Can they do this, is it legal.
Discussion
Help needed please.
I'll try and type this story as short as possible, but I'm so angry, need some help here folks, or else I may lose it on Monday am when everybody open for business.
My company refurbishes alloy wheels, dealer we have done work for almost 10 yrs rings us last Feb, brand new car, customer wants them painting gloss black before delivery. Vehicle is collected by customer 2 days later, driven 15 miles back to his house, then to North Wales (we are in essex), drives around north wales for a week, then back to Essex, almost home the driver notices a strange noise, pulls over, calls AA, turns out one of the wheels is lose, AA tightens nuts and guy drives home, rings dealership, they recover car.
Now I'm not going to get into a row about if it was our fault regarding the wheel, its never happened in 12 yrs of business, but that does not mean it cant happen, its why I pay 7k a yr insurance, but I have my doubts as he had driven almost 800 miles.
Anyway, sales manager calls me, going spare, says they have had to put a new wheel, new tyre, new hub, new caliper and pads, 2 free services,a valet and the customer wants £5000 to not go to watchdog. I said I wasn't happy about any of this, not being given the chance to look at things, told him I would pass it all over to my insurance company, in the mean time we went in and painted the "new" alloy black, and didn't invoice them for the original job.
Gave all the details to the insurance company and left it to them.
Skip forward to July time, insurance company ring me to say they have called and written to the dealership/sales manager in question, yet heard nothing back, so they would be closing the file, around this time the sales manager had left and gone to another dealership within the same group, I had given them his new contact details as well.
Skip forward to early Sept, I get a angry call from the head of business at dealer, saying I owe them £3000 (the customer it seems settled for a £1000 to keep quiet), I told the head of business the story about my insurance company hearing nothing, he gave me his contact details, I passed them on, they said they get in touch.
Early Nov, insurance company ring me, guess what, they have heard nothing back from head of business, despite repeated attempts to contact him.
And now we get to now, the dealership in question owed me £4764 for the last 2 months invoices, I have just opened there " bac's remittance advice" and they have taken off £3000 for "wheel damage", no invoice, no breakdown of costs, Christ, they never even told me they were doing it.
Is this even legal, can they do that, after being taken for £4200 by a dealer (liquidation) last Monday it really is turning into the week from hell, and one that is pushing my company very very close to the edge.
I feel like I am stuck, if I kick off I will lose the customer, and they are a good one at that, but can't afford the 3 k hit to my turnover,
Any advice welcome, thanks folks.
I'll try and type this story as short as possible, but I'm so angry, need some help here folks, or else I may lose it on Monday am when everybody open for business.
My company refurbishes alloy wheels, dealer we have done work for almost 10 yrs rings us last Feb, brand new car, customer wants them painting gloss black before delivery. Vehicle is collected by customer 2 days later, driven 15 miles back to his house, then to North Wales (we are in essex), drives around north wales for a week, then back to Essex, almost home the driver notices a strange noise, pulls over, calls AA, turns out one of the wheels is lose, AA tightens nuts and guy drives home, rings dealership, they recover car.
Now I'm not going to get into a row about if it was our fault regarding the wheel, its never happened in 12 yrs of business, but that does not mean it cant happen, its why I pay 7k a yr insurance, but I have my doubts as he had driven almost 800 miles.
Anyway, sales manager calls me, going spare, says they have had to put a new wheel, new tyre, new hub, new caliper and pads, 2 free services,a valet and the customer wants £5000 to not go to watchdog. I said I wasn't happy about any of this, not being given the chance to look at things, told him I would pass it all over to my insurance company, in the mean time we went in and painted the "new" alloy black, and didn't invoice them for the original job.
Gave all the details to the insurance company and left it to them.
Skip forward to July time, insurance company ring me to say they have called and written to the dealership/sales manager in question, yet heard nothing back, so they would be closing the file, around this time the sales manager had left and gone to another dealership within the same group, I had given them his new contact details as well.
Skip forward to early Sept, I get a angry call from the head of business at dealer, saying I owe them £3000 (the customer it seems settled for a £1000 to keep quiet), I told the head of business the story about my insurance company hearing nothing, he gave me his contact details, I passed them on, they said they get in touch.
Early Nov, insurance company ring me, guess what, they have heard nothing back from head of business, despite repeated attempts to contact him.
And now we get to now, the dealership in question owed me £4764 for the last 2 months invoices, I have just opened there " bac's remittance advice" and they have taken off £3000 for "wheel damage", no invoice, no breakdown of costs, Christ, they never even told me they were doing it.
Is this even legal, can they do that, after being taken for £4200 by a dealer (liquidation) last Monday it really is turning into the week from hell, and one that is pushing my company very very close to the edge.
I feel like I am stuck, if I kick off I will lose the customer, and they are a good one at that, but can't afford the 3 k hit to my turnover,
Any advice welcome, thanks folks.
Messy, but my take on it is this.
1) You should have been given the opportunity to rectify the problem. As we have met before, they can't just take it to a third party (who let's face it will take the oportunity to fill their boots) and get them to send you the bill. The fact that the dealer rolled over and gave the customer the crown jewels was his decision; I see no reason why you should have to pay for his generosity to the customer.
2) Your invoices to the dealership are valid. Their deduction of £3,000 is not. In short they have made up a number and used it to help themselves to a massive and unagreed discount.
The easy option would be to write it off, walk away and never deal with them again (or at least until all the personnel have changed). If you add up the actual cost of labour, paint etc it's not as hig as the bills (obviously).
The hard option would be to sue for the outstanding sum and hope their 'case' for the £3,000 falls apart - because it's not a valid debt. It seems they are a bit flaky on admin, which could help you.
Or will your insurance cover it? - but then I suppose they will hit your with higher premiums.
It is very easy to let these things take over your life - been there myself - but you have to remember that it is only money, and that life goes on, and a
holes will aways be aholes. You may be better off channeling your energies into getting new work from fresh sources rather than scrapping. It's up to you, and I wish you good luck.
NB Have you stopped to think that they might need you more than you need them? If you refuse to deal with them again, can they simply move to another outfit with the same quality, price and turnround? Maybe you have more clout than you think?
1) You should have been given the opportunity to rectify the problem. As we have met before, they can't just take it to a third party (who let's face it will take the oportunity to fill their boots) and get them to send you the bill. The fact that the dealer rolled over and gave the customer the crown jewels was his decision; I see no reason why you should have to pay for his generosity to the customer.
2) Your invoices to the dealership are valid. Their deduction of £3,000 is not. In short they have made up a number and used it to help themselves to a massive and unagreed discount.
The easy option would be to write it off, walk away and never deal with them again (or at least until all the personnel have changed). If you add up the actual cost of labour, paint etc it's not as hig as the bills (obviously).
The hard option would be to sue for the outstanding sum and hope their 'case' for the £3,000 falls apart - because it's not a valid debt. It seems they are a bit flaky on admin, which could help you.
Or will your insurance cover it? - but then I suppose they will hit your with higher premiums.
It is very easy to let these things take over your life - been there myself - but you have to remember that it is only money, and that life goes on, and a
holes will aways be aholes. You may be better off channeling your energies into getting new work from fresh sources rather than scrapping. It's up to you, and I wish you good luck.NB Have you stopped to think that they might need you more than you need them? If you refuse to deal with them again, can they simply move to another outfit with the same quality, price and turnround? Maybe you have more clout than you think?
Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 1st December 10:42
Thanks Mr Simpo, spot on advice as always, I've calmed down a bit now and understand everything you say.
There are plenty of companies out there doing what we do, and cheaper, though not as good quality, work is becoming harder and harder to find.The dealers don't seem to want a good job anymore, all they want is cheap cheap cheap, does not matter if it looks crap, just cheap.
An example, at the very dealer mentioned in the OP, they called me a few weeks ago, said they had a customer whose alloys we had painted black 15 months ago, they were all flaking, what was our warranty , I said 12 months but as they were a good customer we could do something for them, besides, I was keen to see why 5 of our refurbs were flaking.
Car was booked in for 8.30 am on Weds, we were there ready and waiting, car arrived at 11.30 am, within seconds we could see WE HAD NOT CARRIED OUT THE WORK, it was shocking, wheel weights painted over, no primer, sanding marks, they were shocking. Turns out the afore mentioned sales manager had "tried" a new company as they were £10 cheaper per alloy than us, wonder why.
It was by now 1.30 pm and I was keen to at least cover my costs for my lad for the day so said I would do all 5, for the price of 4, and not charge to do the backs, something the other company had not done at all. Took them an hr to make the decision to NOT have them done, as neither sales or service wanted to pay for them. So we had sat there for almost 6 hrs for nothing, yet not once did we get a "sorry to have wasted your time" or " thanks for trying to do us a deal".
Tossers, though I am beginning to see that I am far too soft in business, a soft pushover who is always keen to keep the customer happy for fear of losing them.
There are plenty of companies out there doing what we do, and cheaper, though not as good quality, work is becoming harder and harder to find.The dealers don't seem to want a good job anymore, all they want is cheap cheap cheap, does not matter if it looks crap, just cheap.
An example, at the very dealer mentioned in the OP, they called me a few weeks ago, said they had a customer whose alloys we had painted black 15 months ago, they were all flaking, what was our warranty , I said 12 months but as they were a good customer we could do something for them, besides, I was keen to see why 5 of our refurbs were flaking.
Car was booked in for 8.30 am on Weds, we were there ready and waiting, car arrived at 11.30 am, within seconds we could see WE HAD NOT CARRIED OUT THE WORK, it was shocking, wheel weights painted over, no primer, sanding marks, they were shocking. Turns out the afore mentioned sales manager had "tried" a new company as they were £10 cheaper per alloy than us, wonder why.
It was by now 1.30 pm and I was keen to at least cover my costs for my lad for the day so said I would do all 5, for the price of 4, and not charge to do the backs, something the other company had not done at all. Took them an hr to make the decision to NOT have them done, as neither sales or service wanted to pay for them. So we had sat there for almost 6 hrs for nothing, yet not once did we get a "sorry to have wasted your time" or " thanks for trying to do us a deal".
Tossers, though I am beginning to see that I am far too soft in business, a soft pushover who is always keen to keep the customer happy for fear of losing them.
If you do decide to go legal then as well as the 'Who's right?' issue it also depends on the size of the fight in the dog.
We all like to keep our customers happy and go the extra mile but if they are unpleasant/greedy they will exploit it. We live in a society where it pays to complain.
A few decades ago if the customer had noticed his wheel nut was lose he would simply have tightened it up and carried on. Now look at the ststorms that happen.
Quattromaster said:
Car was booked in for 8.30 am on Weds, we were there ready and waiting, car arrived at 11.30 am... we had sat there for almost 6 hrs for nothing, yet not once did we get a "sorry to have wasted your time" or " thanks for trying to do us a deal".
If you have decided not to work for them again then you can play games with him. Send them a bill for two men for a day. £500 should do it. When he rings up ranting you can laugh and tell him to stick his head up a dead bear's bum. You could also send details of the case to the manufacturer's head office and say 'This service manager is an arse; it would be in your interests to remove him'. He is after all only an employee.We all like to keep our customers happy and go the extra mile but if they are unpleasant/greedy they will exploit it. We live in a society where it pays to complain.
A few decades ago if the customer had noticed his wheel nut was lose he would simply have tightened it up and carried on. Now look at the s
tstorms that happen.Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 1st December 12:33
I wouldn't even call them. They're in default on an invoice, just lodge a claim and put the time and effort you'dbe wasting arguing with them to better use finding a replacement customer.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
7 day letter prior to issue of winding up proceedings. A solicitor will sent it for a couple of hundred quid, however you may have to give solicitor another 1k 'on account' should the winding up notice need to be served (which in 99% of cases it won't.
You'll get solicitors fees back & also any interest on the debt.
Simples.
Don't waste your time with phone calls, etc, as clearly they are just messing you around.
You'll get solicitors fees back & also any interest on the debt.
Simples.
Don't waste your time with phone calls, etc, as clearly they are just messing you around.
Quattromaster said:
I feel like I am stuck, if I kick off I will lose the customer, and they are a good one at that, but can't afford the 3 k hit to my turnover,
What is the least painful thing to lose - the £3k or their continued custom?Legal action or 'kicking off' will probably get you the £3k back however would it be worth it should you lose them as a customer.
longshot said:
This may be a silly question but how can painting a wheel make is come loose?
Was their complaint that there was paint on the nut hole tapers or on the back face or what?
Did the dealer refit the wheels?
Not silly at all, do my best to answer.Was their complaint that there was paint on the nut hole tapers or on the back face or what?
Did the dealer refit the wheels?
When we refurb the alloys we remove the complete alloy from vehicle, some companies don't, we do.
Once finished we refit the alloy, and torque nuts to manufacturers spec, we clean any over spray from "nut seating area" using a rose tool.
What this dealer is saying is that we did not tighten the wheel nuts, as I said in OP, although never happened before in over 12 yrs of business there is always a chance it could happen, my lads work through a procedure list when doing the job, and this, in theory prevents it happening.
The vehicle did have a new car PDI inspection in the 2 days between us doing wheels, and customer taking delivery, the dealer say this inspection does not include removing the alloys, so saying we were the last to touch them.
It's really is their word against ours, hence why I got my insurance company involved, for them to sort out.
Whatever the outcome, I'm gonna end up either £3000 down, or lose a high turnover customer.
I'm pretty sure I will get my money, be it from the insurance company, or by taking dealer to court. However this may take months, and we are heading into the toughest 3 months of the yr, plus of course all the costs that come with Christmas .
Add this to the £4200 I was taken for on Monday and it's been a tough week.
Thanks for pointers folks, whatever the outcome I think it's time to knock this dealer on the head and move forward.
Add this to the £4200 I was taken for on Monday and it's been a tough week.
Thanks for pointers folks, whatever the outcome I think it's time to knock this dealer on the head and move forward.
Quattromaster said:
joewilliams said:
Isn't it standard advice to retorque wheel nuts after a few hundred miles? It seems to be written on every tyre fitters invoice; is it on yours?
Yes, it is.What marque of car are we talking about here?
Is there anything mentioned in any of their owner's handbooks?
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