3 or 4 way roundabout?
Discussion
I appreciate the thread title may have some confused as it should seem obvious but I was after some thoughts from others on this one...
When I drive into my estate, there is a mini-roundabout with one of the entries/exits being buses and cycles only and the other 2 being the road in and out of the estate.
Opposite the bus lane entry/exit, there is a path way that is very often used by bikes. It is not part of the road but it is to the right of drivers when driving into the estate.
The council have put give way markings down on the pavement but does this know mean it is part of the roundabout? I say no as you are still on the pavement and this is to say you are to give way to things that are already on the road but several times, I have had near misses with cyclists as they seem to judge it as a roundabout entry/exit point and that I should be giving way to them, the same way I would give way to traffic to the right on any other roundabout but I am not so sure.
I hope that all makes sense and I have put a link to Google Maps below which will hopefully take you to the satellite view of the roundabout in question where you can see the markings.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Long+Mead,+Sto...
When I drive into my estate, there is a mini-roundabout with one of the entries/exits being buses and cycles only and the other 2 being the road in and out of the estate.
Opposite the bus lane entry/exit, there is a path way that is very often used by bikes. It is not part of the road but it is to the right of drivers when driving into the estate.
The council have put give way markings down on the pavement but does this know mean it is part of the roundabout? I say no as you are still on the pavement and this is to say you are to give way to things that are already on the road but several times, I have had near misses with cyclists as they seem to judge it as a roundabout entry/exit point and that I should be giving way to them, the same way I would give way to traffic to the right on any other roundabout but I am not so sure.
I hope that all makes sense and I have put a link to Google Maps below which will hopefully take you to the satellite view of the roundabout in question where you can see the markings.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Long+Mead,+Sto...
I'm struggling to understand where you are when you have these near misses.
If you're established on the roundabout and the cycles are on the pavement (or at any other entrances to the roundabout), they should be giving way to you.
If the cycles are on the roundabout and you're waiting to enter, you should be giving way to them.
If you're established on the roundabout and the cycles are on the pavement (or at any other entrances to the roundabout), they should be giving way to you.
If the cycles are on the roundabout and you're waiting to enter, you should be giving way to them.
marshalla said:
I'm struggling to understand where you are when you have these near misses.
If you're established on the roundabout and the cycles are on the pavement (or at any other entrances to the roundabout), they should be giving way to you.
If the cycles are on the roundabout and you're waiting to enter, you should be giving way to them.
If the OP is coming down Long down Ave from right to left then the cyclist would be on his right as he approached the roundabout If you're established on the roundabout and the cycles are on the pavement (or at any other entrances to the roundabout), they should be giving way to you.
If the cycles are on the roundabout and you're waiting to enter, you should be giving way to them.
pinchmeimdreamin said:
marshalla said:
I'm struggling to understand where you are when you have these near misses.
If you're established on the roundabout and the cycles are on the pavement (or at any other entrances to the roundabout), they should be giving way to you.
If the cycles are on the roundabout and you're waiting to enter, you should be giving way to them.
If the OP is coming down Long down Ave from right to left then the cyclist would be on his right as he approached the roundabout If you're established on the roundabout and the cycles are on the pavement (or at any other entrances to the roundabout), they should be giving way to you.
If the cycles are on the roundabout and you're waiting to enter, you should be giving way to them.
Riley Blue said:
In which case the 'give way to the right' rule should apply, shouldn't it?
When applied to many mini-roundabouts, quoting 'give way to the right' as if that clears everything up is a practical nonsense. At what distance from the 'Give Way' line on approach does a vehicle inherit these rights? Unless everybody keeps it below 5mph on approach then everybody needs to use some common sense where mini-roundabouts are concerned, and not assume (often incorrectly) that they have priority over another vehicle and can proceed regardless.The nature of the mini-roundabout in question makes it very easy and safe to use without the cycle ingress, which looks like a complete afterthought judging by its position. Left as it is the cyclists should have no priority on that roundabout and a sign telling them to stop and give way to all other traffic should be in place.
pinchmeimdreamin said:
If the OP is coming down Long down Ave from right to left then the cyclist would be on his right as he approached the roundabout
but also, assuming they follow the road markings on the mini-roundabout: they would effectively turn left onto the roundabout, then follow round to the right, establishing their 'priority to the right'.However, I have a suspicion that perhaps the cyclists that he's coming into conflict with are straight-lining the roundabout across to the bus/cycle route opposite?
The cyclists do indeed normally straight line it and go up the bus lane rather than make an effort to go round the road markings.
For what it is worth, I do give way to them when I see them and they don't come flying out, whether I have to or not.
cmaguire said:
The nature of the mini-roundabout in question makes it very easy and safe to use without the cycle ingress, which looks like a complete afterthought judging by its position. Left as it is the cyclists should have no priority on that roundabout and a sign telling them to stop and give way to all other traffic should be in place.
This is how I feel. It is a bit of a strange one as they are coming from a pavement so they aren't on a proper roundabout entry/exit but yet the give way markings make it look like they are, hence the confusion.For what it is worth, I do give way to them when I see them and they don't come flying out, whether I have to or not.
Edited by Uppy89 on Tuesday 26th July 13:03
Riley Blue said:
In which case the 'give way to the right' rule should apply, shouldn't it?
Yes, if the cycle lane is indeed a formal entry point to the roundabout.I can understand why OP thinks it ambiguous. And it's a good example of bad design of a junction. If it isn't obvious it is going to have the potential to cause contention.
Give way markings such as this are to denote that the cyclist should give-way to traffic before entering the carriageway. They do not demark the cycle lane as a formal entry to the roundabout. The cyclists should therefore be ceding to traffic until they are clear to enter the carriageway.
ETA, it's a stupid bit of marking from the highway authority - would probably be flagged as a concern if it had been safety audited.
Further ETA - really you should be ceding right of way if you're coming from the east anyway - the cyclist will have entered the carriageway to your right and at that point they are technically circulating the mini-roundabout.
ETA, it's a stupid bit of marking from the highway authority - would probably be flagged as a concern if it had been safety audited.
Further ETA - really you should be ceding right of way if you're coming from the east anyway - the cyclist will have entered the carriageway to your right and at that point they are technically circulating the mini-roundabout.
Edited by Swervin_Mervin on Tuesday 26th July 14:07
Wow... someone else from Cheswick, Bristol....
It's also a dropped kerb where the markings are - although google maps doesnt show this.
Ive often wondered the same about this junction, but I do give way to the right (but still not sure if i should - the cycles are normally waiting on the pavement behind the markings).
mbcx4jrh said:
It's also a dropped kerb where the markings are - although google maps doesnt show this.
It does if you use Street View mode - https://goo.gl/maps/NQHA6uooRz62 - 
This case, I believe that the cyclists should give way to ALL traffic on the road as they are joining the road from the pavement but directly onto a roundabout. Once passed the markings however they are on the roundabout they should be given way to as per normal give way to the right rule.
The bike lane does not have enough straight to get to 20mph. 10mph, 15 if the corner was taken at speed. The cars won't be exceeding 20mph... not a PH driving god anyway.
Plenty of time for all concerned to stop at those speeds. BUT...
I agree it's ambiguous road design, and those hedges exacerbate the problem as you won't see a cyclist approaching from the right.
Plenty of time for all concerned to stop at those speeds. BUT...
I agree it's ambiguous road design, and those hedges exacerbate the problem as you won't see a cyclist approaching from the right.
I do not think that the cycle path junction to the mini roundabout "counts", if you like, as a normal entrance to it, and any cyclists should treat it as requiring them to give way to any traffic approaching it.
However, if I were driving, I'd assume that a cyclist was about to rocket out and approach it accordingly. I bet visibility of any cyclists coming will be a bit of a pain if those hedges are allowed to grow a bit.
However, if I were driving, I'd assume that a cyclist was about to rocket out and approach it accordingly. I bet visibility of any cyclists coming will be a bit of a pain if those hedges are allowed to grow a bit.
donkmeister said:
The bike lane does not have enough straight to get to 20mph. 10mph, 15 if the corner was taken at speed.
It absolutely does. Probably not a high-geared roadbike, but as a mountain-biking teenager I'd have been pinning it in the middle ring as soon as I was clearing the corner, get as much speed on as I could for the stoppie I'd pull at the end. Then my mate'd run into the back of me, and down we'd go like dominoes. Good times.giantdefy said:
fangio said:
Give way to a cyclist on a footpath? Really?
It's not a footpath it is a shared cycle path and footpathThe cycle route boundary markings are not regulatory markings and have double yellow lines in front of them which suggests a carriageway boundary and not a junction. Nothing for a driver to give way to until the cyclist has safely joined the roundabout.
fangio said:
Give way to a cyclist on a footpath? Really?
Not so much "give way" as "assume they're going to do something stupid like come straight out in front of you, and accept that the law offers little protection or opportunity for recompense in that situation, so even though they'd be in the wrong, you have to allow for it"Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff