Criminal Law regards Gross Negligence

[nekrum]

Hi

I can't go into details on an open forum for obvious reasons but I'm after some advice regards criminal law in relation to gross negligence by medical professionals. If anybody is willing to assist or knows somebody I would be very grateful.

NOTE: I do not need advice regards a negligence claim but specific advice on criminal law relating to Gross Negligence Manslaughter.

Thanks

[allergictocheese]

With the greatest of respect, the only worthwhile advice you'll get on the subject will be from someone in possession of the facts who is qualified. You are not able to share the facts here and qualified people don't tend to give worthwhile advice for free, so Pistonheads is probably not the place to ask. Sorry that's not more helpful.

[Sheepshanks]

The OP is asking to be pointed in the right direction - a perfectly reasonable request. Although in the wrong sub-forum.

[Piglet]

You want a clinical negligence solicitor.

Start here and find someone close to you http://www.avma.org.uk/pages/find_a_solicitor-choo...

Edited by Piglet on Monday 22 December 12:11

[Piglet]

You're mixing up your concepts as negligence is by its nature a common law concept. If you believe a crime has been committed, your starting point is the police. Clinical negligence could lead to a criminal conviction, I'd start with a clinical negligence solicitor and see what they say. The standard of proof needed for clin. neg. is usually reasonably high. Adverse outcomes aren't always the result of negligence.

[nekrum]

Thanks for the replys.

For clarification we have just had an inquest in which there is clearly clinical negligence, the Trust have already admitted liability. Our legal people have not had much experience with criminal law and I want to satisfy my own mind as to if we have or have not grounds for a cps referral as the evidence is damming. In sort I'm after a second opinion from somebody who has criminal law experience in relation to gross negligence by medical professionals.

I'm after a referral if anybody knows anybody who may be able to assist, I'm not after advice on forum and I'm happy to pay.

Edited by nekrum on Monday 22 December 19:55

[Chrisgr31]

Can't help with your quest for criminal negligence lawyers but I would ask you to consider whether going legal is the correct way. It will cost a fortune, for both sides, and there might be fines etc and possibly compensation. Obviously dont know what happened and who was affected, but all that money will have to come out of the NHS budget. Therefore leaving less money to care for other patients.

If the Trust have admitted their might be issues it might be better to speak with them and ensure they are spending money to ensure this never happens again, rather than spending it on defending court action.

As I say no knowledge of the circumstances, but we all make mistakes at some point in our lives, and those staff who may have made mistakes will have the consequences of those on their mind for the rest of their lives.

[A common lawyer]

Sometimes, those mistakes are so serious that only prosecution can be an appropriate response from society.

I guess with an inquest going on the police haven't started an investigation or anything. If you have a liaison officer, ask them, ask the local team, or you could speak to a solicitor about a possible private prosecution.

Happy to point you in the vague direction of people, but local is usually best. Whereabouts are you? Feel free to pm me (former prosecutor, zero clin neg experience!)

[Dixy]

At what point will we cease to have a medical profession at all.It should not be possible to sue the NHS.

Edited by Dixy on Friday 26th December 14:58

[nekrum]

Thanks again for the replies..

I don't disagree that the NHS is a national institution that should be protected but, in our case there have been multiple unorthodox errors and many other failings which include not following accepted practice. The Trust also failed to investigate a serious incident which resulted in the death of a new born baby (our son) which, if we didn't push for answers we would have never known the truth. All preventable. I fully accept accidents do and can happen and medical professionals on the whole deserve our up most respect but there has to be a line where they are held accountable for their actions if they are highly negligent. Accidents and negligence are not the same thing. They should not be indemnified just because they are medical professionals!..

A common lawyer said:

Sometimes, those mistakes are so serious that only prosecution can be an appropriate response from society.

Edited by nekrum on Friday 26th December 15:25

[Chrisgr31]

I believe that midwives are the most sued of any of the medical teams.

[Dixy]

The loss of a child must be the worst thing to experience and I wont never mind cant imagine it.
the NHS sets aside £800 for every birth to cover claims.
Yes everything that goes wrong should be understood and the lesson learnt.
A large percentage of doctors leave the country after f2 as they wont except the beurocracy that says filling in forms to prove a defence and being nice to relatives is better than treating patients.
A doctor can and are contracted to work more hours in seven consecutive nights than a truck driver can work in a fortnight. Except Shipman who made it even madder none of the profession set out to harm.
The bill for litigation is crippling the NHS.
But I am being ridiculous.

[singlecoil]

Dixy said:

The loss of a child must be the worst thing to experience and I wont never mind cant imagine it.
the NHS sets aside £800 for every birth to cover claims.
Yes everything that goes wrong should be understood and the lesson learnt.
A large percentage of doctors leave the country after f2 as they wont except the beurocracy that says filling in forms to prove a defence and being nice to relatives is better than treating patients.
A doctor can and are contracted to work more hours in seven consecutive nights than a truck driver can work in a fortnight. Except Shipman who made it even madder none of the profession set out to harm.
The bill for litigation is crippling the NHS.
But I am being ridiculous.

Good post

[NicD]

Dixy said:

The bill for litigation is crippling the NHS.
But I am being ridiculous.

No, you are not.

[allergictocheese]

The NHS owes a duty of care to its patients. If it fails in that duty of care the victim(s) ought to have proper right to recompense (which in itself doesn't have to be financial). The NHS should not be immune from having to answer when mistakes are made.

If you were to prevent people from holding the NHS to account, do people believe that would help raise, or lower standards?

The NHS could save billions by rationalising their processes nationwide and working better to ensure mistakes are avoided (whilst accepting a 100% avoidance of error is unattainable).

[paintman]

This link to the CPS is worth a read. Covers the various Murder/Manslaughter offences:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder...
What, if any, recommendations/referrals did the Coroner make?
Are you intending to ask the Police to take action or are you considering action yourself?
You do need to speak to a specialist in the field.

[Chrisgr31]

My wife is a midwife so I am well aware of the pressure and stress they are under particularly on the very few occasions where it goes wrong and they need to consider whether there was anything they could have done for a different outcome. They certainly don't forget the occasions where the outcome is not a healthy baby and mother.

Mind you I was thinking about this last night too. Ambulance staff do 12 hour shifts I believe. If you or I are expected to spend hours driving we are required to rest every 2 hours etc. I bet most ambulance staff get little rest and are driving in very stressful situations.

[Beggarall]

nekrum said:

Thanks for the replys.

For clarification we have just had an inquest in which there is clearly clinical negligence, the Trust have already admitted liability. Our legal people have not had much experience with criminal law and I want to satisfy my own mind as to if we have or have not grounds for a cps referral as the evidence is damming. In sort I'm after a second opinion from somebody who has criminal law experience in relation to gross negligence by medical professionals.

I'm after a referral if anybody knows anybody who may be able to assist, I'm not after advice on forum and I'm happy to pay.

Edited by nekrum on Monday 22 December 19:55

I feel for you OP - sorry to learn what has happened. However, it is often difficult to find someone to hold to account and in my experience it may be difficult to lay a charge of negligence against one individual as often the mistake is collective. I think the coroner is able to refer a case to the police/cps for further investigation if he thinks there is criminal culpability and you may even be able to discuss this with the coroner himself. Going the civil route is time consuming and expensive although you may get a "no win no fee" agency to take it on for you. At the end of the day you will need to consider what it is you want to get out of this and, not to put to fine a point on the matter, is it an explanation, an apology, money, a head on the block or something else that you want? The hospital Trust will almost certainly have a PALs service and they may be able to give you a guide or at least access some help and support for you and your family. Alternatively you could approach one of the support services listed through the coroners court support services listed here. Good luck with whatever route you take and please keep us updated.

[Exige77]

NicD said:

Dixy said:

The bill for litigation is crippling the NHS.
But I am being ridiculous.

No, you are not.

^^^^^^What he said.

[aw51 121565]

OP, have you made a formal complaint to PALS yet?

I think we all appreciate that you're under a lot of pressure and are very upset - but please don't rush into anything .

I am making a claim for clinical negligence under a CFA (against both the local hospital and a GP surgery). As a point of interest, the prerequisite before starting this claim was a formal complaint to PALS about my late wife's treatment in hospital during a minor operation plus another formal complaint to her GP surgery regarding their treatment of my late wife following that minor op as she deteriorated daily over a month.

Both parties initially denied that anything ever went wrong; a subsequent complaint to the GPs - including quite detailed medical questions and objections to their comments that they listened to us when they didn't listen at all - led to a damn good stonewalling in between basic medical knowledge mistakes in their comments!

All three replies told their own tale . But it's important to complain and see what comes back - being cynical, can the hospital dig themselves in any deeper and help your proposed case?