Buying from China nerves
Discussion
I think you are really dancing with the devil here.
You are making basic fundemental mistakes everyone makes when first trying to import.
Rule 1: If something looks the same from a chinese website, feels the same and works the same - ITS NOT THE SAME!
Let me tell you why; firstly these people just copy these pictures from reputable companies and put their logo on the front to make it look like theirs.
Rule 2: Never trust what they say if you have never dealt with them before. You will be shocked, infact you will be dumb founded at the number of adverts appearing to have great products but infact are utter rubbish once you get them in your hands. Especially for a machine of this nature, it comes down to the quality of the materials and how long it is going to last for. I imagine spending 37k plus means its more of a long term investment and not something you want to keep replacing.
Further to this these factories can change the specs of any components and especially if you are not in the know about the technical aspects of how these machines work, the stress they come under and the reliabilty and longevity of the components then why take the risk?
I can understand even taking the risk with up to 2k but up to 12k and your asking for trouble - you are getting greedy.
If you really want to put your mind at ease, go out to the factory and see if it actually looks, feels and works the same and i don't mean over 1 hour juse I mean over 12-24 hours and see if you see any differences.
Other aspects to consider is of course repairing if they break down, servicing machines and another thing you need to think about it I am sure it will have some value if you wanted to upgrade or sell it later down the line, when you come to sell you can say purchased from Uk company etc etc
If it was me I wouldn't take the risk. I have seen plenty of people fall down this trap and the only thing they end up doing in the end is kicking themself.
You are making basic fundemental mistakes everyone makes when first trying to import.
Rule 1: If something looks the same from a chinese website, feels the same and works the same - ITS NOT THE SAME!
Let me tell you why; firstly these people just copy these pictures from reputable companies and put their logo on the front to make it look like theirs.
Rule 2: Never trust what they say if you have never dealt with them before. You will be shocked, infact you will be dumb founded at the number of adverts appearing to have great products but infact are utter rubbish once you get them in your hands. Especially for a machine of this nature, it comes down to the quality of the materials and how long it is going to last for. I imagine spending 37k plus means its more of a long term investment and not something you want to keep replacing.
Further to this these factories can change the specs of any components and especially if you are not in the know about the technical aspects of how these machines work, the stress they come under and the reliabilty and longevity of the components then why take the risk?
I can understand even taking the risk with up to 2k but up to 12k and your asking for trouble - you are getting greedy.
If you really want to put your mind at ease, go out to the factory and see if it actually looks, feels and works the same and i don't mean over 1 hour juse I mean over 12-24 hours and see if you see any differences.
Other aspects to consider is of course repairing if they break down, servicing machines and another thing you need to think about it I am sure it will have some value if you wanted to upgrade or sell it later down the line, when you come to sell you can say purchased from Uk company etc etc
If it was me I wouldn't take the risk. I have seen plenty of people fall down this trap and the only thing they end up doing in the end is kicking themself.
Quattromaster said:
The lathe in question is to be used for alloy wheel refurbishing, I already have a HAAS cnc at one site, and an old Colchester with copier at another, the HAAS is massive overkill for what it does, and the Colchester is, shall we say, hard work.
I'm hoping this one will fit in nicely between the others. With regard to flying out to China to take a look, I would love to, however, and this is by no means an excuse but I'm a wheelchair user, so any trip needs lots of planning and isn't really an option on my own.
Here's some pictures of the 2 lathes in question, pic with water mark is the one from China.
I'm sure you will all agree they look the same product.
Ps. further to my previous reply - these machine ARE NOT the same - there are a few differences between them, subtle as they may seem. If I had more pictures I could probably point out many more. I'm hoping this one will fit in nicely between the others. With regard to flying out to China to take a look, I would love to, however, and this is by no means an excuse but I'm a wheelchair user, so any trip needs lots of planning and isn't really an option on my own.
Here's some pictures of the 2 lathes in question, pic with water mark is the one from China.
I'm sure you will all agree they look the same product.
matjk said:
Cant stress this enough, if you go the china route make sure you arrange the shipping, get door to door shipping and book it from the UK, you cant simply collect form the docks and £££££ of additional costs are added, if you ask for a price from the chinese you will likely get a silly low quote, DONT be tempted it will cost way more in the long run. I can recommend a company if it helps that we use to import all our stuff. I made the costly mistake of not using them once and getting the Chinese to do it, when the machine arrived in the UK we had been charged 7 times what they quoted for things like unloading charges, storage charges. These fees are non-negotiable, don't pay and the bill goes up and they have your stuff.
Very good advice.IATM said:
Ps. further to my previous reply - these machine ARE NOT the same - there are a few differences between them, subtle as they may seem. If I had more pictures I could probably point out many more.
Given that the one in Yorkshire had the Chinese label inside, then at least the OP knows where it started out from. It's probable that the UK company takes these half apart and puts them back together properly, it may be that they also make the electrics safe too. It's a gamble, but with a £20k saving then it may be worthwhile, but I'd either buy two or a comprehensive spares package.spikeyhead said:
IATM said:
Ps. further to my previous reply - these machine ARE NOT the same - there are a few differences between them, subtle as they may seem. If I had more pictures I could probably point out many more.
Given that the one in Yorkshire had the Chinese label inside, then at least the OP knows where it started out from. It's probable that the UK company takes these half apart and puts them back together properly, it may be that they also make the electrics safe too. It's a gamble, but with a £20k saving then it may be worthwhile, but I'd either buy two or a comprehensive spares package.The OP has assumed they import these on the cheap due to him googling and finding the same picture on a chinese supplier site.
Quote:
"I'm presuming its the same machine as I went to look at the one in Yorkshire, and although it's branded with the Uk company name, on looking inside the electric box I noticed the company "crispy duck ltd", on researching them more I found they produce lathes, and looking at pictures its the same product, even the spec sheets are the same."
I used to work for a UK-Based company that produced high end capital equipment (£5k to £50k) based out of a factory unit in Hampshire.
Many of our components were cross-shared with a Taiwanese company who also produced the same/similar equipment - these included sensors, PCBs, motors, belts etc etc. It was cheaper to buy these from Taiwan than to have small scale manufacture of them here in the UK. They also had the controlling firmware, which would have cost us £££££'s to develop. The vast majority of the unit however, including machined components, and coils, were produced in house.
Our units looked near identical to theirs, but were vastly superior in quality. Think along the lines of the Vectra and Saab 9-3, essentially the same, but one is made from much higher grade metals. Invariably, it was the Taiwanese bits that went wrong.
Not saying that's what is going on here, but just to highlight that it needs further investigation.
Many of our components were cross-shared with a Taiwanese company who also produced the same/similar equipment - these included sensors, PCBs, motors, belts etc etc. It was cheaper to buy these from Taiwan than to have small scale manufacture of them here in the UK. They also had the controlling firmware, which would have cost us £££££'s to develop. The vast majority of the unit however, including machined components, and coils, were produced in house.
Our units looked near identical to theirs, but were vastly superior in quality. Think along the lines of the Vectra and Saab 9-3, essentially the same, but one is made from much higher grade metals. Invariably, it was the Taiwanese bits that went wrong.
Not saying that's what is going on here, but just to highlight that it needs further investigation.
Looking at the UK company, I doubt they have done much apart from put a label on the front. They look to be a supplier, not a manufacturer of equipment. Heck, they might even be drop-shipping the things rather than having in stock
As said, arrange for door to door shipment, not to dockside.
As long as you are comfortable with no local support/ training, and difficulties with warranties, no reason not to
As said, arrange for door to door shipment, not to dockside.
As long as you are comfortable with no local support/ training, and difficulties with warranties, no reason not to
wisbech said:
Looking at the UK company, I doubt they have done much apart from put a label on the front. They look to be a supplier, not a manufacturer of equipment.
They've got a pretty big premises...https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.8695159,-1.88563...
wisbech said:
Looking at the UK company, I doubt they have done much apart from put a label on the front. They look to be a supplier, not a manufacturer of equipment. Heck, they might even be drop-shipping the things rather than having in stock
Maybe the OP should open a dialogue with the Yorkshire company and ask them why their product is worth 3x that from China. He may get an interesting answer along the lines of the one from Dr Interceptor above, whereby certain components are sourced the same but the hardward/build quality is superior.www.dslglobalfreight.com
There are loads of shippers from China, but these are worth contacting re shipping and duties etc.
There are loads of shippers from China, but these are worth contacting re shipping and duties etc.
hornetrider said:
Maybe the OP should open a dialogue with the Yorkshire company and ask them why their product is worth 3x that from China. He may get an interesting answer along the lines of the one from Dr Interceptor above, whereby certain components are sourced the same but the hardward/build quality is superior.
This.At what price would you prefer to buy the UK sourced one?
I'd go to them, tell them you've seen it on sale in China for nowt, ask them how they can justify the hike. Including of course cost of shipping, duty etc as mentioned above.
I'd be looking for a decent discount (who pays full price?), and good answers to questions about warranty and after warranty availability of spares, say 10 years in the future.
If they offer an extended warranty, include that in your calcs. I suspect they probably do add some value to justify the price increase, the question is whether or not it's worth it to you.
Quattromaster said:
I'm sure you will all agree they look the same product.
No, they look similar, they are definitely not the same thing. Just for starters the doors, handles and CNC panels are different. Lord only knows what chuck and toolholding the Chinese one has.Anything bought directly out of China will not be properly CE marked, and will have impossibly difficult to replace parts in it should it go wrong.
Ean218 said:
No, they look similar, they are definitely not the same thing. Just for starters the doors, handles and CNC panels are different. Lord only knows what chuck and toolholding the Chinese one has.
Anything bought directly out of China will not be properly CE marked, and will have impossibly difficult to replace parts in it should it go wrong.
The CE marking is an issue, especially if it lobs a wheel and the HSE get involved. Anything bought directly out of China will not be properly CE marked, and will have impossibly difficult to replace parts in it should it go wrong.
Super Slo Mo said:
o be fair to them, my Chinese suppliers have been very good from an after sales point of view, it's just that it's a pain and is quite costly to return goods to them to repair.
I should mention that this is for relatively cheap and small items of a few hundred quid each, not lathes at £11k plus
Once you find the good suppliers I agree. Warranty issues are the pain for sureI should mention that this is for relatively cheap and small items of a few hundred quid each, not lathes at £11k plus
Ean218 said:
Quattromaster said:
I'm sure you will all agree they look the same product.
No, they look similar, they are definitely not the same thing. Just for starters the doors, handles and CNC panels are different. Lord only knows what chuck and toolholding the Chinese one has.Anything bought directly out of China will not be properly CE marked, and will have impossibly difficult to replace parts in it should it go wrong.
The Crack Fox said:
Can you afford to bin the Chinese one and buy again in the UK if/when there's a problem?
That's out of the box thinking. That's what I did when I bought 2 machines for less than the cost of 1 in the UK a few years ago.
But take the idea further...
Can you afford to buy two, not pay a huge amount more for shipping and sell the other in the UK....?
They will be the same machine without doubt. There are lots of machine tool companies that do this, XYZ and Excel for two. XYZ probably sell more CNC machine tools in the UK than anyone and the majority of their machines are rebadged Chinese machines (King Dong IIRC). Admittedly they do add their own control system and a few little tweaks but they are essentially a rebadged machine. I have bought a few and they are very good, albeit simple machines. My own personal opinion is the quality is actually better than Haas which I would put at the bottom of the market for quality and reliability.
I would however be weary of any work holding and tooling supplied from China. Personally I would be putting a good quality chucking system on it and good quality tooling. By the way, is that manual turret ok for what you need, wouldn't a programmable one be better?
One point is that I can't quite see what the control system is, it doesn't look like Fanuc to me. I would be weary of a Chinese control as you will be hard pushed to get support in the UK for it in terms of programming. If it is from one of the big boys then you will be fine to find someone. Drives, encoders and other parts related to the control will also be difficult to source if Chinese unless the reseller is happy to support it even though they didn't sell it. I would say that they would.
If you are making a significant saving I wouldn't be too worried about service support. There are plenty of independents that could look after that machine for you and you are in the right location.
One other small point is I wouldn't be comfortable hanging those jaws out as far as they are in that in the picture. I would be looking at a larger chuck than that.
I wouldn't have any issues with buying a machine tool direct from China at all.
Good luck with whatever you do.
I would however be weary of any work holding and tooling supplied from China. Personally I would be putting a good quality chucking system on it and good quality tooling. By the way, is that manual turret ok for what you need, wouldn't a programmable one be better?
One point is that I can't quite see what the control system is, it doesn't look like Fanuc to me. I would be weary of a Chinese control as you will be hard pushed to get support in the UK for it in terms of programming. If it is from one of the big boys then you will be fine to find someone. Drives, encoders and other parts related to the control will also be difficult to source if Chinese unless the reseller is happy to support it even though they didn't sell it. I would say that they would.
If you are making a significant saving I wouldn't be too worried about service support. There are plenty of independents that could look after that machine for you and you are in the right location.
One other small point is I wouldn't be comfortable hanging those jaws out as far as they are in that in the picture. I would be looking at a larger chuck than that.
I wouldn't have any issues with buying a machine tool direct from China at all.
Good luck with whatever you do.
Edited by Jonnas on Friday 4th September 11:07
Well, an interesting 24 hrs, the company in China gave me the phone number of 3 people over here who have there product, 2 wheel refurbishers and a main dealer bodyshop.
I've managed to speak with 2 of them, both rate the machine very highly, and one even said "you do know its the same as "the yorkshire" company sell.
So, I decided to call the uk company this morning to have a chat, they were very open and said it is the same machine, they arrange shipment direct to me, from China, with a lead time of 6-8 weeks. No movement at all on price, although you do get 24 months warranty with uk company, only 12 if buying from Chinese.
I also emailed the Chinese company yesterday pointing out the machines were not the same, they came back with the "uk picture" is an early machine, sent over 9 months ago, since then they have changed handles and reshaped the module door, I presume that being the door with "computer" in it.
I'm about to contact some shipping agents to get a door to door price, I think I will then be able to look at the price difference closer and make a choice from there.
Thanks again folks for all your pointers, good and bad. Most helpful.
I've managed to speak with 2 of them, both rate the machine very highly, and one even said "you do know its the same as "the yorkshire" company sell.
So, I decided to call the uk company this morning to have a chat, they were very open and said it is the same machine, they arrange shipment direct to me, from China, with a lead time of 6-8 weeks. No movement at all on price, although you do get 24 months warranty with uk company, only 12 if buying from Chinese.
I also emailed the Chinese company yesterday pointing out the machines were not the same, they came back with the "uk picture" is an early machine, sent over 9 months ago, since then they have changed handles and reshaped the module door, I presume that being the door with "computer" in it.
I'm about to contact some shipping agents to get a door to door price, I think I will then be able to look at the price difference closer and make a choice from there.
Thanks again folks for all your pointers, good and bad. Most helpful.
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