Will I need to get a CPC license?

[BrabusMog]

We run a fleet of LWB Transit vans but are thinking about getting a 7.5t lorry in order to make some of our delivery routes more efficient. Will I (as the fleet manager) need to obtain a CPC in order to have one in the fleet? Just for clarification purposes I won't actually be driving it. All my Google searches just seem to throw up companies offering the training for the test, I'd just like to know if I need it!

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[Justin Cyder]

The short answer is yes. More pertinently, you will need an operators licence & that is a whole other barrel of fish. Even more pertinently, you will have to adhere like glue to the terms & conditions of the licence or it will be revoked or curtailed by the Traffic commissioner & your company name splashed all over the trade press & local paper. The long answer is here:

http://www.fta.co.uk/export/sites/fta/_galleries/d...

[BrabusMog]

Thanks, Justin - I think operators license is what I was asked to find out about (8am seems like a long time ago today!!) so I'll have a little read of that link later. We're very good at compliance so I'd imagine it's something I'd be able to get on top of and maintain.

[Justin Cyder]

IIRC You can subcontract your CPC compliance to an external holder, but whoever does it must be of good repute which has a specific meaning in transport & they cannot have more than four CPC operations under their control. TC's are really hot on stuff like that. In fact just don't ever try to hoodwink a traffic commissioner - they've seen it all before.

[BrabusMog]

What does "of good repute" mean? I've got 6 points on my personal license, is that likely to count against me? Nobody else within our business is prepared to get the operators license, I think I'm starting to understand why now!

[Justin Cyder]

Lol! No.

Good repute is quite wide ranging but essentially, any TC considering a licence application will want to see that the nominated transport manager does not have convictions relating to previous operations with goods vehicles, so hours offences, interfering with Tachographs, overloading, maintenance etc. However, the TC can include wider considerations such as whether the nominated person has had financial problems, drugs or violence convictions and so on, but I think your points won't count against you, but do slow down.

Kidding apart, it is a serious responsibility. If you become the nominated transport manager on the O Licence & one of your vehicles has a brake failure & mows down a sweet old granny, you could find yourself in serious trouble. It shouldn't be undertaken lightly.

[Super Slo Mo]

BrabusMog said:

What does "of good repute" mean? I've got 6 points on my personal license, is that likely to count against me? Nobody else within our business is prepared to get the operators license, I think I'm starting to understand why now!

You seem to be confusing the Operator's Licence, which is something the company has to get, and the CPC (Certificate of Professional Competence), which is something the nominated transport manager/person responsible has to get.

Your directors are also legally responsible in the event of any failings within the provision of the O'Licence, with sentences ranging from big fines to jail sentences. However, don't let that put you off, it's involved, but not that difficult to be compliant. You just have to be diligent and not let people cut corners.

[Justin Cyder]

This is true. You can have a CPC without an O licence as it's personal to the holder, but you cannot have an O licence without a CPC holder and be compliant. In fact I'm pretty sure that a TC wouldn't grant an O licence unless a CPC holder of good repute is in place prior to the application being submitted.

[BrabusMog]

Right so if I've understood this correctly; the business applies for the Operators License and then I, as the nominated Transport Manager, apply for the CPC in order for us to be allowed to run the 7.5t vehicle? Compliance, as I said, isn't an issue for me, there is plenty of red tape within what I do and I've always been good at keeping on top of things. It might just mean that my desk chair isn't always spinning at lunchtime in our quieter periods.

[Super Slo Mo]

Justin Cyder said:

This is true. You can have a CPC without an O licence as it's personal to the holder, but you cannot have an O licence without a CPC holder and be compliant. In fact I'm pretty sure that a TC wouldn't grant an O licence unless a CPC holder of good repute is in place prior to the application being submitted.

You can have a period (think it might be 3 months) without a CPC holder in place, but that might be for an existing licence, a new application might be different.

I've never applied for a new O Licence, only renewed, updated and transferred existing ones.

[Justin Cyder]

Good stuff. I'm doing all this from memory, it's been a while & I am aware that proposals are in the works to tighten things up again. Essentially, if an industry has a large amount of regulation applied to it, you can bet your mortgage that historically, it only has itself to blame. Worth thinking about that next time you apply for a mortgage or order a dodgy burger.

[Super Slo Mo]

BrabusMog said:

Right so if I've understood this correctly; the business applies for the Operators License and then I, as the nominated Transport Manager, apply for the CPC in order for us to be allowed to run the 7.5t vehicle? Compliance, as I said, isn't an issue for me, there is plenty of red tape within what I do and I've always been good at keeping on top of things. It might just mean that my desk chair isn't always spinning at lunchtime in our quieter periods.

Yes, doesn't have to be in that order, as JC said.

The CPC is a course and exams that you take. Can either be taught or self-study, depending on how self motivated you are. I'm not very good at self motivation when it comes to education, but I managed it without taking a taught cause, although it was in 1999..... Think the course content might have changed a little since then

[phil-sti]

Quick question

What are you delivering? are they your own (the businesses) goods?

Also how can 1 x 7.5 tonne make things more efficient, you will have a lot of hoops to jump through for the operators licence. financial standing, set up an adequate defect system, tachograph analysis, public announcement for parking up vehicles etc.

I can see a better benefit from having a smaller 7.5 tonne fleet but not just the 1.

[Super Slo Mo]

Actually, yes that's a good point. 7.5 tonners have a payload of around 3 tonnes max, although I suppose that's about 1.5 times a transit's payload. If it's light stuff, then the massively increased volumetric capabilities of a 7.5 tonner will be handy.

[BrabusMog]

One of the drivers is retiring to work in our office and do some of our sanitisation work. We deliver bottled water and sanitise water coolers and, at the moment, drivers do it all. We want to experiment with having a sanitisation only van and a separate, larger delivery vehicle. The sanitising massively slows down delivery routes and we think one 7.5t vehicle would be able to deliver double the amount of water in a day quite easily. This is at a very early stage and I was asked in passing to look into it this morning as it was seen that the operators licence/CPC implications were barriers to doing this sort of thing in the past. I'm aware how naïve this makes me appear, my background was not transport and the joys/curses of a family business mean that the sales role I was brought in to handle is currently on the back burner whilst I explore ways to improve our operational efficiency.

Thanks for all the replies.

Edit - We are looking to trial with one 7.5t vehicle and then, if successful, will continue to roll it out when the transits reach the end of their cycle with us.

[phil-sti]

So BrabusMog

You deliver water coolers for your company to your clients, remove old ones and clean them up but they are owned by your company?

What i'm trying to say your not a transport company i.e brabus transport and you deliver my fountains water coolers?
If the first one you can apply for a national ops licence which means you wont need a designated CPC holder.

[BrabusMog]

That's correct, Phil. Sometimes we do sell the coolers and deliver them but even the empty bottles are effectively leased from us.

[BrabusMog]

Thanks for the advice.

[Justin Cyder]

Phil makes a good point regarding the on cost of maintaining an O licence. You will amongst other things, have to show your financial standing which is on a standard national license, £7,400 for the first vehicle & £4,100 for each additional vehicle. That means that if required by the TC, you will need to prove that those sums are available in the business to satisfy the requirements of running vehicles.

You will have to have defect reporting systems in place, maintenance arrangements & tachograph analysis. You then have to tax & fuel the thing & pay someone to drive it. It adds up, so when doing your sums, it may pay to get quotes for a 3rd party haulier to perform the same job & see how they compare.

[BrabusMog]

Jesus, they don't make it easy, do they? I wouldn't be comfortable with a 3rd party doing multi-drops on our behalf, our relationship with our customers is key and we hire drivers based on how we feel they will interact with our varied customer base. Looks like this may be a non-started but it's one of the many reasons that make this such a great website - I really appreciate the advice guys.