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johnbear

Original Poster:

1,531 posts

105 months

[news] 
Monday 14th May 2012 quote quote all
I need some advice on what to do with person who has stolen data from my business and is passing off his business as mine.

Two years ago I set up a consultancy specialising in helping business cut their costs with Adwords and yet at the same time increase sales. The actual approach took me a long time to refine and has delivered great results.

But as with all businesses I needed sales and had started calling businesses explain my services. A friend at the time recommended this guy who I interviewed and took on to generate sales on a sub contract basis.

Initial this sales guy appeared as dumb as a bag of hammers, but could cold call and convince prospects to take a demo with me. I was very transparent and explained why they were not performing, most became customers and we started to grow. The sales guy kept making small slip ups and I began to think that he was not technical but rather savvy with customers. I started to see this dumbness was an act. In the end he admitted as much, with him claiming it avoided me asking him questions.

As we expanded, I trained to him to provide client review and despite always missing sales targets, we were close enough. The relation with our sales guy was always difficult. He would try and bully staff, con staff out of money and sensed to get a twisted kick of trying to con people. I even caught him trying to humiliate a member of staff for their weight. We kept him on the straight and narrow but it was hard work. As we grew staff became to notice that he sales figures were works of fiction and he needed to be kept under close control. He would on many occasions just explode in the office. Writing this, it seems odd, but at the time he had conditioned us to his odd behaviour. He in retrospect wasn’t a good sale person by any means but was very good at convincing us he was. The one thing he can sell is himself.

Fast forward 12 months and the business had grown to several staff and all is fine and we recruited a second sales person. At which point our sales guy starts to behave really oddly after he returns from his holiday. He falls out with the office and works to rule refusing to speak to staff. I had brought a new car and he seemed to resent his work being used to benefit me. We are really concerned, suspecting he may be having a breakdown. He assures us he was fine, but he begins to go on about at the 7th Jan as if it the end of the world day! It was really odd. He’d come in with the laces on his shoes undone regularly or with his shirt half undone. It was odd. He began getting real kicks of conning people in this free time. He’d con sandwich bars out of food, businesses out of donations for school fund raising etc. His behaviour was becoming a serious problem and he was counselled several time on it.

He one day asks from time off to attend court. I query him about it and it’s to attend a trading standards investigation for credit card fraud by Cheshire Trading Standards! Apparently he was the Managing Director (Sapphire Blue Consulting), but he it was his partner (Adrian Park) who is being potentially deported to the Philippines for fraud fault. See -http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/chester-news/local-chester-news/2010/12/02/pulford-businessman-could-face-extradition-to-the-philippines-59067-27752319/. The whole thing seems fishy.

I can’t believe this and I am shocked - I cannot be associated with anyone like this.

He takes a very late lunch and another member of staff spots him at office for let in December. We’re in a rural location so he has no reason to be there. After some calls I find out he has taken on an office lease down the road from us. I confront him about this next day and he just leaves after I had to hear his wife yelling down the phone whilst on speaker that we haven’t appreciated him enough. It was werid. As he was in recruitment I assumed he just returning to start a recruitment business, but one of the staff suspect he was trying take the whole sale team and some mentors. Over Christmas we all concluded that we’d had a person in our midst who’s heart was more aligned with the con artist than a sales person. Our focus on customers had kept his natural instincts at bay.

Anyway in January, he starts up a business that has the same initials as our, but were as we are called Rescue he is called Response. He had registered a new company a few days before I confronted him. He had copied our entire business model and concept even down to the website text. It then transpires he is calling our entire prospects list. He had stolen 12,000 contact details from our prospects database plus our customer database. These were on individual spreadsheets that he had gone out of his way to copy. The amazing thing was he had no knowledge of how to deliver the service, but to be safe his wife was the managing Director. He always had a thing about warning people about being struck off as a director.

Initially, I turned a blind eye to this, but it got the better of me and I went to his offices and confronted him. The police ended up being called and some coffee fell into his laptop which he’d taken from me. The laptop didn’t make it and had to be put down – sorry laptop lovers.

The police aren’t interested. Today I find out even his terms and welcome letters are word for word copies of ours. He calls prospects saying he’s from the initials but not adding Response. We’ve sent letters warning clients.

The whole matter is difficult on two levels for me. He stole our data, tried to steal staff and customers and recruited an individual to delivery his mentoring service that has no experience, no system and no qualifications in mentoring. Luckily, he never paid attention to service delivery and has no idea how to deliver the service. The benefits he delivers are non existent and his clients regularly call us, but it may create a bad image for our niche. It has turned out that the market, I suspected as being niche is truly niche with room for one. We’ve had to start moving into other markets as it can only support one business.

But the real issue is anyone he sells to. I have built a business that has successful turned around 100’s of businesses online. Many were at the point of closure and we helped them to recovery and success. But others looking for genuine help are going to be taken advantage of.

The question is what should I do?

Kudos

2,107 posts

44 months

[news] 
Monday 14th May 2012 quote quote all
Do you have proof he took the data? If so I'd say there could be some legal angle there. I setup an IT system for a friend and caught someone mailing customer lists to themselves which got them in trouble

ringram

12,271 posts

118 months

[news] 
Monday 14th May 2012 quote quote all
Sounds like someone to ignore.

Just contact customers with a warning note and some nice level headed info and suggest if they want more information or would like to speak to anyone about it to contact you. might be a good angle on a marketing campaign wink

He will go bankrupt and fail before too long IMO.

JustinP1

10,293 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 14th May 2012 quote quote all
johnbear said:
The question is what should I do?
I did some interesting sidelines in elective topics as part of my business degree. I am no means a professional in either of these areas, but from what you have said:

1) The guy has psychopathic tendencies.

2) He has broken the law if he has stolen your client list.


1) you can't do anything about, but 2) is a major issue. If you have cash and motivation, this is a solicitor job, with a view to making a civil claim for damages, or, even presenting a claim to the police.

2) is more important as clearly his business relies totally on using a stolen client list and passing himself off as you. You need to put a stop to that before he does some damage.

NickHKent

232 posts

36 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
Theft of information is a major problem within my industry (head hunting) and all of my employees have clauses in their contracts making them aware of the legal proceedings that will follow.

When I was an employee I was prevented from setting up a business that could be competition for my old firm for 12 months, and I was also restricted from approaching my old team for a similar period.

All the best.
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DS3R

700 posts

36 months

[news] 
Tuesday 15th May 2012 quote quote all
Theft is only a criminal matter if physical articles are stolen.

If the theft is of information, it is a civil matter.

Taking a client list and misusing it puts the other party in a position of risk- it is no surprise the Recruitment industry takes this seriously- see Hays Specialist Recruitment (Holdings) Ltd & another v Ions & another (http://www.veitchpenny.com/employment-updates/employment-update/hays-specialist-recruitment-holdings-ltd-a-another-v-ions-a-anotherchancery-division-16-april-20/menu-id-147.html) which may set several points of precedence for your circumstances, but it would be unwise to assume there is a mirror of that case here or that you have a valid claim against this person.

You need to speak to someone about intellectual property, and quickly- to get an injunction (ie to be able to stop them in short order) you must be fast (ignoring an injunction risks being in contempt of court- which always means jail time- always).

You should go to www.cipa.org.uk and find an IP firm close to you, and speak to them about the facts of your position. They should give you 30- 60 minutes without charge, and a preliminary idea of what to do/ the costs involved. Then you can decide if you want to pursue it.

TurricanII

920 posts

68 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
IANAL but I have seen an Anton Pillar order used: http://www.rossmcbride.com/articles/The-Anton-Pill...

Basically if your legal bod can convince a judge of the merits of your case then you can apply for an order to seize his computers at work and home so as to prevent him from destroying the evidence. Speak to a legal bod about that though

Breadvan72

10,500 posts

33 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
I am a lawyer, and my first suggestion is: do not take commercial legal advice from people who are not lawyers on a motoring website.

Your may have claims for infringement of Database Right, passing off, and misuse of confidential information, but it may now be too late for you to obtain any kind of injunction, as you have inexplicably waited so long before seeking to enforce your rights. You may still have financial remedies available. You would be unlikely to obtain a civil search order after so long a delay, and where the proposed defendant already knows that you are on to him. That is what an Anton Piller Order is called nowadays. It is a rarely granted order, one of the civil laws nuclear weapons, and the costs of obtaining and executing such an order are usually in the high five figure range. Bloke in pub or bloke on website advice about such orders is the last thing that you should heed.

If this may impact on your business, then there is no substitute for taking expert and insured advice from a business law firm. Do no go to the local High Street solicitors. There is no such thing as a good and cheap business lawyer, but you either value your business and are prepared to invest (tax deductible) money in protecting it, or you don't. The civil law assists those who assert their rights promptly and effectively. If you let matters just run on, then your available remedies will be more limited.



Edited by Breadvan72 on Friday 18th May 06:35

Ash 996 GT2

3,384 posts

111 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
He is not hard to find, my advice, to all reading this, why not ask hime for a quote, if we can get 100 quotes, he will have no time to run his stolen business.

johnbear

Original Poster:

1,531 posts

105 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
Thanks for the advice and replies.

I did take advice, local solicitors would not touch the issue but recommended an IP firm in Manchester. Rang and took advice - the upshot was it would cost £3K to build a case and send a warning letter. The solicitor advised this may work, but knowing the individual I thought it would end up in the bin. The next step would be an injunction with an initial forecast cost of £20K. £20K is a large sum to risk against a company and individual with no assets. I was concerned that legal costs would rapidly escalate and I would be forced to consider taking on debt. I could stop him, but I may be left trying to recover debt for years, with him and his wife paying a small monthly sum.

It appears that you can only protect yourself against such individuals if you can afford £30K. Admittedly, it would stop further incidents, but it's very risky against people with no assets as I am throwing good money after bad.

In hindsight, my specialist area was very niche, and we are fighting hard for sales and winning, I can only hope he'll run out of money as he cannot be making a profit. His advice is a £16K network guy desperate for a job with no Adwords experience, strategy or proven approach dressed up as an experienced Adwords expert. If it was networking advice been proved then that maybe a different matter.

It just seems small businesses are really not protected.

My recommendation is to very carefully look at staff. You may not think they could start up, but they suddenly acquire skills and solve problems they found impossible in your employ or engagement.

Kudos

2,107 posts

44 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
Ash 996 GT2 said:
He is not hard to find, my advice, to all reading this, why not ask hime for a quote, if we can get 100 quotes, he will have no time to run his stolen business.
It took all of 3 seconds to find him

johnfm

9,109 posts

120 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
Have you thougt about getting another legal opinion?

I know a couple of commercial solicitors who wouldn't charge £3k to send a cease and desist letter!

There is at least one good commercial lawyer on Pistonheads!

Mojooo

7,415 posts

50 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
Speaking to Trading Standards - if he is misleading these potential businesses then may be comitting offences. If they are alreayd investigating him then I am sure they prob welcome any new offences.

Soir

1,909 posts

109 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
Kudos said:
Ash 996 GT2 said:
He is not hard to find, my advice, to all reading this, why not ask hime for a quote, if we can get 100 quotes, he will have no time to run his stolen business.
It took all of 3 seconds to find him
Mr robinson

johnbear

Original Poster:

1,531 posts

105 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
johnfm said:
Have you thougt about getting another legal opinion?

I know a couple of commercial solicitors who wouldn't charge £3k to send a cease and desist letter!

There is at least one good commercial lawyer on Pistonheads!
Who would you recommend? I'll take another look into this.

johnfm

9,109 posts

120 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
johnbear said:
johnfm said:
Have you thougt about getting another legal opinion?

I know a couple of commercial solicitors who wouldn't charge £3k to send a cease and desist letter!

There is at least one good commercial lawyer on Pistonheads!
Who would you recommend? I'll take another look into this.
Try therealpigdog on PH

If it is outside his practice area, he can no doubt recommend a decent lawyer.

As a guide, I had a lawyer deal with a similar commercial issue. It cost me £300 for his hour and a bit dictating a strongly worded letter. It solved the problem.

Good luck with the scumbag.

bad company

1,897 posts

136 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Breadvan is right. I had a very similar thing happen with an ex employee who left to start his own rival recruitemnt business. We did gen an 'anton piller' and he had to pay us all the money he made from our clients\candidates. He also had to stop using our data and terms of business.

GO TO A GOOD COMMERCIAL SOLICITOR. Then judge

fridaypassion

2,323 posts

98 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Sounds like he will crash and burn way before any expensive legal action will have an effect. Deeply annoying for you.

johnbear

Original Poster:

1,531 posts

105 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
bad company said:
Breadvan is right. I had a very similar thing happen with an ex employee who left to start his own rival recruitemnt business. We did gen an 'anton piller' and he had to pay us all the money he made from our clients\candidates. He also had to stop using our data and terms of business.

GO TO A GOOD COMMERCIAL SOLICITOR. Then judge
What would be a guide price on the anton piller?

LaurasOtherHalf

6,468 posts

66 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
I know someone who may know something about such a case.

Feel free to pm me but I suspect the best answer for you is continued correspondence with your clients, offering them your undived attention & perhaps running a discount if they stay with you. Drive him out of business, it may cost you a little in the short term but by the sounds of him he won't take any notice of what you do or threaten.

As a previous poster has said, be honest with your clients. It sounds like they will have struck up a rapor with you & not the salesman seeing as you did the presentations.
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