Question for the city boys
Discussion
grumbledoak said:
For someone with a degree in Economics and Management and a stated interest in this, you don't seem to know that much about "trading". "Trading" covers quite a range of roles, everything from the "Shouty prat in stripy suit" for which you may already be over-qualified, to the (normally) more reserved serious mathematics geniuses who would generally be qualified in, oddly, maths.
Want to narrow it down a little?
My degree didn't actually cover aspects of "trading" as such, so anything I picked up is purely through my own interest.Want to narrow it down a little?
I'm not that up to speed with every single role of trading admittedly, but i'd like to be able to make my own trading decisions and decide what i'd like to invest in, then choose my price to buy and sell at whilst observing other variables and adapting strategies. Perhaps that specific role doesn't exist though.
What role would you call the "Shouty prat in stripy suit"?
I would be the stripy prat, not so shouty now due to the magic of LIFFE connect. Also take heed of clubsport, the path I have chosen is definitely not for everyone, first year attrition can easily be over 90%. If you want that much freedom about instruments that early on then I have no idea where you would look, I don't really understand what you mean about choosing your bid and offer, in most circumstances taking market price is a very bad idea!
g4ry13 said:
I'm not that up to speed with every single role of trading admittedly, but i'd like to be able to make my own trading decisions and decide what i'd like to invest in, then choose my price to buy and sell at whilst observing other variables and adapting strategies. Perhaps that specific role doesn't exist though.
If you are trying to get into a major bank to be a trader you will, as in any job, start at the very bottom. You are likely to start as, if not look up to, the junior traders (if not the desk assistant). Don't expect to "decide" much of any import for quite a while. "Choosing your price to buy and sell" will come quite a bit later.You could do worse than read this for an overview:
http://www.amazon.com/Fool-His-Money-Investor-Inve...
It is played for laughts rather than a how-to, but it is easy to read, and explains a great deal of many forms of 'trading'.
g4ry13 said:
What role would you call the "Shouty prat in stripy suit"?
When you are in a lap dancing bar on a Tuesday night and have just thrown more cash on the table than your colleage, because you can, check your suit.With apologies to those who either never did, or have got past this bit.
g4ry13 said:
Retard said:
I don't really understand what you mean about choosing your bid and offer, in most circumstances taking market price is a very bad idea!
Entry and exit points I meant.Incidentally I wouldn't pick entry and exit points, but instead have a clear entry and exit strategy, and constantly look for evidence that your strategy is wrong or misguided. Picking points sounds worryingly rigid, almost like the sort of thing a technical analyst would do!
P.S. Never use stops.
Retard said:
P.S. Never use stops.
Really!....Perhaps not the best advice to offer someone starting out in trading, such judgements are best made when you have gained more experience, while learning a system of cutting losses early and rolling stops upwards for succesful strategies may be more beneficial. If you stop yourself early, you can re appraise why the trade didn't work, hopefully with enough capital to trade again,,,,ignoring stops, you run the risk of losing more form a trade than you were hoping to make!clubsport said:
Retard said:
P.S. Never use stops.
Really!....Perhaps not the best advice to offer someone starting out in trading, such judgements are best made when you have gained more experience, while learning a system of cutting losses early and rolling stops upwards for succesful strategies may be more beneficial. If you stop yourself early, you can re appraise why the trade didn't work, hopefully with enough capital to trade again,,,,ignoring stops, you run the risk of losing more form a trade than you were hoping to make!Sure, but you clearly have the experience to allow for that, starting out I imagine it is hard to distinguish a low tick from a tsunami of offers as you have missed an important piece of data or market moving commentary...I appreciate I have little clue, but just felt it better that somebody new to trading learns all the rudimentary basics to stay in the game before they make decisions on which strategy works best for them.
clubsport said:
Sure, but you clearly have the experience to allow for that
Like hell, I've only been doing this for a couple of months! I'd be very surprised if I knew more than you about anything.clubsport said:
starting out I imagine it is hard to distinguish a low tick from a tsunami of offers as you have missed an important piece of data or market moving commentary...I appreciate I have little clue, but just felt it better that somebody new to trading learns all the rudimentary basics to stay in the game before they make decisions on which strategy works best for them.
This is the danger of trading from home, I suppose. If surrounded by traders you're likely to be told that what is going on is significant. If they're friendly, of course...I'm not suggesting holding onto a losing position indefinitely... if you have a pretty good idea why the market is moving past where your hypothetical stop would be, and so can be reasonably sure that it will come back, then I can't see any reason not to hold one so long as you are prepared to take the loss if you are wrong.
Stops will always decrease your expected return from a trade (under certain unrealistic assumptions, anyway).
ETA: I just looked up tradindex, and it seems to be a spread betting thing... those guys really are bucket shops, nothing afaik to stop them setting the spread to something with no resemblance to the market.
ETA Again: FFS, look at those spreads on tradindex! At the moment Euribor March is trading 685-690 on the real market, on tradindex it's 670-700. How the hell do you trade that?
Stops will always decrease your expected return from a trade (under certain unrealistic assumptions, anyway).
ETA: I just looked up tradindex, and it seems to be a spread betting thing... those guys really are bucket shops, nothing afaik to stop them setting the spread to something with no resemblance to the market.
ETA Again: FFS, look at those spreads on tradindex! At the moment Euribor March is trading 685-690 on the real market, on tradindex it's 670-700. How the hell do you trade that?
Edited by Retard on Monday 12th November 09:51
Edited by Retard on Monday 12th November 09:53
Gary. My tuppence.
I went in via the middle office route, product control... it's actually a very well worn path to getting onto a desk. You need to show an interest, and do the P&L job well, also learning VBA is useful.
Generally a junior trader will get to do all of the 'exicting things' ( sorry hint of sarcasm ) like marking options to market with external vol quotes, writing market commentary for the finance bods, chasing up tickets, and general spreadsheet monkey....in other words most of what product control will teach you.
From there you can progress onto the desk and learn to fill orders, talk to clients and get shouted at by some bloke at 7am....if you so desire.
I've wandered around from P&L to risk, to trading, then onto structured finance, and now finally back in risk. So you can move about.
One course I'd recommend is the one at Reading 'Masters in Finance'(?) not because I went on it, but because so bloody many people I've met have been on it, seems that almost all of the intake end up getting decent jobs as there's a pretty good ex-grad network.
HTH.
Edited to add, why not come along the to Dirty Dicks Drinks near Liverpool St on the 22nd, they'll be a few city chaps there so you might get some good advice as well as getting phished and talking about sports cars.
I went in via the middle office route, product control... it's actually a very well worn path to getting onto a desk. You need to show an interest, and do the P&L job well, also learning VBA is useful.
Generally a junior trader will get to do all of the 'exicting things' ( sorry hint of sarcasm ) like marking options to market with external vol quotes, writing market commentary for the finance bods, chasing up tickets, and general spreadsheet monkey....in other words most of what product control will teach you.
From there you can progress onto the desk and learn to fill orders, talk to clients and get shouted at by some bloke at 7am....if you so desire.
I've wandered around from P&L to risk, to trading, then onto structured finance, and now finally back in risk. So you can move about.
One course I'd recommend is the one at Reading 'Masters in Finance'(?) not because I went on it, but because so bloody many people I've met have been on it, seems that almost all of the intake end up getting decent jobs as there's a pretty good ex-grad network.
HTH.
Edited to add, why not come along the to Dirty Dicks Drinks near Liverpool St on the 22nd, they'll be a few city chaps there so you might get some good advice as well as getting phished and talking about sports cars.
Edited by LeTim on Monday 12th November 11:32
Retard, you clearly earnt your sign on! 
...you have experience or at the moment are happy with your trading style, lets not forget the old traders saying "better to be lucky than smart!"
Gary, all I can tell you is this, if you interview with banks and hedge funds about trading roles, at the point when when they ask you what experience you have and what do you know about trading...do NOT say "never use stops",,,it may turn out to be be quite a short interview!
...you have experience or at the moment are happy with your trading style, lets not forget the old traders saying "better to be lucky than smart!" Gary, all I can tell you is this, if you interview with banks and hedge funds about trading roles, at the point when when they ask you what experience you have and what do you know about trading...do NOT say "never use stops",,,it may turn out to be be quite a short interview!
Retard said:
g4ry13 said:
If I took 20 grand to an arcade as you called it, why would I do that rather than just trade from home if the risk of losing it all remains the same?
You'd benefit from economies of scale and pick up some interesting tricks from other traders. Plus there would be much less chance of technical problems. That said, there isn't a hugely compelling reason!If they want you to put your own cash up and you are not just 'renting a desk' then it's basically a scam.
A few will take on a load of kids and train them up in their schedule and then whittle them all down to one or two or none to keep on.
The sensible route is a settlements roll or trade support roll at a respected bank/brokerage that will fund you to do an MBA after a couple of years, from which you move across into managing. It is a tough route but honest and rewarding.
Never put your own money up and never pay for your own education. Both of those are so wrong it's not possible to shout loud enough.
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