Do you use an accountant?
Discussion
LordHaveMurci said:
Thankfully we have fees protection insurance so the 12mth saga was all handled by the accountants & the result went our way.
Yes indeed. My accountant reckoned that my one and only investigation was one of those random selection jobs where a business gets lucky (!) and has to justify all manner of tax details with evidence going back several years. This lasted 8 months and without an accountant in play it would have been an even bigger nightmare, potentially taking massive amounts of time out of the business involved, and even then, possibly not getting it right due to lack of expertise in tax matters. The upshot was nothing to see here, and although such cases involve punishing innocent businesses via accountant's fees, it's one of those things that can happen to any business and after getting it sorted with minimum fuss I didn't begrudge a single penny.Eric Mc said:
I don't really need any more work to be honest.
I am very concerned about the upcoming changes around the introduction of Making Tax Digital;. They are so radical that I may very well call it a day.
No problem, I appreciated your advice when I was starting out and you were not really looking for new clients then. I am very concerned about the upcoming changes around the introduction of Making Tax Digital;. They are so radical that I may very well call it a day.
Making Tax Digital. Just had a read up on that. 'Report through their accounting software' by 2020. Quarterly for CT.
Reads like your books are 'live' with HMRC. How would an accountant fit in?
dfen5 said:
Reads like your books are 'live' with HMRC. How would an accountant fit in?
I can't answer for Eric who will know the full SP but from here it looks as though, with the appropriate authority in place, a business tax account can remain 'live' on the systems of an accountant or accountancy firm, with the business owner supplying info for the accountant to use on their behalf. Eric?dfen5 said:
Eric Mc said:
I don't really need any more work to be honest.
I am very concerned about the upcoming changes around the introduction of Making Tax Digital;. They are so radical that I may very well call it a day.
No problem, I appreciated your advice when I was starting out and you were not really looking for new clients then. I am very concerned about the upcoming changes around the introduction of Making Tax Digital;. They are so radical that I may very well call it a day.
Making Tax Digital. Just had a read up on that. 'Report through their accounting software' by 2020. Quarterly for CT.
Reads like your books are 'live' with HMRC. How would an accountant fit in?
They MAY be allowed submit the annual update submission.
HMRC are still mulling over these very key points - with just over a year to go.
They are starting a pilot scheme in a few weeks time even though neither their nor the third party supplier software exists.
Eric Mc said:
For a start, accountants CANNOT submit the quarterly submissions nor can they access the Digital Tax Account for their clients.
They MAY be allowed submit the annual update submission.
Blimey. If that happens it'll be a sea change for sure.They MAY be allowed submit the annual update submission.
Eric Mc said:
They are starting a pilot scheme in a few weeks time even though neither their nor third party supplier software exists.
Ready, fire, aim.That said, do you know if these well-thought-out plans 
allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?
allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?Sacked the accountant off after his advice on informing him in good time that I'd be exceeding the VAT threshold was "not to worry ahout it". Can you guess how that worked out for me? Cheeky b
d even had the gall to send debt collectors for his final invoice too!
Shouldnt judge all others by his measure of course but after being left high and dry by this clown expecting me to stump up thousands or tell all my customers they now needed to pay extra on settled invoices, my own research and enquiries and creativity reducing the problem vat bill to about 25% of what he was telling me to pay, the point of having one was a little lost on me.
Ultimately though for someone like me, sole trader tradesman, I have my turnover and my costs and a figure left for which I'm to pay income tax on, what magic is it an accountant can do for me that justifies several hundred quid for half an hours work?
d even had the gall to send debt collectors for his final invoice too!Shouldnt judge all others by his measure of course but after being left high and dry by this clown expecting me to stump up thousands or tell all my customers they now needed to pay extra on settled invoices, my own research and enquiries and creativity reducing the problem vat bill to about 25% of what he was telling me to pay, the point of having one was a little lost on me.
Ultimately though for someone like me, sole trader tradesman, I have my turnover and my costs and a figure left for which I'm to pay income tax on, what magic is it an accountant can do for me that justifies several hundred quid for half an hours work?
hairyben said:
Ultimately though for someone like me, sole trader tradesman, I have my turnover and my costs and a figure left for which I'm to pay income tax on, what magic is it an accountant can do for me that justifies several hundred quid for half an hours work?
Can't say for sure, it sounds like you had a right charmer there.In other cases, some legitimate allowances can be missed or not fully exploited (as in used, not abused) by a business, HMRC's initial view can be challenged and reversed, and so on.
turbobloke said:
That said, do you know if these well-thought-out plans allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?
It seems to be the other way around. allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?HMRC, for "security" reasons, will only allow the named taxpayer access to their tax account at HMRC. That excludes appointed agents. I guess the only way would be for a taxpayer to appoint power of attorney for their tax affairs to their accountant - which I'm sure no one would really want to do.
If anything, it's the final submission that the accountants MIGHT be able to submit on behalf of the client.
Bear in mind what they mean by final submission. It is not the current self assessment tax return under another name.
If you are a sole trader with (say) a year end of 31 July 2019, your final submission for your sole trader will be due within 10 months of 31 July 2019 i.e. 31 May 2020.
If you are a landlord your rental accounting period is fixed at 5 April (no alternatives allowed) so your 10 month window would be 5 April 2019 rental income annual submission by 5 February 2020.
Note, if you were sole trader AND a landlord, you have two separate annual submissions with two separate annual deadline dates.
Not to mention that you have EIGHT separate quarterly submissions to cover your business and rental income - which have always been treated separately for tax purposes.
There is an expectation that farmers could be looking at least 14 separate quarterly and annual submissions because of the variety of income they generate from their land and buildings.
hairyben said:
Sacked the accountant off after his advice on informing him in good time that I'd be exceeding the VAT threshold was "not to worry ahout it". Can you guess how that worked out for me? Cheeky bd even had the gall to send debt collectors for his final invoice too!
Shouldnt judge all others by his measure of course but after being left high and dry by this clown expecting me to stump up thousands or tell all my customers they now needed to pay extra on settled invoices, my own research and enquiries and creativity reducing the problem vat bill to about 25% of what he was telling me to pay, the point of having one was a little lost on me.
Ultimately though for someone like me, sole trader tradesman, I have my turnover and my costs and a figure left for which I'm to pay income tax on, what magic is it an accountant can do for me that justifies several hundred quid for half an hours work?
The "magic" should be access to additional knowledge that, unless you have trained as an accountant you probably won't have. Your experience was very poor but don't assume that all accountants are like that.d even had the gall to send debt collectors for his final invoice too!Shouldnt judge all others by his measure of course but after being left high and dry by this clown expecting me to stump up thousands or tell all my customers they now needed to pay extra on settled invoices, my own research and enquiries and creativity reducing the problem vat bill to about 25% of what he was telling me to pay, the point of having one was a little lost on me.
Ultimately though for someone like me, sole trader tradesman, I have my turnover and my costs and a figure left for which I'm to pay income tax on, what magic is it an accountant can do for me that justifies several hundred quid for half an hours work?
Eric Mc said:
turbobloke said:
That said, do you know if these well-thought-out plans allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?
It seems to be the other way around. allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?HMRC, for "security" reasons, will only allow the named taxpayer access to their tax account at HMRC. That excludes appointed agents. I guess the only way would be for a taxpayer to appoint power of attorney for their tax affairs to their accountant - which I'm sure no one would really want to do.
If anything, it's the final submission that the accountants MIGHT be able to submit on behalf of the client.
Bear in mind what they mean by final submission. It is not the current self assessment tax return under another name.
If you are a sole trader with (say) a year end of 31 July 2019, your final submission for your sole trader will be due within 10 months of 31 July 2019 i.e. 31 May 2020.
If you are a landlord your rental accounting period is fixed at 5 April (no alternatives allowed) so your 10 month window would be 5 April 2019 rental income annual submission by 5 February 2020.
Note, if you were sole trader AND a landlord, you have two separate annual submissions with two separate annual deadline dates.
Not to mention that you have EIGHT separate quarterly submissions to cover your business and rental income - which have always been treated separately for tax purposes.
There is an expectation that farmers could be looking at least 14 separate quarterly and annual submissions because of the variety of income they generate from their land and buildings.
Ironically, it was announced in the 2015 budget by George Osborne as the end of the annual tax return. Yes, we now have minimum of four quarterly return followed by at least one annual return. And, as I have mentioned, some individuals will have many more than that to do.
The same system is coming in for limited companies two years later, so company directors may well be spending all of their time trying to send data to HMRC in respect of both their company and personal affairs.
I've been following the Parliamentary and House of Lord Committee hearings on this quite closely and not one representative who has given any evidence to any committee thinks this whole scheme is a good idea in its current form.
HMRC has decided to ignore all this and is blundering on unchecked.
The same system is coming in for limited companies two years later, so company directors may well be spending all of their time trying to send data to HMRC in respect of both their company and personal affairs.
I've been following the Parliamentary and House of Lord Committee hearings on this quite closely and not one representative who has given any evidence to any committee thinks this whole scheme is a good idea in its current form.
HMRC has decided to ignore all this and is blundering on unchecked.
Eric Mc said:
Ironically, it was announced in the 2015 budget by George Osborne as the end of the annual tax return. Yes, we now have minimum of four quarterly return followed by at least one annual return. And, as I have mentioned, some individuals will have many more than that to do.
The same system is coming in for limited companies two years later, so company directors may well be spending all of their time trying to send data to HMRC in respect of both their company and personal affairs.
I've been following the Parliamentary and House of Lord Committee hearings on this quite closely and not one representative who has given any evidence to any committee thinks this whole scheme is a good idea in its current form.
HMRC has decided to ignore all this and is blundering on unchecked.
Remembering this from not long ago:The same system is coming in for limited companies two years later, so company directors may well be spending all of their time trying to send data to HMRC in respect of both their company and personal affairs.
I've been following the Parliamentary and House of Lord Committee hearings on this quite closely and not one representative who has given any evidence to any committee thinks this whole scheme is a good idea in its current form.
HMRC has decided to ignore all this and is blundering on unchecked.
You said:
They are so radical that I may very well call it a day.
You may have a widely applicable point there for all sorts of business owners of a certain youthfulness not just accountants.Eric Mc said:
turbobloke said:
That said, do you know if these well-thought-out plans allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?
It seems to be the other way around. allow for business accounts to remain live on the accountant's system, with only the final submission being made by the business owner who would in theory be able to update their version of the software with the accountant's output just before hitting the button? I suspect that with no software in existence, it's a case of the Patrick Moores..."we just don't know" ?HMRC, for "security" reasons, will only allow the named taxpayer access to their tax account at HMRC. That excludes appointed agents. I guess the only way would be for a taxpayer to appoint power of attorney for their tax affairs to their accountant - which I'm sure no one would really want to do.
It also circumvents security measures designed to protect both parties:
1. Two Step Verification mitigates the risk of passwords being breached and log in attempts from unusual locations.
2. Accessing multiple accounts from one location is a risk indicator. It can lead to accounts being blocked while the behaviour pattern is investigated.
3. Despite advice, it is likely that clients reuse the same password on other sites. The agent could face blame if unauthorised access occurred on a non-HMRC site.
Agents will have their own service through which they can access their clients' digital tax accounts and see the same information as the client.
I have never used somebody else's log-ins to access their data. I hope you did not think that was what I was suggesting?
Under the current system, authorised agents have access to their clients' tax accounts and can submit tax returns of various sorts electronically on their clients' behalf. That has been the case since Self Assessment came in over 20 years ago.
At the moment, HMRC has NOT given any indication as to how agents can access or submit data on behalf of their clients - even if they have been fully authorised to act for the client.
If you have some new information for agent access under the Making Tax Digital system, could you point me in the direction of this information as it would be very useful to know.
Under the current system, authorised agents have access to their clients' tax accounts and can submit tax returns of various sorts electronically on their clients' behalf. That has been the case since Self Assessment came in over 20 years ago.
At the moment, HMRC has NOT given any indication as to how agents can access or submit data on behalf of their clients - even if they have been fully authorised to act for the client.
If you have some new information for agent access under the Making Tax Digital system, could you point me in the direction of this information as it would be very useful to know.
Well that sounds just ferpect. We'd be one of those unlucky people to submit about 20 different items at various times.
The tin-foiled hat cynic in me wonders if this is a thinly veiled attempt to stop professionals giving individuals/sole traders/small businesses tax efficiency so that the revenue increases by default.
The tin-foiled hat cynic in me wonders if this is a thinly veiled attempt to stop professionals giving individuals/sole traders/small businesses tax efficiency so that the revenue increases by default.
We use an accountant and book keeper.
These changes sound like a good idea to me. The idea of needing a highly paid professional to navigate something that is simple (paying tax on money you earn) but made so vastly complicated by the Web of allowances, rules etc is quite ludicrous when you think about it. It will save us about 6k per year.
Everyone having a flat rate of income tax would make it easier as well.
These changes sound like a good idea to me. The idea of needing a highly paid professional to navigate something that is simple (paying tax on money you earn) but made so vastly complicated by the Web of allowances, rules etc is quite ludicrous when you think about it. It will save us about 6k per year.
Everyone having a flat rate of income tax would make it easier as well.
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