Can they do this, is it legal.

[Terminator X]

One of my clients was 80% of turnover, saw the risk so attempted to reduce it. Got it down to 50%. From out of nowhere they stopped using me despite no bad feedback (long story). Attempted to set up meetings etc to resolve but no joy. Tough few months but slack now picked up and I don't miss them. Keeping powder dry for a loss of profit claim one day.

TX.

[mike9009]

the_g_ster said:

Good advice offered so far.

Make sure you add into any contracts/po's etc etc that it's the customers responsibility to check nuts after manufacturers x miles etc etc.

If you do a lot with one customer, get a contract, include payment terms, credit limit, and something for no right of set off for any disputes, such as this. (I am not in any way saying they have right of set off, but this vexatious claim is causing your withhold)

Enjoy sorting out getting your money back, I am sure you will get it back in time, and with interest.

This is good advice. As much as Ts and Cs bore me, this case is a classic where they could really help. A standard A4 sheet which could be put on the back of invoices/ quotes could limit your liability (upto the value of the work completed, for example), payment terms, warranty given, length of time, aftercare, checks to be completed by dealerships etc.

I suspect most businesses would not contest your T and Cs, or even read them! But it could save you some bother in the future for a little time invested. It might even have a bearing on your insurance premium??

Mike

[Simpo Two]

ridds said:

Wait till it goes to court then present your PDI information stating that it should have been checked and that you advise the nuts are checked after X miles.

The only rather tedious issue with Small Claims is that you have to send ALL information/evidence to the defendant before the case. You can't produce anything unknown in the hearing as it's deemed not fair and it could get the case adjourned or dismissed. Hence there is no TV drama Columbo stuff to play.

The plus side is that if the defendant is intelligent he will see he is tucked up when he gets the paperwork and will fail to appear, and you win by default.

[longshot]

If the document the OP has found was being used at the time the car was sold it will never go near court. (Well, you'd hope so anyway.)

[ridds]

Simpo Two said:

ridds said:

Wait till it goes to court then present your PDI information stating that it should have been checked and that you advise the nuts are checked after X miles.

The only rather tedious issue with Small Claims is that you have to send ALL information/evidence to the defendant before the case. You can't produce anything unknown in the hearing as it's deemed not fair and it could get the case adjourned or dismissed. Hence there is no TV drama Columbo stuff to play.

The plus side is that if the defendant is intelligent he will see he is tucked up when he gets the paperwork and will fail to appear, and you win by default.

Sorry, probably phrased that wrong, didn't mean to hide it just you would hope that any court who sees that it is listed on the PDI sheet that they claim they have performed would award in the claimants favour.

I think most times they back don before it gets that far.

[Mr Overheads]

Quattromaster said:

the driver notices a strange noise, pulls over, calls AA, turns out one of the wheels is lose, AA tightens nuts and guy drives home, rings dealership, they recover car.

Anyway, sales manager calls me, going spare, says they have had to put a new wheel, new tyre, new hub, new caliper and pads, 2 free services,a valet and the customer wants £5000 to not go to watchdog. saying I owe them £3000 (the customer it seems settled for a £1000 to keep quiet)

Sorry for my ignorance, but why does a loose wheel nut that the AA has successfully tightened and the car then safely driven home need new wheel, tyre, hub, caliper, pads, 2 free services , a valet AND £5,000?

[Quattromaster]

Mr Overheads said:

Sorry for my ignorance, but why does a loose wheel nut that the AA has successfully tightened and the car then safely driven home need new wheel, tyre, hub, caliper, pads, 2 free services , a valet AND £5,000?

Today's claim culture i guess, the customers brother or neighbour, can't remember which, was a solicitor and was offering all sorts of helpful advice.

To start with he wanted to reject the whole car for a new one, saying the "loose wheel nuts" would affect the resale value of the vehicle.

[Simpo Two]

Sounds like the customer is as much of a bully as the dealer, and you just happen to be at the end of the line. But from what is being thought over in this thread, it seems you may now have all the cards. You can decide when and how to play them, and that actually makes you powerful and Mr Bully rather impotent...

[Petrolhead_Rich]

Quattromaster said:

Help needed please.

I'll try and type this story as short as possible, but I'm so angry, need some help here folks, or else I may lose it on Monday am when everybody open for business.

My company refurbishes alloy wheels, dealer we have done work for almost 10 yrs rings us last Feb, brand new car, customer wants them painting gloss black before delivery. Vehicle is collected by customer 2 days later, driven 15 miles back to his house, then to North Wales (we are in essex), drives around north wales for a week, then back to Essex, almost home the driver notices a strange noise, pulls over, calls AA, turns out one of the wheels is lose, AA tightens nuts and guy drives home, rings dealership, they recover car.

Now I'm not going to get into a row about if it was our fault regarding the wheel, its never happened in 12 yrs of business, but that does not mean it cant happen, its why I pay 7k a yr insurance, but I have my doubts as he had driven almost 800 miles.

Anyway, sales manager calls me, going spare, says they have had to put a new wheel, new tyre, new hub, new caliper and pads, 2 free services,a valet and the customer wants £5000 to not go to watchdog. I said I wasn't happy about any of this, not being given the chance to look at things, told him I would pass it all over to my insurance company, in the mean time we went in and painted the "new" alloy black, and didn't invoice them for the original job.

Gave all the details to the insurance company and left it to them.

Skip forward to July time, insurance company ring me to say they have called and written to the dealership/sales manager in question, yet heard nothing back, so they would be closing the file, around this time the sales manager had left and gone to another dealership within the same group, I had given them his new contact details as well.

Skip forward to early Sept, I get a angry call from the head of business at dealer, saying I owe them £3000 (the customer it seems settled for a £1000 to keep quiet), I told the head of business the story about my insurance company hearing nothing, he gave me his contact details, I passed them on, they said they get in touch.

Early Nov, insurance company ring me, guess what, they have heard nothing back from head of business, despite repeated attempts to contact him.

And now we get to now, the dealership in question owed me £4764 for the last 2 months invoices, I have just opened there " bac's remittance advice" and they have taken off £3000 for "wheel damage", no invoice, no breakdown of costs, Christ, they never even told me they were doing it.

Is this even legal, can they do that, after being taken for £4200 by a dealer (liquidation) last Monday it really is turning into the week from hell, and one that is pushing my company very very close to the edge.

I feel like I am stuck, if I kick off I will lose the customer, and they are a good one at that, but can't afford the 3 k hit to my turnover,

Any advice welcome, thanks folks.

Nothing to add other than WOW at the dealership, few years ago I had a Vectra (brand new), they did some work and left the subframe and suspension arm bolts loose (not even finger tight), I got their service manager to check every bolt, then left, no £5000 compensation claim, WTF is wrong with people?!?!?

OP - just keep invoicing for the £3k they owe you, threaten with legal action, surely they will pay up?

That said they might be struggling for cash themselves??

[markcoznottz]

There are far too many dodgy s in the motor trade nowadays, the number of contractors I know who have recently been turned over like you I could write a list. It's endemic and is a recent development probably because there are people in the trade who just can't accept that they aren't being kept in the style in which they were accustomed too before the crash. There are honest individuals as well, I have to stress that.

The price given for the work I would bet there is a bung for the business manager/ dealer principal, at your expense. I would suspect the watchdog stuff either wasn't said or was heat of the moment customer annoyed stuff. Most customers wouldn't try to extort a main dealer. No way would the dealership pay hush money. What's more likely is they have done the rectification work, and sweetened with free servicing and valets etc. YOU have payed for this.

You need an itemised bill for the work undertaken, but that doesn't exist, as I said you have paid for this by having your invoice chopped, plus a drink for them. It's called having your arse slapped.If you can find out where he lives etc I would go round the customers house take him a bottle, take a torch, check if the car has a new hub, caliper etc. The lack of contact with your insurance company speaks volumes frankly, ....chancers.

[joewilliams]

coyft said:

I think the dealer probably has a claim against you for repairing the damage caused by the wheel being lose, after all it does seem that the damage was caused by a lose wheel nut. The correct way for this to be dealt with is for them to issue an invoice to you for the costs of repairing the vehicle.

I think you've missed the bulk of the thread:
1. OP's invoice to the dealership states that nuts should be rechecked & tightened after so many miles.
2. The dealership claims to have carried out a PDI on the vehicle - one of the items on that PDI is checking the wheelnuts.

[ralphrj]

joewilliams said:

coyft said:

I think the dealer probably has a claim against you for repairing the damage caused by the wheel being lose, after all it does seem that the damage was caused by a lose wheel nut. The correct way for this to be dealt with is for them to issue an invoice to you for the costs of repairing the vehicle.

I think you've missed the bulk of the thread:
1. OP's invoice to the dealership states that nuts should be rechecked & tightened after so many miles.
2. The dealership claims to have carried out a PDI on the vehicle - one of the items on that PDI is checking the wheelnuts.

3. The dealership was given more than one opportunity to submit their claim to the OP's insurers but declined to do so.

[sjc]

ralphrj said:

joewilliams said:

coyft said:

I think the dealer probably has a claim against you for repairing the damage caused by the wheel being lose, after all it does seem that the damage was caused by a lose wheel nut. The correct way for this to be dealt with is for them to issue an invoice to you for the costs of repairing the vehicle.

I think you've missed the bulk of the thread:
1. OP's invoice to the dealership states that nuts should be rechecked & tightened after so many miles.
2. The dealership claims to have carried out a PDI on the vehicle - one of the items on that PDI is checking the wheelnuts.

3. The dealership was given more than one opportunity to submit their claim to the OP's insurers but declined to do so.

Op they are having you over. The next time they try and knock you it will be for a whole lot more than 3 grand. Please be very careful.

[ralphrj]

coyft said:

I don't think I'm missing anything. What has the OP's insurance got to do with anything?

The OP's insurance would cover him for any damage caused (if it was proven that the OP was liable).

In order to claim from the OP's insurance the dealership needed to provide proof of the loss.

The dealership failed to do so despite the OP giving them all the information to enable them to do so.


If the dealership can't provide any evidence how do you know that the event ever occurred (let alone if the damage was actually anything to do with the OP)?

[kiethton]

That dealership need to grow a backbone....

When I got my 335i I drove it to Bluewater the next day (at slightly above motorway speeds) as I got to the carpark and turned in there was a very nasty vibration and felt dodgy after taking the roundabout into the carpark, looked down at the NSF wheel (refurbed prior to purchase) and there were only 2 nuts remaining - finger tight....

I called the salesman and he turned up within 30 minutes with a mechanic with the tools to fix it then and a sincere apology....

I viewed that as sufficient, if the wheel had have overtaken me on the M25/A2 I wouldn't have been as relaxed, alas it didn't and life goes on

[anonymous-user]

coyft said:

I don't think I'm missing anything. What has the OP's insurance got to do with anything?

What about the main dealer failing to check the wheel nuts as part of the pdi before handover??

[Chrisgr31]

coyft said:

ralphrj said:

joewilliams said:

coyft said:

I think the dealer probably has a claim against you for repairing the damage caused by the wheel being lose, after all it does seem that the damage was caused by a lose wheel nut. The correct way for this to be dealt with is for them to issue an invoice to you for the costs of repairing the vehicle.

I think you've missed the bulk of the thread:
1. OP's invoice to the dealership states that nuts should be rechecked & tightened after so many miles.
2. The dealership claims to have carried out a PDI on the vehicle - one of the items on that PDI is checking the wheelnuts.

3. The dealership was given more than one opportunity to submit their claim to the OP's insurers but declined to do so.

I don't think I'm missing anything. What has the OP's insurance got to do with anything?

Because they are dealing with te claim against the OP, and therefore acting as his agent in this matter. They will not pay out if he settles without their consent.

[JM]

coyft said:

I think the dealer probably has a claim against you for repairing the damage caused by the wheel being lose, after all it does seem that the damage was caused by a lose wheel nut.

I've had a loose wheel due to slackening wheel nuts before. It never did any damage to either the wheel, the tyre, the brake caliper or the brake pads.


I noticed the noise from the wheel and at first wondered what it was, then it got worse, so I pulled over and a quick check showed that two nuts were loose on one front wheel and one was loose on the other front wheel, both rears were ok. I had new tyres fitted the day before and didn't check the nuts myself before starting the journey I was on. But that car did have a habit of the nuts not tightening properly.

[Muzzer79]

Wow. I'm stunned that some firms are so underhand in business.

OP - this dealership knows you're a pushover and is essentially bullying you into covering £3k that was their own cock-up.

They think that their business is too important to you not to play ball, so are flexing their muscles to get you to pay.

If you stand for it, it will happen again, and again.

Personally, I would contact either the DP or the business manager, then get in the car and drive down there. Politely inform them on arrival that you will be seen that day to discuss the issue or be paid in full there and then. One or the other.

Be friendly, be professional. There's no need to get aggressive. Just politely present the facts (PDI report, etc) and ask to be paid what you're owed.

One suspects that you're right about either losing £3k or losing this customer. Personally, I'd go for the latter and use your energy to find another customer who respects the good work that you do.

[ralphrj]

coyft said:

It's of no concern to the dealer whether the OP's insurance pays out or not.

I'm at a loss as to where you are going with this.

The dealer can issue a claim against the OP if they want. The OP can ask his insurers to handle the claim. The insurers will assess the evidence provided by the dealer and if the OP is liable they will pay the claim. However, if the OP is not liable then the insurers won't pay.

In this case the dealer has done nothing to back up their claim that any damage was done let alone that the damage occurred as a result of the OP's negligence.

If the dealer isn't happy that the insurer won't pay they can sue the OP but the OP's insurers will take on the case. However, if the insurer felt that the dealer had a case they would have settled in the first place.

So it is a concern to the dealer if the insurance won't pay - it means they don't have a good case.