Withholding wages
Discussion
OK so this psycho employee of ours resigned a few weeks back. He still had a company laptop and phone, and we asked him to return them.
He didn't. So whilst we were waiting, we didn't issue his P45 or make the finaly salary payment, since we had to see whether or not he was every going to return the laptop.
He emailed me to ask when the final salary, P45 etc would be sorted out and I answered that once the equipment was returned, I'd sort it all out. His reply to that (by email) was that he would drop the equipment off at another engineer's house (about 15 minutes from his house) either during the week or failing that on the weekend.
Anyway, nothing happened and then today I receive a nice "money claim online" thingy with a claim for final salary and travel allowance. I was pretty stunned by this since we had agreed he would return the equipment. At the bottom of the claim form he has stated tha the equipment "is and has been available for collection from his home address since his leaving date".
My head tells me to take a deep breath, sigh, take comfort in the fact that he is clearly a total tosser, pay his money and then go collect the laptop thereby just to avoid any possibility of nastiness, CCJs etc. However my gut instinct is to counterclaim etc for the laptop and give him the same kind of shit to deal with. I don't see why we should vary the terms of our agreement, which were that he would return the equipment first.
Any views? No doubt it is illegal to withhold salary for any purpose, despite the fact that he has in his possession equipment that does not belong to him.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
He didn't. So whilst we were waiting, we didn't issue his P45 or make the finaly salary payment, since we had to see whether or not he was every going to return the laptop.
He emailed me to ask when the final salary, P45 etc would be sorted out and I answered that once the equipment was returned, I'd sort it all out. His reply to that (by email) was that he would drop the equipment off at another engineer's house (about 15 minutes from his house) either during the week or failing that on the weekend.
Anyway, nothing happened and then today I receive a nice "money claim online" thingy with a claim for final salary and travel allowance. I was pretty stunned by this since we had agreed he would return the equipment. At the bottom of the claim form he has stated tha the equipment "is and has been available for collection from his home address since his leaving date".
My head tells me to take a deep breath, sigh, take comfort in the fact that he is clearly a total tosser, pay his money and then go collect the laptop thereby just to avoid any possibility of nastiness, CCJs etc. However my gut instinct is to counterclaim etc for the laptop and give him the same kind of shit to deal with. I don't see why we should vary the terms of our agreement, which were that he would return the equipment first.
Any views? No doubt it is illegal to withhold salary for any purpose, despite the fact that he has in his possession equipment that does not belong to him.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
Not paying him until you get your laptop back is a wise move, but I'd not get all twisted if he expects you to collect it. If the split had been amicable, then it might have been odd, but to expect exemplary responses in difficult circumstances is mad.
I mean, you gave it to him presumably so that he could take it with him, whereever he went. He's duty bound to look after it irrespective of his employment status, and account for it if it's damaged or lost, but it's location was always going to be up to him.
I think you'd be mad to think about transferring funds, until you have your stuff back and in your hands. If you have to give him grief, just let him know the score, and that you havn't got around to picking it up yet. Tell him you will pick it up, when you can, and that if he wants his money sooner, he'll have to bring it back himself.
I mean, you gave it to him presumably so that he could take it with him, whereever he went. He's duty bound to look after it irrespective of his employment status, and account for it if it's damaged or lost, but it's location was always going to be up to him.
I think you'd be mad to think about transferring funds, until you have your stuff back and in your hands. If you have to give him grief, just let him know the score, and that you havn't got around to picking it up yet. Tell him you will pick it up, when you can, and that if he wants his money sooner, he'll have to bring it back himself.
Edited by dilbert on Friday 7th December 13:05
Have you the right to withold his wages?
You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
Eric Mc said:
Have you the right to withold his wages?
You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
Not as simple as it looks. I would pay the little c**t by exchanging a cheque for the laptop - unofficially. If then you find the laptop has been damaged consider your own claim. Hopefully you will at some point in the future be asked to provide an employment reference for him.
Eric Mc said:
Have you the right to withold his wages?
You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
Just for the record, I wasn't *refusing* to hand over the P45 - I just saw that all as part of the "leaving paperwork" which couldn't be done until we knew the status of the equipment.You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
A an employer, I was in similar situation last year and it went to the tribunal despite efforts on both sides to resolve it.
To cut a long story short, unless you have a contract in place that covers the return of company property and final salary arrangements then you are on shakey ground witholding his final pay. Paying him and claiming for the loss/damage for the cost of the equipment is safer legally.
I did put these clauses in my employees contracts and I won, but the decision rested entirely on the terms of the contract.
Speak to ACAS they are very helpful.
To cut a long story short, unless you have a contract in place that covers the return of company property and final salary arrangements then you are on shakey ground witholding his final pay. Paying him and claiming for the loss/damage for the cost of the equipment is safer legally.
I did put these clauses in my employees contracts and I won, but the decision rested entirely on the terms of the contract.
Speak to ACAS they are very helpful.
zadumbreion said:
Eric Mc said:
Have you the right to withold his wages?
You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
Just for the record, I wasn't *refusing* to hand over the P45 - I just saw that all as part of the "leaving paperwork" which couldn't be done until we knew the status of the equipment.You need to thread carefully here as you could end up in front of an Employment Tribunal - or worse.
Unless there was specific mention in the emplyment contract about return of company owned goods being linked to final slalary payments, the two events cannot be linked in this way and witholding of wages cannot be used as a lever.
Refusal to hand over a P45 is a criminal offence and should not occur for ANY reasons.
I feel for you, and would have certainly done the same in the same situation. The points raised already are correct though, legally, you shouldn't withold payment, however this is the exact type of thing that isn't specific in your contracts you should tighten up.
What hasn't been said before is that something smells fishy to me. For me, with the knowledge that to get my money all I had to do is a 15 minute drive - really to fulfil my contract I would have done it. I certainly wouldn't have paid Money Claim Online at least £30 and give myself a load more hassle.
- Unless* there is an issue which means I could not return the company laptop and equipment...
The 'common law' situation around this is that it is your responsibilty to return equipment to your employer before leaving. Indeed, that should be in his contract. It is not your responsibilty to collect the equipment from Timbuktu or anywhere else he decides.
My hunch due to what I have said about the equipment above is that he is bluffing. It would have cost him less to courier the gear to you, so why take you to court!? To take this to trial will cost even more fees. Indeed, the judge should not award court costs to him as he has not given the written warnings of action necessary. Indeed, the judge will also look at the fact that he should have returned the gear himself.
There is also the option that when you reply that the case will be thrown out by the court before hearing - it should be easily resolved without court by him just fulfilling his contract.
Thus, I would make hom sweat. Leave it a week and file the 'Acknowledgement of Service' within the deadline (14 days) which will give you another 14 days to fill out the paperwork.
What kind of figures are we talking here? How much is owed compared to the original cost of the laptop and phone - plus any related setup costs IT wise?
RedCabbage said:
There is an awful lot that is assumed in law, but my experience as an employer has taught me one thing
always put everthing in writing - everything.
Hell yeah. And preferably spend the extra 70p or whatever to get it sent recorded delivery.always put everthing in writing - everything.
If nothing else it is a message of intent...!
I have learned the value of avoiding trouble, so we are sending someone round to collect the laptop tonight. Provided it seems OK, we will then respond to his claim.
(Perhaps I'll counter-claim for the expenses incurred in sending an engineer round to his house to collect the equipment.)
Thanks for all the advice though chaps, it's appreciated.
(Perhaps I'll counter-claim for the expenses incurred in sending an engineer round to his house to collect the equipment.)
Thanks for all the advice though chaps, it's appreciated.
Most of these ideas have crossed my mind.
I do indeed wish to return the compliment in some way, and get even with him - but my mind is over-ruling my heart and telling me just to sort it and make it go away. The guy is a deceitful tosser who was probably put up to it by his brainless yet aggressive partner (I'm sure he doesn't have the balls or the gumption to think up something like this himself) and really I should be very grateful to be shot of him. Which I am.
I wondered if I could make a claim against him for costs incurred in our engineer visiting him to collect the equipment. No doubt that would be classed as "vexatious litigation".
Then I thought I would make the best available use of the 14 days from issue period - which would take us nicely to Christmas - but then the postal services will be all over the place so I can't even time the cheque properly. I will have to send it early to make sure it is received in time.
I know I just need to get over it and move on, but I didn't start my own business to eat sh1t from the likes of him....
I do indeed wish to return the compliment in some way, and get even with him - but my mind is over-ruling my heart and telling me just to sort it and make it go away. The guy is a deceitful tosser who was probably put up to it by his brainless yet aggressive partner (I'm sure he doesn't have the balls or the gumption to think up something like this himself) and really I should be very grateful to be shot of him. Which I am.
I wondered if I could make a claim against him for costs incurred in our engineer visiting him to collect the equipment. No doubt that would be classed as "vexatious litigation".
Then I thought I would make the best available use of the 14 days from issue period - which would take us nicely to Christmas - but then the postal services will be all over the place so I can't even time the cheque properly. I will have to send it early to make sure it is received in time.
I know I just need to get over it and move on, but I didn't start my own business to eat sh1t from the likes of him....
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