Good investment??? Dirt Factory
Discussion
Been thinking about this, given that kart tracks have to build tracks, supply and maintain karts etc if they can make the numbers add up this could potentially too. The income in quiet times is they key...
EDIT: Having just looked at that US site I'd say go for it. Even with decent weather here people would go to that and it could work well for all school holidays too
EDIT: Having just looked at that US site I'd say go for it. Even with decent weather here people would go to that and it could work well for all school holidays too
Edited by Undirection on Wednesday 3rd February 15:46
Undirection said:
Been thinking about this, given that kart tracks have to build tracks, supply and maintain karts etc if they can make the numbers add up this could potentially too. The income in quiet times is they key...
EDIT: Having just looked at that US site I'd say go for it. Even with decent weather here people would go to that and it could work well for all school holidays too
but how much 'grooming' does a cart track running on concrete floors or a BMX/ skate park running on concrete / metal / wood need compared to thousands of tonnes of dirt ?EDIT: Having just looked at that US site I'd say go for it. Even with decent weather here people would go to that and it could work well for all school holidays too
Edited by Undirection on Wednesday 3rd February 15:46
Skate parks attract custom because using 'natural' / built environment facilities tends to be percieved as ASB , indoor karting attracts custom becasue it;s otherwise accessible , climbing walls attract custom becasue you can climb within minutes of the office / home and not have to worry aobut running out of light ( which barring a few months of the year in a few peak and pennine areas isn;t really there naturally)
Real dirt indoors?! how will they stop it turning into dust once all the water content evaporates? The US example has no visble dirt, all the tracks look to be made of wood. There's also the small matter of floor loading, real dirt is heavy!
If its such a good idea, why arent the owners and/or their bank funding it? I suspect this will either never see the light of day, or will be stillborn.
If its such a good idea, why arent the owners and/or their bank funding it? I suspect this will either never see the light of day, or will be stillborn.
This blog is pretty interesting reading and as a natural sceptic it appeals to me.
http://fantasyequitycrowdfunding.blogspot.co.uk/
The guy who writes it clearly has an axe to grind about ECF, but it is thought provoking none the less.
With reference to the previous post I believe a lot of these companies could not possibly get off the ground / survive without the advent of ECF. Make of that what you will.
http://fantasyequitycrowdfunding.blogspot.co.uk/
The guy who writes it clearly has an axe to grind about ECF, but it is thought provoking none the less.
With reference to the previous post I believe a lot of these companies could not possibly get off the ground / survive without the advent of ECF. Make of that what you will.
LDN said:
Chill Factore near the Trafford centre has been a massive success but I realise that ski domes are a unique proposition.
No it's not. It cost £31m to build in 2007, has never made a profit and was sold to Development Securities in 2015 for £15.5m. In 2013 alone it made an annual loss of £10m.What is being proposed here is far too niche for such a high cost operation. The concept that hundreds of people a day will pay to go mountain biking on what will be quite small hills (nothing more than the existing indoor BMX track at Manchester Velodrome I suspect) during Spring, Summer and Autumn is rather short sited. To most MTB'ers a major part of the sport is the great outdoors and the fact it's free. The number of people this will appeal to will be tiny - and then how many of them will actually use the facility?
It would be a brilliant thing to have if they could get a rich benefactor to pay for it, or get government funding, but as a way of making money it would get a definite no from me.
JQ said:
LDN said:
Chill Factore near the Trafford centre has been a massive success but I realise that ski domes are a unique proposition.
No it's not. It cost £31m to build in 2007, has never made a profit and was sold to Development Securities in 2015 for £15.5m. In 2013 alone it made an annual loss of £10m.What is being proposed here is far too niche for such a high cost operation. The concept that hundreds of people a day will pay to go mountain biking on what will be quite small hills (nothing more than the existing indoor BMX track at Manchester Velodrome I suspect) during Spring, Summer and Autumn is rather short sited. To most MTB'ers a major part of the sport is the great outdoors and the fact it's free. The number of people this will appeal to will be tiny - and then how many of them will actually use the facility?
It would be a brilliant thing to have if they could get a rich benefactor to pay for it, or get government funding, but as a way of making money it would get a definite no from me.
I saw this on Twitter the other day, but gave up looking when I realised you had to register just to see the details.
I'd probably visit it, but mostly to see what it is like. Mountain biking has replaced snowboarding for me as it is something that I can do from home, without needing to pay to visit a venue.
I'd probably visit it, but mostly to see what it is like. Mountain biking has replaced snowboarding for me as it is something that I can do from home, without needing to pay to visit a venue.
LDN said:
JQ said:
LDN said:
Chill Factore near the Trafford centre has been a massive success but I realise that ski domes are a unique proposition.
No it's not. It cost £31m to build in 2007, has never made a profit and was sold to Development Securities in 2015 for £15.5m. In 2013 alone it made an annual loss of £10m.What is being proposed here is far too niche for such a high cost operation. The concept that hundreds of people a day will pay to go mountain biking on what will be quite small hills (nothing more than the existing indoor BMX track at Manchester Velodrome I suspect) during Spring, Summer and Autumn is rather short sited. To most MTB'ers a major part of the sport is the great outdoors and the fact it's free. The number of people this will appeal to will be tiny - and then how many of them will actually use the facility?
It would be a brilliant thing to have if they could get a rich benefactor to pay for it, or get government funding, but as a way of making money it would get a definite no from me.
What would be really interesting to uncover would be be how much revenue the indoor BMX track at the Velodrome takes and how much it costs to run. I would guess that if it had to operate without government funding it would run at a huge loss. It's a fantastic facility and very similar to this proposal, the only difference being dirt construction and a few jump add-ons.
Couple of things to add.
Firstly - I think a lot of people are missing the point here, this is not supposed to be indoor 'hill' riding. Trails in MTB terms is referring to dirt jumps, not just riding around in the mud. So essentially in between a motorcross track, and a skate-park, for bikes. BMX as well as MTB. *Just noticed there's an 'XC loop', but I can't see anyone using that.
You can't just rock up to anywhere and ride trails like these - the few that there are, are often hidden away, and a closely guarded secret. They take time and effort to build, and are easily ruined, and also tend to be built on other peoples (unused) land. People would pay to use for the same reasons people pay to use BMX/MX tracks.
So the 'mountain bikers like bad weather, scenery, can do it anywhere/won't travel to ride' arguments, don't work.
But - the market is too niche. If the snowdomes can't do it, neither can they. This is just a couple of guys who've got to october, local trails get wet/cold, think 'lets do a kickstarter'. There's no way this is going anywhere.
Firstly - I think a lot of people are missing the point here, this is not supposed to be indoor 'hill' riding. Trails in MTB terms is referring to dirt jumps, not just riding around in the mud. So essentially in between a motorcross track, and a skate-park, for bikes. BMX as well as MTB. *Just noticed there's an 'XC loop', but I can't see anyone using that.
You can't just rock up to anywhere and ride trails like these - the few that there are, are often hidden away, and a closely guarded secret. They take time and effort to build, and are easily ruined, and also tend to be built on other peoples (unused) land. People would pay to use for the same reasons people pay to use BMX/MX tracks.
So the 'mountain bikers like bad weather, scenery, can do it anywhere/won't travel to ride' arguments, don't work.
But - the market is too niche. If the snowdomes can't do it, neither can they. This is just a couple of guys who've got to october, local trails get wet/cold, think 'lets do a kickstarter'. There's no way this is going anywhere.
veevee said:
Couple of things to add.
Firstly - I think a lot of people are missing the point here, this is not supposed to be indoor 'hill' riding. Trails in MTB terms is referring to dirt jumps, not just riding around in the mud. So essentially in between a motorcross track, and a skate-park, for bikes. BMX as well as MTB. *Just noticed there's an 'XC loop', but I can't see anyone using that.
You can't just rock up to anywhere and ride trails like these - the few that there are, are often hidden away, and a closely guarded secret. They take time and effort to build, and are easily ruined, and also tend to be built on other peoples (unused) land. People would pay to use for the same reasons people pay to use BMX/MX tracks.
So the 'mountain bikers like bad weather, scenery, can do it anywhere/won't travel to ride' arguments, don't work.
But - the market is too niche. If the snowdomes can't do it, neither can they. This is just a couple of guys who've got to october, local trails get wet/cold, think 'lets do a kickstarter'. There's no way this is going anywhere.
Good point, I know in the Alps, the trails are very popular and there are areas that people flock to just to ride them.. the man made trails are fun and as you say easily destroyed / messed with.Firstly - I think a lot of people are missing the point here, this is not supposed to be indoor 'hill' riding. Trails in MTB terms is referring to dirt jumps, not just riding around in the mud. So essentially in between a motorcross track, and a skate-park, for bikes. BMX as well as MTB. *Just noticed there's an 'XC loop', but I can't see anyone using that.
You can't just rock up to anywhere and ride trails like these - the few that there are, are often hidden away, and a closely guarded secret. They take time and effort to build, and are easily ruined, and also tend to be built on other peoples (unused) land. People would pay to use for the same reasons people pay to use BMX/MX tracks.
So the 'mountain bikers like bad weather, scenery, can do it anywhere/won't travel to ride' arguments, don't work.
But - the market is too niche. If the snowdomes can't do it, neither can they. This is just a couple of guys who've got to october, local trails get wet/cold, think 'lets do a kickstarter'. There's no way this is going anywhere.
veevee said:
Couple of things to add.
Firstly - I think a lot of people are missing the point here, this is not supposed to be indoor 'hill' riding. Trails in MTB terms is referring to dirt jumps, not just riding around in the mud. So essentially in between a motorcross track, and a skate-park, for bikes. BMX as well as MTB. *Just noticed there's an 'XC loop', but I can't see anyone using that.
You can't just rock up to anywhere and ride trails like these - the few that there are, are often hidden away, and a closely guarded secret. They take time and effort to build, and are easily ruined, and also tend to be built on other peoples (unused) land. People would pay to use for the same reasons people pay to use BMX/MX tracks.
So the 'mountain bikers like bad weather, scenery, can do it anywhere/won't travel to ride' arguments, don't work.
But - the market is too niche. If the snowdomes can't do it, neither can they. This is just a couple of guys who've got to october, local trails get wet/cold, think 'lets do a kickstarter'. There's no way this is going anywhere.
The problem is, that all already exists in Manchester. The Velodrome complex is huge, is located on the edge of the city centre and includes :Firstly - I think a lot of people are missing the point here, this is not supposed to be indoor 'hill' riding. Trails in MTB terms is referring to dirt jumps, not just riding around in the mud. So essentially in between a motorcross track, and a skate-park, for bikes. BMX as well as MTB. *Just noticed there's an 'XC loop', but I can't see anyone using that.
You can't just rock up to anywhere and ride trails like these - the few that there are, are often hidden away, and a closely guarded secret. They take time and effort to build, and are easily ruined, and also tend to be built on other peoples (unused) land. People would pay to use for the same reasons people pay to use BMX/MX tracks.
So the 'mountain bikers like bad weather, scenery, can do it anywhere/won't travel to ride' arguments, don't work.
But - the market is too niche. If the snowdomes can't do it, neither can they. This is just a couple of guys who've got to october, local trails get wet/cold, think 'lets do a kickstarter'. There's no way this is going anywhere.
An indoor BMX track with enormous jumps, pretty much exactly what is being proposed here with the only difference being this proposal will be constructed out of dirt. I think it cost around £10m to build and is the only indoor BMX track in the UK. It is absolutely huge and an amazing facility.
A huge outdoor BMX track with enormous jumps
Purpose built MTB trails
A pupose built skills trail
Plus also the actual Velodrome and all the facilities that brings with it. I believe that cost around £30m to build.
All of those are located 10 mins cyle from the city centre in a single location, with a huge car park, loads of facilities (changing rooms, showers, shops etc) and home to many teams and clubs, including the home of British Cycling. It was government funded so actually using the facility is quite cheap. All the MTB stuff is completely free. I love that fact that it's in Manchester and it's a great resource to have access to.
To me what's being proposed is like buying a site and building a motorcycle track day venue 5 minutes from Oulton Park and describing it as a totally different proposition as it's being targetted only motorcyclists and only at trackdayers as they have no plans to hosts races.
With a lot of government funding it may work in another big city, but trying to do it in a city with arguably the best cycling facilities in the country seems rather bold.
I don't plan to register to get the details, is anyone prepered to summarise some of the numbers, things like :
sq ft of the faciliity
Projected running costs - rent, rates, building maintenance, salaries, finance costs, etc
Projected income amd how that's derived.
It would be another great facility to have in the city, but I can't imagine how on earth it could prove profitable.
I have been following this potential investment with interest. I like the fact that the equity percentage for the funding round is high, I like the fact you are investing in The Company and all of its future sites not just Manchester. I don't like the fact there is A and B shares. I try to invest in A shares only so anything under £3k here and its B shares so presume no preemption rights.
I'm think the idea is great and if done well should be a great attraction. My biggest worry is do they have enough capital to make it great or will they be returning to the crowd for more and then dilution if you don't re fund.
I'm think the idea is great and if done well should be a great attraction. My biggest worry is do they have enough capital to make it great or will they be returning to the crowd for more and then dilution if you don't re fund.
The thing with places like Xscape etc, they have something that is not easily accessible. Real snow isn't common in most of the UK.
Mud, well, it's everywhere. I think somewhere like this may get a lot of younger customers, but only at the weekends. The more serious riders would just go to the woods. Why pay for what is there already?
I don't know of two many riders who are put off by the winter.
Mud, well, it's everywhere. I think somewhere like this may get a lot of younger customers, but only at the weekends. The more serious riders would just go to the woods. Why pay for what is there already?
I don't know of two many riders who are put off by the winter.
marksx said:
I don't know of two many riders who are put off by the winter.
A huge number are. In winter you'll see numbers drop off considerably and also, bike values drop off as ac result too. Of courser the hardcore bikers will still go but the overall numbers are tiny compared to summer. Its no different from track days, running etc. Bad weather will always put people off. Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff