Can a Sandwich Shop Make Decent Money ?
Discussion
Thanks for the input, I am torn between subway copy with bagels not subs (inc platters etc) and a Italian / Jewish deli inspired by Liverpools deliconseca that is doing really well.
Unusually and in certain places a huge Sunday bagel and salmon ritual occurs and it's not just a Jewish thing, my original idea was to just open 3 days a week as a play biz but if your paying for the shop etc may as well use it.
Unusually and in certain places a huge Sunday bagel and salmon ritual occurs and it's not just a Jewish thing, my original idea was to just open 3 days a week as a play biz but if your paying for the shop etc may as well use it.
I really think a sandwich shop need a USP as there are so many places selling them, this place for example, are living on the current pulled pork popularity by cooking up a whole pig every night (you can see it in the window as you walk past) and sticking lumps in fresh rolls for £5 a time. They do a couple of sides included (stuffing / apple sauce / coleslaw etc.) and sausage rolls. The rent must be high as the location is 30 seconds from the cathedral but the food is excellent and they are very popular!
I know that’s not what you’re interested in but I think its simple and genius!
http://www.porkandco.co.uk/
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g18...
I know that’s not what you’re interested in but I think its simple and genius!
http://www.porkandco.co.uk/
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g18...
b0rk said:
I assume you are aware that car park season ticket holders can get onto the platforms without going through the concourse? will reduce commuter traffic somewhat. Anyway for the station/travel market you'll need to focus on speed of service so basically have lot of pre-made sandwiches/subs etc ready to sell.
The trade window will be remarkably small the rent eye-wateringly high if within the station expect to pay a quarterly minimum rent + a percentage of turnover.
The Small car park at the rear they can, But from the main they cant and they have to use the main entrance. The trade window will be remarkably small the rent eye-wateringly high if within the station expect to pay a quarterly minimum rent + a percentage of turnover.
Rent will be a problem but as they have been empty for around a year it might be worth asking for some information. out of 5 units I think only 1 is occupied which is a tailor's.
This is a pipedream for me as I cant see any other business opportunity around. so really just in the gathering information and man maths stage
The problem is that this topic will tell you that some places have made a success out of this and quite a number have failed. It won't tell you whether your venture will succeed or fail.
I was actually thinking about Pork & Co as I live in Canterbury. You could take that shop and put it in a 100 different locations around the UK and I bet more times than not it would fail. It works because it works for the punters (office workers and tourists - not so much the students) of Canterbury.
So, as ever I'd look at doing this in a Lean Startup way. What experiments can you do to test your business assumptions? It sounds like you have two main assumptions:
1. There is a market that want to eat your fancy type of bagels
2. And that market is willing to pay a price that makes your business viable.
You should be able to test number 1 pretty easily. Make up some bagels, cut them up into taster size, go down to the area where your shop will be and offer them to people (probably a good idea to spend a few tenners to get some uniforms made up with a logo on them so you still look professional).
You'll find by doing this you'll get into conversations with potential customers about what you're doing and why. Don't ask them if they think your business is a good idea. They will say yes just to be polite, or because they fancy something different every once in a while - which doesn't help you work out viability. Do ask what they currently do for their lunches, where they usually buy, do they make their own lunch, do they work/live close by, how much do they spend a week on lunches. Only by finding out factual information about what they are currently doing will you know whether they are a potential customer.
Based on how well experiment 1 goes, if you still think it's a viable business then you can move on to an experiment for assumption 2, price. My advice would be to see if you can get a street cart, or a pop up shop (would the landlord of the place you're looking to get be interested in a short term pop up shop?). Maybe there is a market on certain days close by? Don't invest too much time and energy into anything too permanent. You want to still come across as professional, but be flexible enough to be able to experiment with price every few days, maybe experiment with different products to see what works and what doesn't. After 2-3 weeks of doing this, if you've not found a selection of products that work at certain price points, you never will. Don't forget, the prices you experiment with obviously have to still be viable once you factor in the running costs of a full on, permanent shop.
Do it this way and the risk of failing when you finally put pen to paper on long term financial commitments will be greatly reduced.
I was actually thinking about Pork & Co as I live in Canterbury. You could take that shop and put it in a 100 different locations around the UK and I bet more times than not it would fail. It works because it works for the punters (office workers and tourists - not so much the students) of Canterbury.
So, as ever I'd look at doing this in a Lean Startup way. What experiments can you do to test your business assumptions? It sounds like you have two main assumptions:
1. There is a market that want to eat your fancy type of bagels
2. And that market is willing to pay a price that makes your business viable.
You should be able to test number 1 pretty easily. Make up some bagels, cut them up into taster size, go down to the area where your shop will be and offer them to people (probably a good idea to spend a few tenners to get some uniforms made up with a logo on them so you still look professional).
You'll find by doing this you'll get into conversations with potential customers about what you're doing and why. Don't ask them if they think your business is a good idea. They will say yes just to be polite, or because they fancy something different every once in a while - which doesn't help you work out viability. Do ask what they currently do for their lunches, where they usually buy, do they make their own lunch, do they work/live close by, how much do they spend a week on lunches. Only by finding out factual information about what they are currently doing will you know whether they are a potential customer.
Based on how well experiment 1 goes, if you still think it's a viable business then you can move on to an experiment for assumption 2, price. My advice would be to see if you can get a street cart, or a pop up shop (would the landlord of the place you're looking to get be interested in a short term pop up shop?). Maybe there is a market on certain days close by? Don't invest too much time and energy into anything too permanent. You want to still come across as professional, but be flexible enough to be able to experiment with price every few days, maybe experiment with different products to see what works and what doesn't. After 2-3 weeks of doing this, if you've not found a selection of products that work at certain price points, you never will. Don't forget, the prices you experiment with obviously have to still be viable once you factor in the running costs of a full on, permanent shop.
Do it this way and the risk of failing when you finally put pen to paper on long term financial commitments will be greatly reduced.
jammy_basturd said:
Good advice.
I like the pop up shop idea and the cart - I will have time soon to concentrate on it full time and will update the thread on how it goes.So far:
No Bagel shops / Jewish or Italian Deli within many miles except supermarkets
I have found the supplier of the great bagels and cakes that won the bakery competition and are my favourite
I can afford a shop may rent though
Loads of used fridge counters etc about
Catchment area is huge and deliveries can be arranged as area is compact
Area is wealthy and a bit foody
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Its hard to describe a old school bagel shop that I am used to, its far from fancy and the Golders green ones are far from fancy. I think Jammys idea of a pop up shop is a good one as we can sell just the components for home use or even provide a "making table" so they make their own bagel. (that's got me thinking).Hidden costs are a killer for any business and often not considered until you wonder where the profit is, we don't need a living from this so we have time to get it right and as I intend to own the shop I can switch it to smut or summat else or even let it.
"Will the missus do the hours?" I assume not as she hasn't worked for years but I have real friends who could do shifts and I am "street smart" on leakage etc. She has always wanted a food place and I have to do a Liverpool dash most sundays to buy the bagels so two birds / one stone.
I think it's an interesting idea. A mate of mine tried his hand at a greasy spoon on Derby Road in Bootle and it did ok but he was trying to run it alongside his main business and the hours were killing him. Sold it on & it's still going but I think for that to work, you need to do outside catering too to really make any decent money. He was up at silly o'clock to get th ebread & meats from the butcher on the way in.
A more upmarket product with a USP like you're proposing - in the right area could I think do well. Costs are the crux but you know that. Fascinated that you make a dash into Liverpool for bagels at the weekend - would never think of doing that!
For second hand catering stuff in Liverpool, try Tony at www.dcecommercial.co.uk (tell him Dunc the computer guy sent you) and for waste, give www.martlandskiphire.co.uk/commercial-waste/ a call, they do cover down into Liverpool for some types of work & are a decent bunch.
A more upmarket product with a USP like you're proposing - in the right area could I think do well. Costs are the crux but you know that. Fascinated that you make a dash into Liverpool for bagels at the weekend - would never think of doing that!
For second hand catering stuff in Liverpool, try Tony at www.dcecommercial.co.uk (tell him Dunc the computer guy sent you) and for waste, give www.martlandskiphire.co.uk/commercial-waste/ a call, they do cover down into Liverpool for some types of work & are a decent bunch.
There's a good bagel shop (QC's) in Sheffield City centre. On one side next door is a good panini shop (Grace and Flavour), and the other way is another sandwich shop that does everything. The bagel and panini shops have queues every lunchtime, the sandwich shop less so. Both focus on doing fresh food with a good range of choice for good value. It must work as they've been going for a number of years now, although I have no idea on what margins they make.
jep said:
There's a good bagel shop (QC's) in Sheffield City centre. On one side next door is a good panini shop (Grace and Flavour), and the other way is another sandwich shop that does everything. The bagel and panini shops have queues every lunchtime, the sandwich shop less so. Both focus on doing fresh food with a good range of choice for good value. It must work as they've been going for a number of years now, although I have no idea on what margins they make.
http://uk.businessesforsale.com/uk/Sandwich-And-Bagel-Bar-In-Sheffield-For-Sale.aspx
I think I have sold myself INITIALLY on a pop up shop with a make your own bagel table - needs more thought
Mr Overheads said:
These may or may not be a big seller.....
yes they are actually doughnuts with BLT not Jam inside....
Clearly Morrisons weren't confident, note the 0% satisfaction guarantee.
I imagine they're coming off the back of cronuts, which have been massive in NYC for a while now.yes they are actually doughnuts with BLT not Jam inside....
Clearly Morrisons weren't confident, note the 0% satisfaction guarantee.
The other thing you have to think of, is that maybe the food you're offering is a bit of a fad? Like Pork & Co in Canterbury - their whole brand and product revolves around pulled pork remaining popular. What happens in a years time if Cronuts suddenly take off and everyone over here wants cronuts instead of pulled pork or bagels? Pork & Co have branded around their product and at the moment have been highly successful due to that. It could also be their downfall though as they'll struggle to adapt and reinvent themselves should the market change.
Seems like you could have two choices with brand. Do a Pork & Co and be known as the company for that product, but be open to the dangers of market fads changing - maybe requiring a re-brand further down the line.
Or, the holy grail, create a strong brand image that isn't linked to product, but you still become known as the company for product X, and then product Y when that becomes popular, then product Z, etc.
Pot Bellied Fool said:
Fascinated that you make a dash into Liverpool for bagels at the weekend - would never think of doing that!
.
Real bagels, fresh smoked salmon, cream cheese with salmon, egg n onion and chopped herring (yuk) on a table, friends round coffee on the go, papers - its a nice sunday however now we have the kids we do it less and less. Also sunday morning drive to Liverpool and back when I had a convertible was a great blast - in a 4*4 less so !!.
As far as making a living a butty shop outside the main gates of a large business I used to work at looks to be doing well. They've extended into the shop next door and have a number of vans that go and sell at other sites. The owner looks to be doing well from it, and was driving a nice Aston Martin last time I saw.
With regard for your ideas I don't think a DIY sandwich table would be my cup of tea and I guess is open to people taking advantage and or spoiling the stock.
With regard for your ideas I don't think a DIY sandwich table would be my cup of tea and I guess is open to people taking advantage and or spoiling the stock.
Just thought I'd add to this topic.
Local to where I live there is a butchers down a high street. They started doing carvery baguettes around 10 years ago to boost their business. You can have a baguette in small or large and the fillings you can choose from are roast beef, pork, turkey, chicken, sausages, bacon and you can have stuffing, apple sauce, cranberry, mayonnaise. Basically any combo you like.
They charge £2.50 for a small one and £3.00 for a large. People literally cue out of the door. This despite the fact there is a subway in the shop next door. Its fairly close to a college and all the students walk down there during their lunch hours. I have no idea how many they sell on a busy day but it must be a few hundred, especially on a Saturday which seems to be the busiest day. Put it this way, they have 2 people serving, each I'd estimate can produce a roll in around a minute. That's 120 rolls an hour and they have a good 2 hours each day where people are cueing out of the door.
Might be an idea? People love a carvery, seems even more so when its in a baguette!
Cheers
Local to where I live there is a butchers down a high street. They started doing carvery baguettes around 10 years ago to boost their business. You can have a baguette in small or large and the fillings you can choose from are roast beef, pork, turkey, chicken, sausages, bacon and you can have stuffing, apple sauce, cranberry, mayonnaise. Basically any combo you like.
They charge £2.50 for a small one and £3.00 for a large. People literally cue out of the door. This despite the fact there is a subway in the shop next door. Its fairly close to a college and all the students walk down there during their lunch hours. I have no idea how many they sell on a busy day but it must be a few hundred, especially on a Saturday which seems to be the busiest day. Put it this way, they have 2 people serving, each I'd estimate can produce a roll in around a minute. That's 120 rolls an hour and they have a good 2 hours each day where people are cueing out of the door.
Might be an idea? People love a carvery, seems even more so when its in a baguette!
Cheers
Dogbash said:
Just thought I'd add to this topic.
Local to where I live there is a butchers down a high street. They started doing carvery baguettes around 10 years ago to boost their business. You can have a baguette in small or large and the fillings you can choose from are roast beef, pork, turkey, chicken, sausages, bacon and you can have stuffing, apple sauce, cranberry, mayonnaise. Basically any combo you like.
They charge £2.50 for a small one and £3.00 for a large. People literally cue out of the door. This despite the fact there is a subway in the shop next door. Its fairly close to a college and all the students walk down there during their lunch hours. I have no idea how many they sell on a busy day but it must be a few hundred, especially on a Saturday which seems to be the busiest day. Put it this way, they have 2 people serving, each I'd estimate can produce a roll in around a minute. That's 120 rolls an hour and they have a good 2 hours each day where people are cueing out of the door.
Might be an idea? People love a carvery, seems even more so when its in a baguette!
Cheers
I have that on my work doorstep - the unforgettable http://www.muffsonline.co.uk/ - prize winning Muffs Local to where I live there is a butchers down a high street. They started doing carvery baguettes around 10 years ago to boost their business. You can have a baguette in small or large and the fillings you can choose from are roast beef, pork, turkey, chicken, sausages, bacon and you can have stuffing, apple sauce, cranberry, mayonnaise. Basically any combo you like.
They charge £2.50 for a small one and £3.00 for a large. People literally cue out of the door. This despite the fact there is a subway in the shop next door. Its fairly close to a college and all the students walk down there during their lunch hours. I have no idea how many they sell on a busy day but it must be a few hundred, especially on a Saturday which seems to be the busiest day. Put it this way, they have 2 people serving, each I'd estimate can produce a roll in around a minute. That's 120 rolls an hour and they have a good 2 hours each day where people are cueing out of the door.
Might be an idea? People love a carvery, seems even more so when its in a baguette!
Cheers
all the carvery rolls and stuff - is always busy (looks like hard work)I opened a sandwich shop in basingstoke. I went into it with a lot experience in catering and concluded after three years that it was more trouble than it was worth.
The problems are :-
Low ticket value
Limited window for sales
Very early starts
High food waste
Too labour intensive
Unpredictable sales ie no sales pattern
Pret a manger only works because of the locations and brand awareness. They have their fair share of headaches and not all of them make money. The only way i think you can make money is by doing a subway type operation and staying open all day. The problem is that you will need a good location which costs money and staffing costs.
The problems are :-
Low ticket value
Limited window for sales
Very early starts
High food waste
Too labour intensive
Unpredictable sales ie no sales pattern
Pret a manger only works because of the locations and brand awareness. They have their fair share of headaches and not all of them make money. The only way i think you can make money is by doing a subway type operation and staying open all day. The problem is that you will need a good location which costs money and staffing costs.
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