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ATV

Original Poster:

265 posts

64 months

[news] 
Friday 25th May 2012 quote quote all
Me and a friend are going to buy a business together where I'm putting in 100% of the £100,000 buying fee as well as a few £thousand to update the premises.

My friend is going to be the sole director and will be running the business day to day and drawing a salary. He is not investing anything into the business (currently he has no means to). I have agreed to be a shareholder but not a director of this business. I will not be drawing a salary but I will be taking a dividend at the end of each financial year.

My input is going to be the financial backing of the firm (obviously) but we've agreed I will also have an input into the medium and long term goals of the business.

We've agreed to go 50/50 on the net business profits but that my initial £100,000 investment should paid back to me as quickly as possible.

My question is: How should I structure the business to make it fair on all parties but protect my financial interests?

Obviously being friends helps, but I've seen too many times when business partnerships go sour and former friends end up having a massive falling out and getting very messy in the courts.

I've thought of a coupe of things:

1) Perhaps I could become a majority shareholder with maybe a 90% - 10% split in favour of me and then having an agreement in place that my shareholding will reduce by say 10% every year until we reach an even 50-50 or that I've been paid back my £100,000 whichever comes sooner.

2) Have a clause in place that says if either party wants to sell his shares, he must offer first refusal to his partner before he can sell them anywhere else. I'm not sure how this works in practice, but it seems

3) Can there be some written contract put in place that specifies who exactly is in charge of the company and who is responsible for the day to day running of it? The main reason why I do not want to be a director is that I have my own businesses (run by me solely) and don't want to risk jeopardising these. The new business is located about 100 miles from where I live so I'll not have a day to day clear focus on what is going on or what actions my new business partner is taking. Therefore I've agreed to be a shareholder only to limit my liability in the event that something goes catastrophically wrong.

Obviously both my friend and I will take separate legal and accountancy advice before we draw up an agreement and sign it, but I'd be grateful for some friendly pointers from any experienced business types on here.

JustinP1

10,271 posts

99 months

[news] 
Friday 25th May 2012 quote quote all
ATV said:
We've agreed to go 50/50 on the net business profits but that my initial £100,000 investment should paid back to me as quickly as possible.
You are very generous. Have you got £100k free for a new business for me!? smile

Seriously though, IMHO that is far too generous. Weigh up the risk. What do you have to lose? £100k plus new investment, plus any trading losses.

What does he have to lose? He walks away and finds a new job. Indeed, from day one he is profiting from a salary. You make nowt unless there is a profit.

If it were me on those kind of terms I would want 100%. It is my substantial wad of cash and my entire risk. He gets a salary. Then, if he really is a mate and you want to mix business with pleasure, after you've got your initial investment back through dividend of profits, then give him 50%.

If you offered that to me in that situation, I'd snap your hand off. Definite salary for me, and if/when I do well I become half owner of a successful business with zero investment from me.

sumo69

856 posts

89 months

[news] 
Friday 25th May 2012 quote quote all
I agree with Justin - your proposal is foolhardy (sorry!).

All your points re relationships between shareholders etc can be drawn up in a Shareholders Agreement.

I would suggest some future targets are agreed between you which trigger bonuses, share issues etc.

If you think that he has to have shares at the start, you should categorise them - perhaps your funding should be for redeemable preference shares or a formal loan note with contractual repayment terms and the 2 of you hold "A" and "B" Ordinary shares which can be set-up with different voting and dividend rights.

Hope that helps but you do need to get advice.

David


DKL

1,835 posts

91 months

[news] 
Saturday 26th May 2012 quote quote all
At the very least his salary should be the bare minimum to live until your investment is repaid. The less he takes the faster this happens and the faster his salary rises.
If you're asking here then it seems likely you don't have 100K to lose or an existing accountant to structure it for you or a way of offsetting this 100K through other businesses should it all go wrong. Sorry that may sound a bit blunt its not meant ot be nor is it meant to belittle your experience but I doubt Richard Branson or Alan Sugar would ask for this sort of advice on a forum!
If you don't "need" the money then he's a very lucky friend but hey that's what friends do.
Hope it works out.

raptor600

1,356 posts

15 months

[news] 
Saturday 26th May 2012 quote quote all
Firstly, forget this person is a friend.

I know plenty of people who have gone in to deals with 'friends' with loose agreements set up and come out totally shafted.

If one thing can stop you being friends it is a business.

Make sure you have control from the outset as you are the one risking your money.
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johnfm

8,999 posts

119 months

[news] 
Saturday 26th May 2012 quote quote all
This sound very strangely one sided - I assume you're dhagging his wife and this is guilt money?

wink

fatvik

255 posts

52 months

[news] 
Saturday 26th May 2012 quote quote all
How about you are both directors so that both signatures are required for any significant changes in the business? So you will always have a say...
If it is possible, you can draw no salary while friend (lets call him Bob - helps me); Bob draws minimum wage.
Shares can be split 50 - 50 as long as you are down as the main creditor (I think I have used the right term here); so if it goes wrong, legally your money will be paid first. That way, there is motivation for the business to do well, keeping in mind that unless a significant portion of the debt is paid, you could veto a dividend.
Good luck.
-FV

rog007

3,039 posts

93 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th May 2012 quote quote all
I'm sure you're getting a sense of the consensus here from feedback so far.

In essence, you're efficiently doing most of the things that perceived business wisdom says you should not. That of course does not make it wrong or guaranteed to fail, it just ramps up the risk.

If however your research and subsequent business plan demonstrates that this venture is a sure fire winner, then you have already mitigated some of that risk. It may be helpful here to confirm if indeed you have done your research and what line of business you are looking at?

Good luck; and this is certainly one worth watching if you get the time to give us occasional updates.

johnfm

8,999 posts

119 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th May 2012 quote quote all
fatvik said:
How about you are both directors so that both signatures are required for any significant changes in the business? So you will always have a say...
If it is possible, you can draw no salary while friend (lets call him Bob - helps me); Bob draws minimum wage.
Shares can be split 50 - 50 as long as you are down as the main creditor (I think I have used the right term here); so if it goes wrong, legally your money will be paid first. That way, there is motivation for the business to do well, keeping in mind that unless a significant portion of the debt is paid, you could veto a dividend.
Good luck.
-FV
Shareholders get very little when a ltd co goes tits up.

Since creditors usually get pennies in the pound, safe to assume shareholders will get nothing.

raptor600

1,356 posts

15 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th May 2012 quote quote all
johnfm said:
Shareholders get very little when a ltd co goes tits up.

Since creditors usually get pennies in the pound, safe to assume shareholders will get nothing.
It is a £100k loan though - so the fact he is a shareholder should not matter.

simer553

483 posts

21 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th May 2012 quote quote all
Get some good legal advice and make sure you get a contract signed up with him.

Also - why don't you either -

Let him take a 'tax efficient' minimum salary and pay the rest to him as divi - this way, the harder he works/more efficiently he runs the business,the more your co. makes, the more he gets paid....

Pay him a % of his salary as shares based on %'age of profit? that way he re-invests into the business (or at least your pocket as the major shareholder) and you therefore protect your investment.

I got bitten very badly by a bloke who was in your position, but wanted me to put up ten grand startup capital (we had a small consultancy) AND do all the work. He basically treated me as his under-ling as he had the most to lose. (he even desribed me as his 'assistant' - fking tt)

Needless to say, I took out my startup as directors loan and we parted company (as it were). Nasty business but it taught me a lot about trust.

Good luck smile

johnfm

8,999 posts

119 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th May 2012 quote quote all
raptor600 said:
johnfm said:
Shareholders get very little when a ltd co goes tits up.

Since creditors usually get pennies in the pound, safe to assume shareholders will get nothing.
It is a £100k loan though - so the fact he is a shareholder should not matter.
The OP says "my £100k investment"

"me and a friend are buying a business" etc.

If it is a loan, it will attract interest and he will want security.

Clearly not a loan as it is described.

He'd be better off if it was a loan!

raptor600

1,356 posts

15 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th May 2012 quote quote all
Sorry - totally missed he was buying a business - thought he was setting one up from scratch. smile

Simon Brooks

929 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
If said friend has a property that has any debt free equity in it, insist he puts it up against your 100k, so that in the event that everything goes south you're not the only one out of pocket.

Tbh sounds like a vey one sided deal, you lump up the cash and he still gets to draw a salary, sounds like someone got the the better deal and it wasn't you

Why does it have to be ltd, why not a partnership where he is jointly liable if it goes belly up ????

Cheib

6,168 posts

44 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
I wouldn't put £100k into a business like this without wanting more control of it....if you aren't willing to be a director why are you putting £100k into it ?!?! I know there are risks to being a director but surely those risks are pretty similar to investing £100k.

With a company myself and two other friends invested in we insisted on getting a directorship to represent our interests and also insisted on certain things like major capex, hiring etc to be signed off unanimously by the board.


Simon Brooks

929 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
I'd also insist on you being responsible for all outgoing payments for at least the first year, seen it too many times where people get the bug of having cash in the bank and can't wait to spend it


wormburner

6,384 posts

122 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
How about you get paid back the same rate he takes in salary:

Then, if he wants to earn the big bucks, the business needs to be successful enough to pay his salary twice - once to him, and once to you in repayments.

Cheib

6,168 posts

44 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
You need to go into this thinking "what happens if things go wrong".

Eric Mc

67,253 posts

134 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
Sonds like a totally lunatic arrangement at the moment.

Simon Brooks

929 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
Having now had a chance to ponder on this for 24 hours and dipped into adding a few comments/observations, the biggest thing that worries me is the total trust you appear to have in your "friend" having the ability to make the venture work, why not agree that he will draw 50% of the NET monthly profit as wages, thereby creating a fairer reflection the risk you have taken personally

To quote Shakespeare's Hamlet. The advice given by Polonius to his son

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend"

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