Discussion
ecs said:
That seems stupidly simplified to me? Contractor Calculator's own test asks many more questions, HMRC's only seemed to care about substitution?!
If you a real true right of substitution where the client would accept a substitute then you are deemed outside.If the client would have to interview them etc then you don't.
It then moves on
The delays (the beta did not emerge until 2017) owe to technical, development and conceptual issues, such as the ESS giving more weight to Substitution than Control.
In fact, the current version of the tool stops testing and returns a ‘not caught’ result if users input that a suitably skilled substitute can be sent, regardless of Control or other factors like Mutuality.
Status experts point out that such a determination is incorrect, in that a contract with a good substitution clause but where control and MOO exists would almost certainly be inside IR35.
http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012924hmrc_shift...
In fact, the current version of the tool stops testing and returns a ‘not caught’ result if users input that a suitably skilled substitute can be sent, regardless of Control or other factors like Mutuality.
Status experts point out that such a determination is incorrect, in that a contract with a good substitution clause but where control and MOO exists would almost certainly be inside IR35.
http://www.contractoruk.com/news/0012924hmrc_shift...
alfie2244 said:
But to clarify it's the end client's responsibility to input the data and not the contractor.
I will be sitting with the client inputting the data, so i can ensure they are entering the details correctly.I would suggest if at all possible, people do that.
Bit of a moot point for me personally, as the overall PSO have decided to deem everyone in.
Overturning that for specific individuals will be an uphill battle.
I work for a big london borough.
they have said all contractors will be considered as falling under IR35.
I have appealed but do not hold much hope.
My role is not covering an existing job , I do not manage staff, I find my own work for the year and agree with the client what to do first and then do it with no supervision. My skill sets are rare in that I have detailed knowledge of council tax/business rates/benefits/recovery/parking/housing etc which is hard to find
tricky bit is getting the client to acknowledge that I am unsupervised which is the reality but will they admit to that to the head HR honcho.... I doubt it.
Already people are leaving and I suspect some councils will increase daily rates to try to keep staff
they have said all contractors will be considered as falling under IR35.
I have appealed but do not hold much hope.
My role is not covering an existing job , I do not manage staff, I find my own work for the year and agree with the client what to do first and then do it with no supervision. My skill sets are rare in that I have detailed knowledge of council tax/business rates/benefits/recovery/parking/housing etc which is hard to find
tricky bit is getting the client to acknowledge that I am unsupervised which is the reality but will they admit to that to the head HR honcho.... I doubt it.
Already people are leaving and I suspect some councils will increase daily rates to try to keep staff
My services are procured by the Govt and am fortunate enough to work in an organisation which values contractors and also know's they'd be stuffed without us. They agreed that when the ESS tool was released, we'd run through it and see what's what. Every contractor passed the tests. We can (and I certainly have in the last two weeks) substituted, I claim nothing from them and I work from home when it's not necessary to be on site.
My review clearly put's me outside of IR35 and that's what they are reporting up the chain for all of us and will continue to operate as a ltd and won't be taxed at source.
Incidentally, the organisation I work for feel slightly agrieved that this has been dropped on them. They want to buy a service with a specified outcome and have no interest in my tax affairs and have stated it has nothing to do with them how I operate my company, it's between me and HMRC.
The NHS and TfL has dropped a right clanger with not even considering what is right.
My review clearly put's me outside of IR35 and that's what they are reporting up the chain for all of us and will continue to operate as a ltd and won't be taxed at source.
Incidentally, the organisation I work for feel slightly agrieved that this has been dropped on them. They want to buy a service with a specified outcome and have no interest in my tax affairs and have stated it has nothing to do with them how I operate my company, it's between me and HMRC.
The NHS and TfL has dropped a right clanger with not even considering what is right.
Eric Mc said:
It just shows that trying to write software that can cover complex regulations is not easy. They probably need to hire some IT contractors to sort it out.
I read it was contractors that built it for them. Nice to see that the Government are following their own Digital Strategy rules and using open source. The code for the tool can be found here - https://github.com/hmrc/off-payroll-decisionAutopilot said:
My services are procured by the Govt and am fortunate enough to work in an organisation which values contractors and also know's they'd be stuffed without us. They agreed that when the ESS tool was released, we'd run through it and see what's what. Every contractor passed the tests. We can (and I certainly have in the last two weeks) substituted, I claim nothing from them and I work from home when it's not necessary to be on site.
My review clearly put's me outside of IR35 and that's what they are reporting up the chain for all of us and will continue to operate as a ltd and won't be taxed at source.
Incidentally, the organisation I work for feel slightly agrieved that this has been dropped on them. They want to buy a service with a specified outcome and have no interest in my tax affairs and have stated it has nothing to do with them how I operate my company, it's between me and HMRC.
The NHS and TfL has dropped a right clanger with not even considering what is right.
Thats the key to it. Unfortunately for a lot of us, the IR35 calculator asks if we can (effectively) simply send someone else in our place without any sort of interview / meeting / permission from the PSO, which although we all have the right of substitution in our contracts it would be based on proposing someone else, and them being "approved" in some way by the PSO.My review clearly put's me outside of IR35 and that's what they are reporting up the chain for all of us and will continue to operate as a ltd and won't be taxed at source.
Incidentally, the organisation I work for feel slightly agrieved that this has been dropped on them. They want to buy a service with a specified outcome and have no interest in my tax affairs and have stated it has nothing to do with them how I operate my company, it's between me and HMRC.
The NHS and TfL has dropped a right clanger with not even considering what is right.
Fortunately for my particular role the PSO have plugged my role in to the IR35 calculator and it came back as inconclusive - or whatever the tool term is. So they're now saying if we get a QDOS test done and it says we're out, they'll accept that. Looking on monday at completing the QDOS spreadsheet and i'll run that past the PSO to confirm they are satisfied with the answers (and also most likely the agency). Then i'll send it off. I'd be 99.9% confident it'll come back as an "out".
The agency look like they're terminating contracts and re-issuing new ones for the new financial year. I suspect they will put in a clause about the right (for them) to pursue our LTD companies for any back fines they get from HMRC because of incorrect info being entered in to the tool. I'd be surprised if they didnt.
daemon said:
The agency look like they're terminating contracts and re-issuing new ones for the new financial year. I suspect they will put in a clause about the right (for them) to pursue our LTD companies for any back fines they get from HMRC because of incorrect info being entered in to the tool. I'd be surprised if they didnt.
Can't see how they could do that when it is not the Ltd Co that is responsible for entering any of the information in the 1st place.alfie2244 said:
daemon said:
The agency look like they're terminating contracts and re-issuing new ones for the new financial year. I suspect they will put in a clause about the right (for them) to pursue our LTD companies for any back fines they get from HMRC because of incorrect info being entered in to the tool. I'd be surprised if they didnt.
Can't see how they could do that when it is not the Ltd Co that is responsible for entering any of the information in the 1st place.Edited by daemon on Sunday 5th March 17:05
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