But generally a bit better on fuel. Out auto 4.0 Cherokee would easily do 18-22mpg compared to 14-16mpg for a 3.9 auto V8 Range Rover. A "tweaked" Tdi Land Rover will be low 20's mpg most likely.
Automatic and manuals. The Defender hasn't been sold with an auto on a diesel engine. So if you want an auto then a Wrangler is a better bet.
In terms of outright refinement and comfort, I suspect they are quite closely matched. The TJ Wrangler has a nicer looking dash and seats and a bit more trim, but probably rides no better and isn't really any quieter. But it will drive better at speed due to the engine and be less tiring IMO.
Off road wise - not a lot in it TBH. Jeep suffers in stock trim with a lower ride height, but it is much easier to lift and arguably has a superior suspension design. Some moan about weak axles, but lets face it, the guys that do are usually running 35" tyres and rock crawling. In short the Dana 35 axle on the back of a Wrangler is at worst better than the chocolate axles Land Rover uses.
+ points for the Wrangler
2wd ability and a TJ should have a part time 4wd feature like a Land Rover and full time 4wd too
Removable roof and doors and a fold down windscreen, which in summer just make it very cool indeed
rarity
Look awesome
Good residuals (even near 20 year YJ's hold their money quite well), but newer vehicle with better spec than a Defender for the same money
Engine
Available of automatic
Options & spec like air con, central locking
+ points for the Defender
Huge community in the UK
More rugged
Better at hauling
Different body styles (hard top, county, pick up)
Better at towing (Wrangler has a silly low tow rating, not mechanically limited more marketing IMO)
Look awesome
cmackay81 said:
Big_Dog said:
I had a 2.5 four pot wrangler for 3 years and nothing dropped off. The roofs a 10 minute job involving loads of zips and velcro.
Off road it was amazing, truly a laugh out loud experience. On the motorway the bonnet bounces up and down but the humour of this soon strays into misery.
I would happily buy another one but probably a V8 just because I really like V8s and it couldn't be much worse on fuel than the 18 I got from the four pot.
did the 2.5 have enough grunt for the steep stuff?Off road it was amazing, truly a laugh out loud experience. On the motorway the bonnet bounces up and down but the humour of this soon strays into misery.
I would happily buy another one but probably a V8 just because I really like V8s and it couldn't be much worse on fuel than the 18 I got from the four pot.
Harry Flashman said:
Also, how easy to put bench seating in the back of a hardtop?
Very easy.Harry Flashman said:
And can you put windows in them - or does that get very pricey (lotsof hardtop commercials for sale, but relatively few windowed/rear seated ones at my budget)
Yep it's possible, don't know prices but I had it done to mine in 1997.Harry Flashman said:
Lastly, anyone know any good 4x4 people in SE London/Kent, for maintenance purposes?
I would think there is a Landy place in every town. Very easy to work on, all nuts and bolts. Specialists are good, but for most things you won't need one. Also Landie's are common enough that almost every mechanic will have worked on them at some point.Harry Flashman said:
Think I've pretty much decided on a Landie from this thread - mainly because it's my personal preference, but also because parts/maintenance seems rather easier on them. But I am going to have to do quite a lot of research, as it would appear that there are some rotters out there...
Don't disregard the Wrangler, I'd seriously drive both and see.Personally I'm a huge Land Rover fan and have owned a few and been involved with them for a long, long time.
But in stock trim a Tdi is noisy (even more so if a hard top with no headlining) and not that quick. Stock for stock a 4.0 litre Wrangler will feel night and day difference in performance.
e.g.
I think a stock tdi 90 does 0-60mph in 15-17sec!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A 4.0 manual Wrangler is more like 8.8sec.
As for maintenance, I wouldn't worry too much. Again the Jeep is all nuts and bolts, so easy to work on for any mechanic. Parts prices can be an issue, but just don't use the main dealers unless you have too. I also suspect places like USAutomotive probably carry most service items in stock on the shelf.
As for rotters. Yes rust can be an issue. But don't dwell on it. Remember on a Landy (but also true of the Jeep) you can replace every single part if you want to. That's the great thing about them, there really is no limitation to what can be repaired and upgraded.
Even an entire new chassis is not out of the question.
i would agree with pretty much everything that 300 said except i think it's a bit unfair to compare a tdi 90 with a 4.0 wrangler. a 90 v8 will be much close in performance terms.
running costs would likely be similar. more things will break on the land rover but the parts will be significantly cheaper. i've never owned a wranglerbut had a few xj's and several defenders.
running costs would likely be similar. more things will break on the land rover but the parts will be significantly cheaper. i've never owned a wranglerbut had a few xj's and several defenders.
Lefty said:
i would agree with pretty much everything that 300 said except i think it's a bit unfair to compare a tdi 90 with a 4.0 wrangler. a 90 v8 will be much close in performance terms.
True, but as I said, only the NAS and 50th Anni 90's had V8's in and neither can be had for £6k. The 50th is auto only. So against the clock I think it'd still be lagging.3.5 carb V8's only had 137hp and the slow LT85 makes quick gear changes impossible.
300bhp/ton said:
Lefty said:
i would agree with pretty much everything that 300 said except i think it's a bit unfair to compare a tdi 90 with a 4.0 wrangler. a 90 v8 will be much close in performance terms.
True, but as I said, only the NAS and 50th Anni 90's had V8's in and neither can be had for £6k. The 50th is auto only. So against the clock I think it'd still be lagging.3.5 carb V8's only had 137hp and the slow LT85 makes quick gear changes impossible.
In fact, I'm in the process of changing my 4-speed 110 3.5 to an r380 3.9 at the moment and it's not stupidly dear.
I paid 1900 for my '86 110 with a galv chassis. Recon r380 and used LT230 for £700. Tunnel, diaphragm and seatbox for £55 from ebay. New r380 bellhousing from ashcrofts for £100. Recently rebuilt carb 3.9 for £600. Brand new v8 props £200. New gearknobs £30
No reason why this couldn't be done to a 90 for the same money. And I've already got a buyer lined up for my 4-speed box. They are apparently popular on the rtv scene because they are so strong. Hopefully I'll get a few quid for my 3.5 too, even if it's only £50.
Lefty said:
I paid 1900 for my '86 110 with a galv chassis. Recon r380 and used LT230 for £700. Tunnel, diaphragm and seatbox for £55 from ebay. New r380 bellhousing from ashcrofts for £100. Recently rebuilt carb 3.9 for £600. Brand new v8 props £200. New gearknobs £30
La la la, I'm not listening.You're really not helping me stave off my desire for a Defender project
300bhp/ton said:
Even an entire new chassis is not out of the question.
Yep, my local specialist does it for about £1500 in labour (he's £33/hour). Brand new galv chassis for a 90 is approx £1400 IIRC so ~£3k all-in, much of which will be recovered on resale. I would estimate that a galv chassis tends to command a £1000-1500 premium or so on older Landies. With a dodgy chassis my 110 would have been lucky to make a grand on ebay.
Bill said:
Lefty said:
I paid 1900 for my '86 110 with a galv chassis. Recon r380 and used LT230 for £700. Tunnel, diaphragm and seatbox for £55 from ebay. New r380 bellhousing from ashcrofts for £100. Recently rebuilt carb 3.9 for £600. Brand new v8 props £200. New gearknobs £30
La la la, I'm not listening.You're really not helping me stave off my desire for a Defender project
I'll take some pics of mine and post them up...ETA:
I should really point out that even with those mechanical bits sorted and a lovely new v8 it still needs:
A new rear tub (floorpan is very rusty)
New headlining (saggy, ripped and filthy)
New roof (sunroof leaks like a b'stard and i want a smooth roof)
New doors (frames are rusty although I may just rebuild cause I do like the sliding tops)
New mid-row and loadbay seats (and belts!)
A good coat or 3 of paint.
So it's a bit of work to make her really nice again.
Edited by Lefty on Friday 8th October 12:55
Lefty said:
300bhp/ton said:
Lefty said:
i would agree with pretty much everything that 300 said except i think it's a bit unfair to compare a tdi 90 with a 4.0 wrangler. a 90 v8 will be much close in performance terms.
True, but as I said, only the NAS and 50th Anni 90's had V8's in and neither can be had for £6k. The 50th is auto only. So against the clock I think it'd still be lagging.3.5 carb V8's only had 137hp and the slow LT85 makes quick gear changes impossible.
In fact, I'm in the process of changing my 4-speed 110 3.5 to an r380 3.9 at the moment and it's not stupidly dear.
I paid 1900 for my '86 110 with a galv chassis. Recon r380 and used LT230 for £700. Tunnel, diaphragm and seatbox for £55 from ebay. New r380 bellhousing from ashcrofts for £100. Recently rebuilt carb 3.9 for £600. Brand new v8 props £200. New gearknobs £30
No reason why this couldn't be done to a 90 for the same money. And I've already got a buyer lined up for my 4-speed box. They are apparently popular on the rtv scene because they are so strong. Hopefully I'll get a few quid for my 3.5 too, even if it's only £50.
viperboy said:
Sorry but I really hate idiotic posts like this. All it proves is the poster is a fool and evidently and blatantly doesn't understand tyres and driver have vastly more affect on a vehicles off road ability.300bhp/ton said:
viperboy said:
Sorry but I really hate idiotic posts like this. All it proves is the poster is a fool and evidently and blatantly doesn't understand tyres and driver have vastly more affect on a vehicles off road ability. I agree though, any comparison from the video is pointless without the facts.By the way, I know of a nice black 4.0 jeep for sale if anyone's interested.
Cheers,
FT.
Fume troll said:
300bhp/ton said:
viperboy said:
Sorry but I really hate idiotic posts like this. All it proves is the poster is a fool and evidently and blatantly doesn't understand tyres and driver have vastly more affect on a vehicles off road ability. I agree though, any comparison from the video is pointless without the facts.By the way, I know of a nice black 4.0 jeep for sale if anyone's interested.
Cheers,
FT.
Same with tyres, on slippery grass AT's won't get you anywhere while an identical vehicle on some Simexes will have far less trouble.
300bhp/ton said:
Fume troll said:
300bhp/ton said:
viperboy said:
Sorry but I really hate idiotic posts like this. All it proves is the poster is a fool and evidently and blatantly doesn't understand tyres and driver have vastly more affect on a vehicles off road ability. I agree though, any comparison from the video is pointless without the facts.By the way, I know of a nice black 4.0 jeep for sale if anyone's interested.
Cheers,
FT.
Cheers,
FT.
Fume troll said:
300bhp/ton said:
Fume troll said:
300bhp/ton said:
viperboy said:
Sorry but I really hate idiotic posts like this. All it proves is the poster is a fool and evidently and blatantly doesn't understand tyres and driver have vastly more affect on a vehicles off road ability. I agree though, any comparison from the video is pointless without the facts.By the way, I know of a nice black 4.0 jeep for sale if anyone's interested.
Cheers,
FT.
Cheers,
FT.
yes being bad at offroading can get you in alot of trouble, but in the end, if you don't have the break-over angle to get over the top of a hill, or enough approach or departure angle to even get up the hill, then you aint getting anywhere!
Yes you can drive through a course on road tyres, but if you stop for a second you'll get stuck and it will be a b*gger to rock out.
in the end it is much more about the vehicle than people are accepting here. There seems to be a thing that someone great at offroading could take a yaris through a quarry, whilst someone not so good couldn't follow in a jeep. sorry but no.
And because of that, it DOES matter what you are driving if you want to go offroad. This type of advice will end up in people trying to get their X3 offroad :P
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