Alan Sugar, Richard Branson and others

[fridaypassion]

I wonder how many self made millionaires got anywhere by spending 3 days with the family? I would imagine family time is one of the main sacrifices that must be made to fuel proper success.

The other thing with that if you are driven and motivated enough to become a millionaire you are not at any point going to be able to switch that instinct off and drop 4 days off your working week.

In my work I deal with many wealthy individuals and I'm not talking people who just buy a fancy new build and get a Range Rover Evoque on pcp. To me the wealthy people who have the best quality of life are the ones who either have very well paid jobs or have property businesses or other passive income (music/artisic royalties etc) where they have a small staff who look after things and they just do as much or as little as they like.

They are in a minority though. Far more commonly I see people who work 5/6/7 days in their companies, have great businesses but are totally and utterly engrossed and owned by the work. They have a nice house/car etc but no time to enjoy them. They will probably work on well past retirement age because they cant let go.

I think it would be great to be able to pick your time to step away from a business and enjoy the fruits but its not really in the DNA of an entrepreneur is it?

[FrankTing]

As humans we're addicted to high scores. Go back 3000 years and the pharaohs were probably arguing over who would get the biggest pyramid or be buried with the most amount of gold, fast forward 1020 year and there Jesus is boasting about how many people he fed with one stinking fish, hell they wrote a book about that one! Skip forward to present day and kids compete in online games to get the highest set of numbers next to their names. The numbers don't mean anything, of course. But neither does money once you get past a certain point.

I think that after the first £5m or so the actual money becomes takes on a new meaning. It's no longer a way to live, it's a reason to live.

For most people money is a means to an end, for an entrepreneur it's their high score, their pyramid, their fish sharing ability.

No one needs £100m. You do it because you can. You do it to get that higher set of numbers next to your name, not because it affords you the ability to buy more stuff.

Exceptions:People with a yacht habit.

[Talksteer]

GEWAGON said:

No one is knocking their achievements, but things were a lot easer then you could buy a house for 3k, walk out of a job on Monday and get another Tuesday if you had a bit of common sense you could make money. Nowadays there is too much information that every one can get so every market is saturated with amateur entrepreneurs in a lot of cases, so most business run on over-draughts or loans because of this. To be successful you need to be in a cash rich profitable business start small and build up your wealth slowly, or be extra special like inventing Facebook etc.

Today’s high street consist of, payday loans, bookies, pawn shops, food outlets or no win no fee ambulance chasers and the rest is full of companies selling you information on how to be a successful business man or get rich quick schemes.

I reference you hindsight bias: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias

I'm not sure that the ways to become wealthy in the past were any more apparent than they are today. In the 1970's interest rates were much higher, access to information of all types was restricted, lots of industries had restriction on who could enter, seniority ect...

Some people who become multi-millionaires are for want of a better word a bit lucky and happen to be in the right industry at the right time. However there is plenty of evidence for serial entrepreneurs who are successful a number of times and all share reasonably common attributes. Being comfortable with a large amount of personal financial risk and living day to day, working very hard, being able to adapt and drop things and start a new project and most importantly being able to convince others to go along with them or give them money.

Which is all very easy to say in the same way that a fat person who wants to be thin can just eat less.....

The formula as far as I can see it is something along the lines of: Target an industry with good short/medium prospects; care for elderly, free content for the internet, legal highs, motorcycle tours in distant places, telecommunications installation, ground based drones. Either learn said industry by taking a job in it or as an all consuming pass time. Once you have sufficient expertise and contacts you will probably be able to spot a niche in that industry which you can enter using your talent for getting people to work for you and to lend you money. If not move on. Once you have your initial business use this as a means to fund the next one and keep looking for the next opportunity.

I don't think that previously successful Dragons or similar would necessarily being either as successful as they have been or become billionaires but I think you could be fairly certain that they would be successful again. For a start previous evidence of being successful is really good for getting people to follow you, lend you money or even just employ you.

[BigBen]

Muzzer79 said:

mybrainhurts said:

Sugar is expert at stuffing his shareholders. I put £2000 in and he turned it into £200 before I could blink.

As for anything else, tell me one product of his that succeeded.

Seriously?

I am watching TV via an Amstrad manufactured Sky+ box as are most other Sky subscribers.

Loads of people had Amstrad VCRs, HiFi equipment, Word Processors in the 1980s all successful. In fact the e-mail telephone is the only significant failure I can think of.

Sure he has made money from property but from what I can see property he bought as a result of success in his core trading businesses rather than as his principal source of wealth.

Ben

[Manks]

FrankTing said:

As humans we're addicted to high scores. Go back 3000 years and the pharaohs were probably arguing over who would get the biggest pyramid or be buried with the most amount of gold, fast forward 1020 year and there Jesus is boasting about how many people he fed with one stinking fish, hell they wrote a book about that one! Skip forward to present day and kids compete in online games to get the highest set of numbers next to their names. The numbers don't mean anything, of course. But neither does money once you get past a certain point.

I think that after the first £5m or so the actual money becomes takes on a new meaning. It's no longer a way to live, it's a reason to live.

For most people money is a means to an end, for an entrepreneur it's their high score, their pyramid, their fish sharing ability.

No one needs £100m. You do it because you can. You do it to get that higher set of numbers next to your name, not because it affords you the ability to buy more stuff.

Exceptions:People with a yacht habit.

I agree with your views broadly, but I think the point at which money ceases to have meaning is far higher than £5m. If you live in London, £5m would qualify you as "quite well off". To live like a millionaire, you probably need to add a zero to that and you still won't be troubling the Sunday Times Rich List.

[Digga]

Manks said:

I agree with your views broadly, but I think the point at which money ceases to have meaning is far higher than £5m. If you live in London, £5m would qualify you as "quite well off". To live like a millionaire, you probably need to add a zero to that and you still won't be troubling the Sunday Times Rich List.

There was the tragic case in the GFC of the German head of Heidelberg Cement, ADolf Merckle who heaved himself under a train because he'd lost half his wealth on a bad financial position. He was still worth billions and, by all accounts, never actually 'used' the money because he drove a golf and drank in the local bar like any other working joe.

Human nature views loss very differently to gain. So I can see the merit in the argument that once you 'have', say £5m, the money can take over.

Coming back to the OP though, a lot of the big entrepreneurs took very large risks with very large leverage which, IMHO is simply not an option today for entrepreneurs.

[Obiwonkeyblokey]

I think the guys in question would stand a good chance of being succesful again in the current market. Their strengths are in looking for opportunites and going for it. They make cock it up once or tweice but that wont stop them from going again ( although the 10k might run out)

Yes, they had some luck and sailed close to the wind a few times but many people in their situation would also have to have done that. Those are the characteristics which set them apart from your average Joe.

They are not risk averse and they also know how to get the most from the reources available to them, be it money, stock, people etc.

If I was offered a chance to invest 5k of the 10k into their new business start up then I would be "in"

[Mike Random]

As has been said, money makes money and i think they are always looking for the next buisness, as they become more sucsessfull other doors open and ideas come about which leads them down a different road.

Lifestyle comes in to the driver massivly l think as well, they are competetive people and keeping up with the Jones is important to alot of them

Mike

[Manks]

Being ruthless helps a lot.

The people I know who have made a lot of money (8 figures or more) have also engaged in what I would call "legal criminality". They don't actually break the law but relentlessly exploit that which is legal but questionable.

In fact I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

[Digga]

Manks said:

I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

I'm trying and it's not really working.

[Manks]

Digga said:

Manks said:

I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

I'm trying and it's not really working.

Don't waste your time. No one likes you anyway, so you may as well just go for it.

[Digga]

Manks said:

Digga said:

Manks said:

I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

I'm trying and it's not really working.

Don't waste your time. No one likes you anyway, so you may as well just go for it.

Thanks for the coaching.
[unleashesinnerbd]

[SystemParanoia]

Manks said:

Being ruthless helps a lot.

The people I know who have made a lot of money (8 figures or more) have also engaged in what I would call "legal criminality". They don't actually break the law but relentlessly exploit that which is legal but questionable.

In fact I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

things like... ?

[Manks]

SystemParanoia said:

Manks said:

Being ruthless helps a lot.

The people I know who have made a lot of money (8 figures or more) have also engaged in what I would call "legal criminality". They don't actually break the law but relentlessly exploit that which is legal but questionable.

In fact I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

things like... ?

Not going to go into detail here, but basically doing things that aren't illegal, but which you might assume are, or preying upon the naive, stupid or vulnerable.

[Digga]

Manks said:

SystemParanoia said:

Manks said:

Being ruthless helps a lot.

The people I know who have made a lot of money (8 figures or more) have also engaged in what I would call "legal criminality". They don't actually break the law but relentlessly exploit that which is legal but questionable.

In fact I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

things like... ?

Not going to go into detail here, but basically doing things that aren't illegal, but which you might assume are, or preying upon the naive, stupid or vulnerable.

Here's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_van_Hoogstra...

[marky1]

SystemParanoia said:

things like... ?

As an example I would imagine something along the lines of lending money at 5000% APR.

[Manks]

Digga said:

Manks said:

SystemParanoia said:

Manks said:

Being ruthless helps a lot.

The people I know who have made a lot of money (8 figures or more) have also engaged in what I would call "legal criminality". They don't actually break the law but relentlessly exploit that which is legal but questionable.

In fact I seriously question whether it is possible to make a fortune from scratch whilst at the same time being law-abiding, moral and pleasant.

things like... ?

Not going to go into detail here, but basically doing things that aren't illegal, but which you might assume are, or preying upon the naive, stupid or vulnerable.

Here's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_van_Hoogstra...

I don't know "Nick" but yes I know a couple of people who do similar things. FWIW though I suspect he is better to deal with than some other people I know. At least he seems fairly up front about what you're getting.

I have also done business with an outfit of doorstep lenders, who charge ridiculous rates of interest. Some of the nicest people I have ever dealt with actually. Another chap I know has just been barred from being a director of a company for a few years, due to a well-known mobile phone racket and another jailed for defrauding the public purse. Nice blokes to deal with, generous of their time and never did me any harm.

In fact there seems sometimes to be an inverse relationship between business morals and respectfulness, i.e. some of the biggest sharks I've known have had the best manners and have generally been very pleasant to be with. It is almost certainly the case that some of our top entrepreneurs were no angels in their younger days but they just didn't get caught.

[Digga]

Manks said:

In fact there seems sometimes to be an inverse relationship between business morals and respectfulness, i.e. some of the biggest sharks I've known have had the best manners and have generally been very pleasant to be with.

We had a tangle with a firm a few years back - I mean a really nasty legal battle.

Face to face, they would never say boo to a goose and gave the appearance of blue-chip respectability. Which is why we never even thought to check their previous directorships... Suffice to say, lesson learned.

[GEWAGON]

Manks said:

I don't know "Nick" but yes I know a couple of people who do similar things. FWIW though I suspect he is better to deal with than some other people I know. At least he seems fairly up front about what you're getting.

I have also done business with an outfit of doorstep lenders, who charge ridiculous rates of interest. Some of the nicest people I have ever dealt with actually. Another chap I know has just been barred from being a director of a company for a few years, due to a well-known mobile phone racket and another jailed for defrauding the public purse. Nice blokes to deal with, generous of their time and never did me any harm.

In fact there seems sometimes to be an inverse relationship between business morals and respectfulness, i.e. some of the biggest sharks I've known have had the best manners and have generally been very pleasant to be with. It is almost certainly the case that some of our top entrepreneurs were no angels in their younger days but they just didn't get caught.

I have noticed that a few wealthy business men I have met are like confidence tricksters, very cleaver in getting people on board to invest in there ideas brilliant at captivating an audience (Pied piper) fantastic at swerving problems, and if the st hit the fans ...oh that’s business next !!!
It takes a shrewd streetwise person to avoid been taken in. Which they avoid, they home in on dreamers who think that someone will knock on there door and make them rich. And the other scammers Examples:- land bank scam, Boiler rooms scams , buy diamonds, then the Nigerian offering to give you £1.5m for you bank details dob address password ect ect. Problem is greed, and the free lunch mentality.

[Tuna]

I think there's a difference between the guys who make a rather fraudulent buck in the short term, and entrepreneurs who build hugely successful long term businesses. Admittedly the difference is thin in places, but very few people can both run a business and dodge investigators and customers they've conned for long.

The richest guy I know (top 20 UK rich list) made his money by delivering on time, on budget and to spec when very few others in the industry could manage it. No fraud, no illegal practises, just good business. That doesn't mean he hasn't had interesting times, a few enemies and had to play hardball, but the money came from being better than the competition over a period of years.